Lutz Speaks On STS/ DTS

[EldoFan]

I'd like to find whichever exec said this.......

'I've seen the next Cadillac STS replacement and it looks damn good... like a ****ing Bentley.'

.....and have him tell Putz-o to either quite beating around the bush or shut the **** up!

[mbukukanyau]

Originally Posted by davidlane

With CAFE cars the size of the STS/DTS are not a doable deal, IMO. I suspect GM realizes this and is reluctant to tell the public the "good old days are over."

This could not be far from true. How is Bentley, 7 Series etc going to look? like an E Class?

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by davidlane

With CAFE cars the size of the STS/DTS are not a doable deal, IMO. I suspect GM realizes this and is reluctant to tell the public the "good old days are over."

It really bugs me that we are all so quick to blame CAFE for all of our problems. No Firebird? CAFE... No GTO? CAFE... No STS? CAFE...

All the while the competition is HAMMERING us with NEW TO MARKET 375HP cars like like the Genesis... How come they can sell a car like that and have ZERO issues with CAFE? Mostly because they have competitive small cars that car be sold with little to no discounts.

The issue at GM still revolves around TRUCKS... the need to sell small cars so they can continue to flog trucks... GM Management hasn't noticed that the truck market is mortally wounded. They are praying it will come back... Heaven forbid they have a profitable, competitive big car that sells... that would mean that they would have to sell even fewer trucks (that aren't selling without ~$4,000 on the hood).

Am I the only person who gets the feeling that Management is "driving" this company while ONLY looking in the rear view mirror?

[emh]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

I have no clue what the hell he just said...
"in the realm"... "but generally".... "there is a tendency"... "in favor of"...

This guy has to be the worlds most wishy-washy ex-marine. Is there no one in GM management who will set any direction? take any form of leadership? be accountable for anything?

As someone who criticized Lutz in the past for saying too much too early about future products, I guess I should point out he gets blamed either way. If he says something definitive, people are like "why the F* is he saying this so early and tipping off the competition". If he doesn't say anything definitive, it's like "why the F* is he so wishy-washy". I'm fine with non-commital answers on future product planning...

Originally Posted by davidlane

With CAFE cars the size of the STS/DTS are not a doable deal, IMO. I suspect GM realizes this and is reluctant to tell the public the "good old days are over."

Gas has always been expensive in Europe and there's still market there for cars the size of STS and DTS (and larger) there. Maybe not as big as it's been in the US, but it exists nonetheless.

[Bravada]

The only cars I can think of the size of the DTS are RR's, Bentleys (the Arnage type, not the "mass-market" Contis) and Maybachs. The DTS is a huge cow, make no mistake.

That said, there is market for large LUXURY cars. The thing is, GM still cannot figure out how to build a luxury car. Cadillac's only OK car is a continuation of a line of small cars started below the "actual Cadillac" in the 1990s.

The problem is also that GM doesn't have a clue and changes product planning everytime wind starts blowing in another direction. What survives are a few core models, sometimes ending up underinvested (Malibu), and some pet projects (Kappa, Volt).

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by Bravada

The only cars I can think of the size of the DTS are RR's, Bentleys (the Arnage type, not the "mass-market" Contis) and Maybachs. The DTS is a huge cow, make no mistake.

That said, there is market for large LUXURY cars. The thing is, GM still cannot figure out how to build a luxury car. Cadillac's only OK car is a continuation of a line of small cars started below the "actual Cadillac" in the 1990s.

The problem is also that GM doesn't have a clue and changes product planning everytime wind starts blowing in another direction. What survives are a few core models, sometimes ending up underinvested (Malibu), and some pet projects (Kappa, Volt).

Weekend Salutations Bravada:

What the Big Three never realized is when depending upon a lower incomed base, there exist a lot of volatility! In the USA, the middle class is really suffering. Most have planned to use the once rising home values to fund lifestyle, this pipe dream has since been extinguished! The job market in the USA has declined to levels almost making the USA a third world country.

The affluent don't have these issues. Most Bentley owners, may for stall a purchase to make another investment or buy a summer villa, but they don't care about fuel costs. This is why GM is missing the boat! They are still gearing up for middle class buyers, that are disappearing, and will not be replaced. The automotive manufacturers that will eventually see a major run up will be: BMW, Mercedes Benz, Jaguar, and Lexus, they are now producing what their buyers want, and can still afford, Luxury!

