09 DTS and Lucerne

[EldoFan]

This gets me thinking about that one fairly new commercial Caddy put out a while back......(that you can check out here)

I highly doubt it'd happen.....but maybe the 3.6/6spd combo might help to pull some slightly younger folks (younger than the "between 60 and death" crowd) into the DTS??

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

You need at least a few more numbers for comparison and conclusion making.

Some of these would be the following;

1.) Industry performance in general.

2.) More importantly, segment and competitor performance within the segments.

3.) Other nice to haves - fleet/retail,Brand, Brand segment, Corporate, - whats hot and whats not, etc.

4.) Trends in regards to all the above.

As a for instance, calender year 2007 represented a -2.5% sized market compared to 2006.

The drop in these cars was much more than 2.5%. As for the segment, it's small one. These 2 GM entries and the Lexus ES.

As I said in my post, I don't know what the fleet percentages are. But I know they are far in excess of the Lexus ES. That car rose from 75,987 in 2006, to 82,867 for 2007. This was, presumably, due to the new model. The Lexus holds the crown in this department. Apparently, they build a better Cadillac than Cadillac (or Buick).

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Because they still sell a ****ton of them.

Originally Posted by megeebee

Well, a half-ton anyway.
Calendar 2007 sales:

DTS: 51,469. Down from 58,000 in 2006 < - 11.26% >

Lucerne: 82,923. Down from 96,000 in 2006 < -13.62% >

January 2008:

DTS: 2782. Down from 4095 Jan. 07. < - 32.06% >

Lucerene: 4840. Down from 5759 Jan 07. < - 15.96% >

Fleet sales are not separated out in these figures, but I think they're fairly high for these 2.

It's for this reason I doubt any real enhancements aside from color and/or trim until they cease production. New interiors or trim seldom if ever increase the sales of any vehicle. The SRX for example. I would also doubt that GM would spend the money required to put a 6 speed transmission in these cars. The people that buy them simply don't care about such things.
Don't misunderstand my position. I'm very fond of both these cars, myself. I would love to see them both get more modern drivetrains and far nicer interiors. I just don't see it happening.


Source: Automotive News Data Center.

Now that we have a little more 'comparative data', amongst many other things we see that DuSpinnst is correct at a 'full ton'.
We can also now see why both a 'spoiling attack' or even an 'offensive' freshening/ mild 'MCE' is desirable.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by megeebee

The drop in these cars was much more than 2.5%. As for the segment, it's small one. These 2 GM entries and the Lexus ES.

This of course, as you know is BS. You can always spot a Toyota SPIN MEISTER when they try this kind of stretch.

...............That car rose from 75,987 in 2006, to 82,867 for 2007. This was, presumably, due to the new model. The Lexus holds the crown in this department.

Yeah they're holding 'something' alright, although forum decorum prevents an accurate description of what exactly that 'something' is.

Apparently, they build a better Cadillac than Cadillac (or Buick).

So, looking at the numbers below , besides being able to observe that both the new LS460 AND THE ES350 are giving every indication of being both stale and a flash in the pan.......where exactly is your point supported?
......................Jan-08// 2008 YTD
----- CURRENT MONTH//CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE --
...............................................DSR %.. DSR %
...............................................200 8.... 2007.... CHG
..................................AVALON. 4,155.. 6,529 -36.4

TOTAL TOYOTA DIV. PASS. CAR. 83,409... 86,682. -3.8
...................................ES 350. 4,346..... 5,320 -18.3
.........................LS 460/600h L. 1,906..... 3,006 -36.6
...................................GS 350. 1,270..... 1,368.. -7.2
............................GS 460/450h... 210........ 183. 14.8
...............................IS 250/350 3,262..... 3,395. -3.9
TOTAL LEXUS PAS CAR 11,177. 13,574 -17.7
.....TOTAL TOYOTA PASS. CAR.. 94,586.. 100,256.. -5.7
............TOTAL TOYOTA DIV... 151,550.. 153,732.. -1.4
.............TOTAL LEXUS. 20,299.... 22,118 -8.2
.....................TOTAL TOYOTA 171,849.. 175,850.. -2.3

And lets see about that ES350 and monthly trends .....

