Lutz Speaks On STS/ DTS

[Bravada]

Fp115, the numbers quoted by 2002 Caddy are what Reuters got from the manufacturers. They are the most recent numbers, and in the past months, it matters, as the market changes fast. Besides, they've grouped manufacturters by actual concerns, not brands (except for R-N, which are somehow listed separately, but would make global no. 3 together). Denial is not the best way of dealing with reality.

There are several cars coming that no one has seen or heard about.

Even GM. Man, GM announces anything they have 4 years ahead now, they are so desperate. As of now, the Beat is announced NOT to come to the US. Anything else?

As concerns STS and DTS - has GM announced something? For now we know for sure that Zeta is on "indefinite hold", and GM has just fired the team developing it, so basically the platform is dead. Alpha's status is unknown.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Even GM. Man, GM announces anything they have 4 years ahead now, they are so desperate. As of now, the Beat is announced NOT to come to the US. Anything else?

As concerns STS and DTS - has GM announced something? For now we know for sure that Zeta is on "indefinite hold", and GM has just fired the team developing it, so basically the platform is dead. Alpha's status is unknown.

Read the article again. The mini's aren't coming but something else is.

GM hasn't announced a thing, not even that it has been on hold. That is stipulation based on a rumour started here. GM has however announced Alpha's status a week or so ago. Several months ago announced where it will be built too.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

No clue on where they get their numbers from. But they are slightly inaccurate. Honda's and Nissan's are way off for one.

Here are the numbers you should work with:
http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/w...nking-2007.pdf

That's funny, you post they are in 12th and that I don't know what I'm talking about...that I can't count, then you post a link that says they are 10th... Wow they already picked up two spots ...GM math? You should apply in the Finance division. BTW my link are 2008 sales number yours are 2007...

Originally Posted by fp115

1. You going to link me to a rumour?

Nope, here is what Lutz said about the Northstar replacement

GM vice chairman Bob Lutz admits the cancellation "was a direct result of the 35-mpg CAFE legislation."

link1

link2

Link3

How many links would you like? How about this... find me ONE link that says GM is building a 32V replacement to the Northstar that is date stamped after April 2008.

Originally Posted by fp115

2. What is XFE and all other enhancements being done to the Cobalt? Cobalt's sales continue to raise and is still a competitive vehicle. While it will be sold for another 2-3 years, the Cruze will sell along its side in less than 18 months from now.

Those are moves in the right direction... Since the Cobalt's power train was "lacking" BUT the real issue with these cars (G5 too) is the exterior and interior styling and materials quality... Most buyers look at this first... And in this department these cars are very dated.

Originally Posted by fp115

3. Who said I was even talking about the Cruze? There are several cars coming that no one has seen or heard about. And yes the Cruze was sent to market quicker than it should. You seem to think the North America is the only important market. Europe and LAAM are just as important, if not more at this point.

Any facts to back this up or are you posting rumours too?

Originally Posted by fp115

4. Not true again.

This time not from Lutz but from Jim Taylor "The current STS and DTS models will be dropped at the end of their respective product cycles"

Link4

Link5

Link6

Originally Posted by fp115

5. Not true yet again, where do you get these numbers? Read into some of the posts on this website, one person mentioned a date and it was a good one.

They will have several new models by 2011. Of which a few are in the next few months.

The bad news regarding#5 is built into links 4,5 & 6... or just Google "Cadillac DT7 on hold"

How about some details to back up your info? I would LOVE for all of your above info to be right and all of mine, which ALL comes from GM Senior Managers, to be 100% wrong...

There is a major STRATEGIC issue with GM's Cadillac line up... Lets say you are a 30's something CTS owner, who is doing quite well at work or in the market and in 2011 you want to upgrade to something bigger, fancier... (I'd call that person the PRIME DEMOGRAPHIC) So you are that guy, watcha gunna buy? Sadly with GM's Cadillac product placement the answer is, GS, LS, E, A8. See the problem?

[Buick Riviera]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Fp115, the numbers quoted by 2002 Caddy are what Reuters got from the manufacturers. They are the most recent numbers, and in the past months, it matters, as the market changes fast. Besides, they've grouped manufacturters by actual concerns, not brands (except for R-N, which are somehow listed separately, but would make global no. 3 together). Denial is not the best way of dealing with reality.