[big swede]

Originally Posted by megeebee

Actually, Lutz has never been good at this kind of vague, non- answer. Just the opposite, really. He usually says too much.

Perhaps he's been asked by GM brass to be more non-commital.

Nailed it! I think he got his hand slapped after his crash standards comments because that doesn't sound like Bob Lutz to me at all.

[Joe in T.O.]

I don't know about others, but I still love to see a shiny black DTS or STS-V on the road. It is becoming a rare treat!

[jry]

I think that this is typical GM speak. We watched as they dismantled the engine testing gear in Pontiac. Leadership said that they were moving Tool and Die there.
They put 5 Million bucks in improvements at the Flint T&D facility and put a bunch of hi tech engine gear back in Pontiac. Then they say that it may go to Grand Rapids. What do we learn in all of this? The General never really tells you what is going on. They are big on secrets. Everything is proprietary. Maybe they are dreaming up a light, large sedan to surprise the marketplace with. You'll never know. Maybe the Volt battery needs some tweaking, maybe not. You won't know until they are ready to tell you.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

It really bugs me that we are all so quick to blame CAFE for all of our problems. No Firebird? CAFE... No GTO? CAFE... No STS? CAFE...

All the while the competition is HAMMERING us with NEW TO MARKET 375HP cars like like the Genesis... How come they can sell a car like that and have ZERO issues with CAFE? Mostly because they have competitive small cars that car be sold with little to no discounts.

Oh really? Explain BMW's decision for less V8 and more I4. MB will soon follow. Hyundai is very behind on CAFE reqs, would be surprised to see what happens to them in 2015.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

The issue at GM still revolves around TRUCKS... the need to sell small cars so they can continue to flog trucks... GM Management hasn't noticed that the truck market is mortally wounded. They are praying it will come back... Heaven forbid they have a profitable, competitive big car that sells... that would mean that they would have to sell even fewer trucks (that aren't selling without ~$4,000 on the hood).

Am I the only person who gets the feeling that Management is "driving" this company while ONLY looking in the rear view mirror?

Where on earth are you nothing this truck movement? 1 of their 18 vehicles to be released in the next year is a truck. How come all truck projects are put on hold until they can figure out the market? Why are several small cars being rushed to the North American market? Your post is incredibly flawed with falsities. Name me one company that aren't putting out a very large sum of incentives on their trucks. I do believe Nissan and Honda are currently leading the pack on truck incentives. What about Honda rushing their new truck to the market? These are the kind of things you like to ignore, but forget the fact that the truck market accounts for 22% of total sales, much more than just a small percentage.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

Oh really? Explain BMW's decision for less V8 and more I4. MB will soon follow. Hyundai is very behind on CAFE reqs, would be surprised to see what happens to them in 2015.

Notice the slight difference in execution here... BMW: "less V8"; GM: "kill the Northstar replacement". NO luxury V8... Again at a time when we need every sale... you are telling me that if I want a state of the art 32V V8 I should shop at BMW. Can you see why that is a problem?

It will be interesting to see what happens to Hyundai in 2015. They just moved into the 5th largest auto manufacture in the WORLD spot.. This company went from cars that were a "joke" to #5 in less then 30 years... I agree some GM managers are going to be surprised in 7 years... But not in the way you think.

Originally Posted by fp115

Where on earth are you nothing this truck movement? 1 of their 18 vehicles to be released in the next year is a truck. How come all truck projects are put on hold until they can figure out the market?

Its good that GM is not releasing a new truck right now... They don't need to, their trucks are VERY nice, world class, and still profitable. GM knows it is easier to sell a Silverado and make the same profit as an STS... That's why the lack of focus on this car. I have to admit the business case is quite "obvious" spend nothing on trucks and make 2-$3000 per vehicle or spend 100,000,000 to fix the STS and make 2-$3000 per vehicle, knowing that for every STS you sell that's one less truck that you can squeak under CAFE.

The sad part of that accountant POV is that we are neutering the Cadillac division with ONE car that sells and we are moving Cadillac even further "down market" No "big" car, and no new V8 means that Cadillac will become GM's "Acura". What is GM's "vision" for Cadillac? do they have one? Are they trying to be MB? BMW? You can't do that without a "flag ship".. Our flagship is sinking... and Lutz refuses to bail.