............... ----- CURRENT MONTH -- ..... -- CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE --
.................................................D SR %............................ DSR%
.........................2007..... 2006.... CHG...... 2007......... 2006... CHG
ES350 (DEC2007).8,005.... 8,736.... -8.4..... 82,867...... 75,987.. 8.7
ES350 (JAN2008).4,346.... 5,320... -18.3

And lets take a look at the 'deceleration' 'event' between DEC2007 and JAN2008.....
8005 - 4346..... 4346/8005 = -45.71%

Continuing on or backward..........
NOV2007 looked like this ...........
ES 350............. 5,902...... 6,678.. -11.6...... 74,862...... 67,251 10.9
OCT2007
ES 350............. 6,516...... 6,357... -1.4....... 68,960...... 60,573 13.4

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

This of course, as you know is BS. You can always spot a Toyota SPIN MEISTER when they try this kind of stretch.

You take that back, right now!

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

......where exactly is your point supported?

Here......

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

..... 82,867...... 75,987.. 8.7
DTS: 51,469. Down from 58,000 in 2006 < - 11.26% >

Lucerne: 82,923. Down from 96,000 in 2006 < -13.62% >

(sales of the ES calendar 2007 vs. DTS/ Lucerne)

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

And lets see about that ES350 and monthly trends ....
ES 350............. 5,902...... 6,678..

(January 2008 sales of ES)

One month does not a trend make.

Listen, no one wants to see a retreat of Toyota more than I do. But as far as the market for large FWD Luxury cars is concerned (that was my assertion), Lexus far outsells either GM entry, even if you don't consider fleet.

If the Lexus ES continues it's decline, and it actually becomes a trend, it would help to bear out my original point that the market for large FWD luxury cars is shrinking. And for this reason, I doubt if there will be anything new on the DTS/Lucerne other than colors and trim. This makes me wonder about the chances for the Lincoln MKS as well. But that's a different subject.......

[MCGARRETT]

But the ES is not a large luxury car, just to point that out. It's smaller than the smallest Cadillac CTS.

The ES is smaller, narrower, lighter that the either the Lucerne or the DTS, it has less interior space, less cargo space, so what is the comparison here?

Not only that, but it is also $10,000 cheaper than a DTS, closer the price of a nicely loaded Camry, which it essentially is.

I could see them making the 3.6 DOHC V6 the base motor for the Lucerne with the 3.6 DI version on the high end models, I dont think they would have the 3.6 DI engine in the base $26,755 Lucerne, unless the new LaCrosse/Regal is nicer and they move it(Lucerne) a little more upscale.

The DTS I dont know about, rummors are that GM wont let the DI 3.6 in a FWD car make the same 304 hp that it does in RWD applications, so unless the FWD variant of the Nstar is going away, what is the adavantage?; will it get better MPG? Probably not. At least not in any significant way.

A comparable 3800lb 3.8 litre Lucernce CXL get 16/25 where the3800lb 3.6 DI CTS get 17/26, yes the CTS has a huge HP advantage over the 197hp Lucerne, but would the 6 speed and 3.6 make a huge difference in MPG for the Lucerne? The 4.6 V8 Cadillac gets 15/23 and it weighs 4000 plus pounds.

Will they make it the base model? Is is something that they are trying to do to make the idea of a V6 large Cadillac more acceptable to Cadillac customers?

Neither the V6 or the 6 speed is the "smoking gun" to make these cars get much better MPG, though i guess that if GM is interested in consolidating transmission production and eliminating the 4T80E 4 speed automatics that are only used in V8 Lucernes and DTS's and using the 6T60E(?) from the Malibu, G6, Aura, etc, etc... I guess that it could help GM save more green. I guess that GM would like to be out of the 4 speed automatic business for mid to large cars, if every Epsilon gets a 6 speed automatic standard, along with both of Lucerne and DTS, I imagine that the 6 speed/3.6 combo will show up on the Impala as well.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by megeebee

You take that back, right now!