Even GM. Man, GM announces anything they have 4 years ahead now, they are so desperate. As of now, the Beat is announced NOT to come to the US. Anything else?

As concerns STS and DTS - has GM announced something? For now we know for sure that Zeta is on "indefinite hold", and GM has just fired the team developing it, so basically the platform is dead. Alpha's status is unknown.

The Zeta Platforum is not dead, Gm just cut back on it for now . Now I heard that the STS/DTS replacement was being redsign by a different designer and that was the delay for.

[Buick Riviera]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

That's funny, you post they are in 12th and that I don't know what I'm talking about...that I can't count, then you post a link that says they are 10th... Wow they already picked up two spots ...GM math? You should apply in the Finance division. BTW my link are 2008 sales number yours are 2007...


Nope, here is what Lutz said about the Northstar replacement


link1

link2

Link3

How many links would you like? How about this... find me ONE link that says GM is building a 32V replacement to the Northstar that is date stamped after April 2008.






Those are moves in the right direction... Since the Cobalt's power train was "lacking" BUT the real issue with these cars (G5 too) is the exterior and interior styling and materials quality... Most buyers look at this first... And in this department these cars are very dated.



Any facts to back this up or are you posting rumours too?

This time not from Lutz but from Jim Taylor "The current STS and DTS models will be dropped at the end of their respective product cycles"

Link4

Link5

Link6



The bad news regarding#5 is built into links 4,5 & 6... or just Google "Cadillac DT7 on hold"

How about some details to back up your info? I would LOVE for all of your above info to be right and all of mine, which ALL comes from GM Senior Managers, to be 100% wrong...

There is a major STRATEGIC issue with GM's Cadillac line up... Lets say you are a 30's something CTS owner, who is doing quite well at work or in the market and in 2011 you want to upgrade to something bigger, fancier... (I'd call that person the PRIME DEMOGRAPHIC) So you are that guy, watcha gunna buy? Sadly with GM's Cadillac product placement the answer is, GS, LS, E, A8. See the problem?

The GEN 5 small block V8 engine can be either or have OHV cylinder heads and DOHC cylinder Heads.

[johnstarnes]

Possibly dumb idea...since it seems there remains a substantial market for "luxobarges", like the Town Car that resides on a platform that I think is 30 plus years old, could Cadillac take either the platform for the DTS or STS, and creatively and economically upgrade it, give it a sensuous luxurious exterior, a Northstar engine (until a lux version of E-Flex is developed) and breathe whole new life into it? I vote they drop this letter based nomenclature that evokes no emotion and bring back Brougham and DeVille, Seville. Plausible way to help GM keep from taking 3 steps back after taking 2 forward with the CTS?

[zete]

All I got from Lutz's comments was:

• The car we originally designed is too heavy.
• Whatever comes out next as the DTS/STS has to be lighter.
• The current platform is too heavy, so we have to lighten it.
• That's going to delay things a bit, especially as we don't have Toyota's money problems, we have ours.

So I can see the premium Zeta platform suddenly become more premium as they opt for lighter weight materials and probably lighten up a lot of other things -- seats, bumpers, etc. As Lutz has said before, every little bit of weight helps and shedding 400 - 500 pounds off the Zetas would be a very very good thing for mileage.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by zete

All I got from Lutz's comments was:

• The car we originally designed is too heavy.
• Whatever comes out next as the DTS/STS has to be lighter.
• The current platform is too heavy, so we have to lighten it.
• That's going to delay things a bit, especially as we don't have Toyota's money problems, we have ours.

So I can see the premium Zeta platform suddenly become more premium as they opt for lighter weight materials and probably lighten up a lot of other things -- seats, bumpers, etc. As Lutz has said before, every little bit of weight helps and shedding 400 - 500 pounds off the Zetas would be a very very good thing for mileage.

I think that titanium alloys are lighter than steel but stronger than aluminum...are they simply too exotic and expensive to use to lighten GM platforms in general?

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

I think that titanium alloys are lighter than steel but stronger than aluminum...are they simply too exotic and expensive to use to lighten GM platforms in general?

Titanium is unbelievably expensive. I'll try to find some sales figures later, but I think there's no way Cadillac could profitably use a big amount in something that cost less than $100,000.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by Buick Riviera

The GEN 5 small block V8 engine can be either or have OHV cylinder heads and DOHC cylinder Heads.