Originally Posted by fp115

Why are several small cars being rushed to the North American market?

O'rely! GM's announcement to cancel any update to the "outclassed" cobalt and that it should "soldier on" is rushing small cars to market? I'll just head on down to my local Chevy dealer and order a 2009 Cruze... since they are rushing it to market now... I'll let you know how that goes.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Notice the slight difference in execution here... BMW: "less V8"; GM: "kill the Northstar replacement". NO luxury V8... Again at a time when we need every sale... you are telling me that if I want a state of the art 32V V8 I should shop at BMW. Can you see why that is a problem?

It will be interesting to see what happens to Hyundai in 2015. They just moved into the 5th largest auto manufacture in the WORLD spot.. This company went from cars that were a "joke" to #5 in less then 30 years... I agree some GM managers are going to be surprised in 7 years... But not in the way you think.

Cadillac will still be offering V8, just as BMW will be doing. But read it in whatever way you want, afterall you should be president of GM you sound like you know everything.

#5? Have you not noticed that GM, Toyota, VW, Ford, Fiat, Renault, Honda and Nissan are ahead of them? Maybe counting isn't your forte. Hyundai last I checked was in 12th spot in the world.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Its good that GM is not releasing a new truck right now... They don't need to, their trucks are VERY nice, world class, and still profitable. GM knows it is easier to sell a Silverado and make the same profit as an STS... That's why the lack of focus on this car. I have to admit the business case is quite "obvious" spend nothing on trucks and make 2-$3000 per vehicle or spend 100,000,000 to fix the STS and make 2-$3000 per vehicle, knowing that for every STS you sell that's one less truck that you can squeak under CAFE.

The sad part of that accountant POV is that we are neutering the Cadillac division with ONE car that sells and we are moving Cadillac even further "down market" No "big" car, and no new V8 means that Cadillac will become GM's "Acura". What is GM's "vision" for Cadillac? do they have one? Are they trying to be MB? BMW? You can't do that without a "flag ship".. Our flagship is sinking... and Lutz refuses to bail.

What you said there makes no sense at all. Trucks still account for 22% of the marketshare. Luxury vehicles over $60k barely get more than 2% of the market. To anyone, it would make more sense to invest into a market that has good numbers. Trucks will continue to be sold regardless of gas prices. GM and Ford are in the best position right now as they will keep selling trucks, they have a more loyal clientele. Not only that talking about future products whether coming or not should not be discussed, especially something of this calibre. You are just assuming "guilty until proven innocent" theory.

One car that sells? Cadillac will have much more than one car by 2011. But keep going off rumours and shortsightedness and it is obvious why you have no faith.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

O'rely! GM's announcement to cancel any update to the "outclassed" cobalt and that it should "soldier on" is rushing small cars to market? I'll just head on down to my local Chevy dealer and order a 2009 Cruze... since they are rushing it to market now... I'll let you know how that goes.

Shows your lack of market understanding, but thats alright we need trolls around on these forums. There is a lot more that isn't said on these forums, for that it will actually surprise a few people, but keep the naysers like you chugging along.

[Michael_S]

I don't understand GM's problem here.

The G8 is Zeta, and more spacious in cabin and trunk than the STS. Presumably GM makes a profit selling it for $27,000.

Cadillac-ize the styling. Quiet it down. Add the luxury options. Stretch the car maybe 4 inches, so it matches or beats the DTS on space. Put in the two mode hybrid system. Done.

If GM can profit selling a RWD two-mode SUV hybrid for $51,000, then I'm certain that somewhere between the $27,000 price of a G8 and the $50,000 price of a DTS they can find room to put two-mode into Zeta and still make a profit.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

Cadillac will still be offering V8, just as BMW will be doing. But read it in whatever way you want, afterall you should be president of GM you sound like you know everything.

#5? Have you not noticed that GM, Toyota, VW, Ford, Fiat, Renault, Honda and Nissan are ahead of them? Maybe counting isn't your forte. Hyundai last I checked was in 12th spot in the world.