OK, - as long as you remember that 'accidentally' using Toyota/Lexus propaganda/spin or 'their' view of the 'world' is just as destructive as doing it deliberately.Friendly fire is a misnomer.

Here......
(sales of the ES calendar 2007 vs. DTS/ Lucerne)
(January 2008 sales of ES)

One month does not a trend make.

OK, lets look at the last four months - and to be fair , I realize you posted this before I got the other month's data up - so lets look at it together.

OCT2007
ES 350............. 6,516...... 6,357... -1.4%....... 68,960...... 60,573 13.4%
NOV2007
ES 350............. 5,902...... 6,678.. -11.6%...... 74,862...... 67,251 10.9%
DEC2007
ES350............ .8,005....... 8,736.... -8.4%...... 82,867..... 75,987.. 8.7%
JAN 2008
ES350............ .4,346....... 5,320... -18.3%........4346.......5320.-18.3%

Don't forget to look at that last column - notice the YTD % IS ALWAYS GOING DOWN from a high at one time of I believe? of just under or over 20.00%? sometime during 2007.Although they ended up nicely improved for Calender Year 2007 @+ 8.7% the last three months show an ever increasing deceleration which JAN2008 CONFIRMS.

Listen, no one wants to see a retreat of Toyota more than I do.< Retreat???? - get some fire in your belly - hope for the ground to open and swallow them up - slowly - after other painful 'events'.> But as far as the market for large < as MCGARRETT CORRECTLY POINTS OUT THIS IS ALL WRONG - THE ES 350 IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS - IT ACTUALLY HAS LESS INTERIOR ROOM THAN THE CAMRY ITS DERIVED FROM - always has - with or without a moonroof/sunroof.Most importantly, there are different buyer demographics and psychographics involved and little cross shopping> FWD Luxury cars is concerned (that was my assertion), Lexus far outsells either GM entry, even if you don't consider fleet.< Because you are mixing classes of vehicles this is not a useful observation. Watch, although in another way or really many other ways they are not comparable, the CTS GOING UP and the ES CONTINUING TO WEAKEN OR STALL is going to handle that any way.>

If the Lexus ES continues it's decline,<its all but certain it will> and it actually becomes a trend,<it has - 4mo. worth> it would help to bear out my original point that the market for large< again, as per MCGARRETT - its NOT large and its a near luxury class product - which the original ES300 helped make popular. The ES 350 'sales shrinkage story' is not just about the important market variables all vehicles face and their effect - its a very troubled product - lots of flaws and problems that are starting to catch up with it.It also helps that this has been a trend at Lexus concerning the ES - THAT THIS ONE (AND THE LAST ONE) HAS MASSIVELY ACCELERATED ie the next generation ES is more messed up then the previous> - FWD luxury cars is shrinking.<depends on how you measure it - and what you want to do with what you measure.'Shrinking' doesn't mean its not viable, and there are other important considerations - as an example regional preferences etc. There is also the future to consider AND THINGS LIKE BUDGETS AND THE OVERALL PLAN.>

And for this reason, I doubt if there will be anything new on the DTS/Lucerne other than colors and trim. This makes me wonder about the chances for the Lincoln MKS as well. But that's a different subject.......<Yes it is and its quite complex.A small refresh/update -even 'defensive' and 'indirect' in nature could be quite useful under the most likely scenarios - for lots of small but significant reasons - especially when summed up and taken as a whole.>

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by MCGARRETT

But the ES is not a large luxury car, just to point that out. It's smaller than the smallest Cadillac CTS.

The ES is smaller, narrower, lighter that the either the Lucerne or the DTS, it has less interior space, less cargo space, so what is the comparison here?

Not only that, but it is also $10,000 cheaper than a DTS, closer the price of a nicely loaded Camry, which it essentially is.

EXACTLY.The closest match up to Buick over there is the Avalon.

I could see them making the 3.6 DOHC V6 the base motor for the Lucerne with the 3.6 DI version on the high end models, I dont think they would have the 3.6 DI engine in the base $26,755 Lucerne, unless the new LaCrosse/Regal is nicer and they move it(Lucerne) a little more upscale.