Maybe... The first challenge with DOHC heads on a small block case is that the engine gets really tall... So tall that fitting it in a car becomes a problem... Easy to fix you say, we'll just cast a short deck small block... OK... The next problem is that all of the extra gears, chains and what-not on the front of the engine needed to drive the cams makes the engine really long... So long that fitting it in a car becomes a problem... Easy to fix you say... we'll just change the bore centers... So now you have an engine with a short deck and tighter bore spacing... Or a small block that shares as many parts with the current engine as the current motor does with a 1955 Small block.

An engine designer will tell you that it would be easier just to start from scratch. Which hey, is exactly what GM did... That is before they killed the engine...

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by zete

So I can see the premium Zeta platform suddenly become more premium as they opt for lighter weight materials and probably lighten up a lot of other things -- seats, bumpers, etc. As Lutz has said before, every little bit of weight helps and shedding 400 - 500 pounds off the Zetas would be a very very good thing for mileage.

We have a Lutz quote on the Zeta platform too

Link to GM's Blog

Originally Posted by Bob Lutz

We have canceled our plans to build rear-wheel-drive vehicles off the Zeta architecture

One dead end of development after another.

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

We have a Lutz quote on the Zeta platform too

Link to GM's Blog



One dead end of development after another.

This GM blog link is dated March 2005.

[Michael_S]

I remembered correctly: Titanium is incredibly expensive. I worked at a warehouse that shipped metal alloys, and one time I carried a big rod of Titanium into a truck. One of my more experienced coworkers laughed and said the bar was worth well more than any of us earned in a year.

Here's the first website I could find with Titanium pricing:
http://www.advent-rm.com/items.asp?c...enumber=TI2284

On that page, a 3.5 mm thick, 300mm x 300mm (between 1/8 and 3/16 inches thick, 11.8 inch by 11.8 inch) sheet of Titanium is $664. If you buy in bulk, the price per unit drops but not by a lot. To get 1 cubic foot of Titanium, you would need to get about 88 of those Titanium sheets and even at the discount rate it's more than $40,000.

There's a very good reason no automaker uses Titanium extensively in their cars. Even with economies of scale, it's monstrously expensive.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by zete

All I got from Lutz's comments was:

• The car we originally designed is too heavy.
• Whatever comes out next as the DTS/STS has to be lighter.
• The current platform is too heavy, so we have to lighten it.
• That's going to delay things a bit, especially as we don't have Toyota's money problems, we have ours.

So I can see the premium Zeta platform suddenly become more premium as they opt for lighter weight materials and probably lighten up a lot of other things -- seats, bumpers, etc. As Lutz has said before, every little bit of weight helps and shedding 400 - 500 pounds off the Zetas would be a very very good thing for mileage.

Weekend Salutations Zete:

Poor old Bob Lutz, it seems he's backed into a box! How can a Luxury car (meaning excess, anyway) be too heavy? Cadillac is running out of Luxury cars to sell, by the time something is made, GM will be out of business.

Lutz and the other old goats don't realize that their problems are because the Middle Class has lost: Home Equity (Fiat Wealth), Lifestyle supporting jobs, Credit Scores are quickly going south (can't buy). The truly Affluent don't have those issues, but alas Cadillac has only a near luxury car to sell and it's only currently available in a Sedan. BTW the affluent, don't need station wagons, their maids and groundsman use them, and they won't be purchased from Cadillac. Also even if gas goes back up to over $4.00 the affluent are only concerned by supply--not the costs!

Let me apologize for babbling on, but the excuses from GM are getting really old and lame. I want them to produce or file the necessary papers to end their misery!

[Snake420]

Actually I don't think the lack of a dts is a bad thing right now. They know they need it, but are cash strapped.

The one smart thing they did do was invest in the CTS variants to be released in next few yrs. A wagon, coupe, AWD, and possibly a hybrid or LWD model. It can hold the upper end for a while till they get their more pressing priorities like getting the smaller alpha/BTS on the road. The 3 out sells the 5 and so would the alpha. And it would give the CTS room to raise its price ceiling its stuck under.

Then with the SRX and Unibody Escalade, things should round out.