Hyundai is now number 5 in the world... This is a fact.
Link to the numbers
Counting might not be my forte... But you need to work on your "checking" skills, they haven't been 12th for years

Originally Posted by fp115

What you said there makes no sense at all. Trucks still account for 22% of the marketshare. Luxury vehicles over $60k barely get more than 2% of the market. To anyone, it would make more sense to invest into a market that has good numbers. Trucks will continue to be sold regardless of gas prices. GM and Ford are in the best position right now as they will keep selling trucks, they have a more loyal clientele. Not only that talking about future products whether coming or not should not be discussed, especially something of this calibre. You are just assuming "guilty until proven innocent" theory.

Did you read my post... What I said makes no sense? Then you post something that agrees and supports my POV! LOL! What I said was it does make some sense to, from a pure business case bottom line pov, to sell and market trucks over a Cadillac that I would buy... It just breaks my heart. And it disappoints me that Cadillac and GM are walking (running actually) away from a market that only 7 years ago they dominated. And IMO killing a once great Division

Originally Posted by fp115

One car that sells? Cadillac will have much more than one car by 2011. But keep going off rumours and shortsightedness and it is obvious why you have no faith.


Shows your lack of market understanding, but thats alright we need trolls around on these forums. There is a lot more that isn't said on these forums, for that it will actually surprise a few people, but keep the naysers like you chugging along.

Lets review some facts and I'll post all of the supporting links if you like... I would LOVE you to prove me wrong on each one of these BTW... If they aren't true let us all know...
1) The Northstar replacement is dead... will never happen... The 32V Northstar, once the GEM of GM power-train is now outclassed by V6's it is no longer competitive and is a lame duck, it will die with the death of the XLR and the STS... within two years the older then dirt DTS will be powered by the DI V6...
2) The Cobalt will "soldier on unchanged"... a direct quote from Lutz
3) The 2009/10/11/?? Cruze is not coming here for the next MY or the MY after that... So much for rushing...
4) There are zero plans to fix, refresh or replace the STS.
5) The replacement for the DTS, the DT7 is on hold until 2014 at the earliest

Cadillac will have another car by 2011! FANTASTIC... take a look at the calender... its 2008, A division with "one car" for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010... nice... They should recycle Pontiac's slogan.. "Cadillac is car" too... We could run with that until 2011 when we change it to "Cadillac is two cars"

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Hyundai is now number 5 in the world... This is a fact.
Link to the numbers
Counting might not be my forte... But you need to work on your "checking" skills, they haven't been 12th for years

No clue on where they get their numbers from. But they are slightly inaccurate. Honda's and Nissan's are way off for one.

Here are the numbers you should work with:
http://oica.net/wp-content/uploads/w...nking-2007.pdf

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Lets review some facts and I'll post all of the supporting links if you like... I would LOVE you to prove me wrong on each one of these BTW... If they aren't true let us all know...
1) The Northstar replacement is dead... will never happen... The 32V Northstar, once the GEM of GM power-train is now outclassed by V6's it is no longer competitive and is a lame duck, it will die with the death of the XLR and the STS... within two years the older then dirt DTS will be powered by the DI V6...
2) The Cobalt will "soldier on unchanged"... a direct quote from Lutz
3) The 2009/10/11/?? Cruze is not coming here for the next MY or the MY after that... So much for rushing...
4) There are zero plans to fix, refresh or replace the STS.
5) The replacement for the DTS, the DT7 is on hold until 2014 at the earliest

1. You going to link me to a rumour?
2. What is XFE and all other enhancements being done to the Cobalt? Cobalt's sales continue to raise and is still a competitive vehicle. While it will be sold for another 2-3 years, the Cruze will sell along its side in less than 18 months from now.
3. Who said I was even talking about the Cruze? There are several cars coming that no one has seen or heard about. And yes the Cruze was sent to market quicker than it should. You seem to think the North America is the only important market. Europe and LAAM are just as important, if not more at this point.
4. Not true again.
5. Not true yet again, where do you get these numbers? Read into some of the posts on this website, one person mentioned a date and it was a good one.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Cadillac will have another car by 2011! FANTASTIC... take a look at the calender... its 2008, A division with "one car" for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010... nice... They should recycle Pontiac's slogan.. "Cadillac is car" too... We could run with that until 2011 when we change it to "Cadillac is two cars"

They will have several new models by 2011. Of which a few are in the next few months.