Maybe - maybe not. All of this depends at least a little on whether or not we are talking about the current versions or say something evolved . If thats the case , it wouldn't be surprising to see maybe 2-3 different DIs basically trading off FE vs Perf and no non DI for the "higher FE" position - at least for certain price slots to start.

The DTS I don't know about, rumors are that GM wont let the DI 3.6 in a FWD car make the same 304 hp that it does in RWD applications, so unless the FWD variant of the Nstar is going away, what is the adavantage?; will it get better MPG? Probably not. At least not in any significant way.

A comparable 3800lb 3.8 litre Lucernce CXL get 16/25 where the3800lb 3.6 DI CTS get 17/26, yes the CTS has a huge HP advantage over the 197hp Lucerne, but would the 6 speed and 3.6 make a huge difference in MPG for the Lucerne? The 4.6 V8 Cadillac gets 15/23 and it weighs 4000 plus pounds.

Right now whether it really makes 'real sense' or a 'meaningful difference', every 1MPG currently has way more 'marketing/sale making' value than it did even just a year or two ago.Compared to 3 - 7 years ago ......

Will they make it the base model? Is is something that they are trying to do to make the idea of a V6 large Cadillac more acceptable to Cadillac customers?

Isn't this part of the often overlooked and hardly ever discussed JAN2008 STS retail sales improvement??
If you look around, the general market is ahead of GMI on 6 vs 8 in many segments."We" tend to be somewhat feature stuck - the common buyer is more flexible on this and is more benefit oriented.
If a V6 has enough of the 'benefits' of a V8 AND a small to nonperceived 'liability' plus better MPG and lower initial purchase cost - thats a winner - right now - and for at least a little while later.

Its just a gut observation - no science to it at all but it seems if you can get at least 20/22 mpg city and 26-27-28-30-32 highway depending on the product segment you pass a bunch of in the market/potential buyers go-no go thresholds and/or the 'I'm starting to get warmed up' and 'I'm excited' about buying this car 'points'. The 20/22 MPG city min. seems to be at least a little more important than dramatic increases over the min. needed for highway.
I guess what I'm trying to say is people want out of the 'teens' most of all.I also wonder if a small but significant part of the current slowdown in the industry is that the buying public isn't being offered enough of the kinds of choices they want in this regard.

Neither the V6 or the 6 speed is the "smoking gun" to make these cars get much better MPG, though i guess that if GM is interested in consolidating transmission production and eliminating the 4T80E 4 speed automatics that are only used in V8 Lucernes and DTS's and using the 6T60E(?) from the Malibu, G6, Aura, etc, etc... I guess that it could help GM save more green. I guess that GM would like to be out of the 4 speed automatic business for mid to large cars, if every Epsilon gets a 6 speed automatic standard, along with both of Lucerne and DTS, I imagine that the 6 speed/3.6 combo will show up on the Impala as well.

Doesn't all this depend on exactly how its executed ??

[MarioBro88]

Originally Posted by kgm777

Anyone have more information about the refreshed 2009 DTS and Lucerne?

"Buick Lucerne: A minor refresh will occur on the 2009 Lucerne. This will include revising the exterior and an all-new interior. The engine lineup will also be revised to include only the 3.6L direct-injected HF V6 mated to a 6-speed automatic."

"Cadillac DTS: Like it's Buick cousin, the DTS gets a slight revisit as well as the 3.6L direct-injected HF V6 and 6-speed automatic."

From Future Product Guide.

What is the 'Future Product Guide?'

[jry]

Are they extending these due to costs involved with debuting a new car? What will the DI 6, mated to a 6 speed with front wheel drive do to the mileage?
Hey, maybe we'll get 35 MPG on the highway and the General will be able to brag about meeting the new CAFE standards, early.
I often thought that if they fixed some of the profile, the DTS would be more acceptable. The front end changes on the '08 makes the face of this car too narrow.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by MarioBro88

What is the 'Future Product Guide?'

It's a GMI thing on the side panel...

[kgm777]

Future Product Guide:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.ph..._Product_Guide

[jfnz24]

I'd just like to see this motor/transmission in a FWD application that they said would never fit/work. What's next, give it to the Impala also?