Your Ideal Pontiac Lineup

[zabraden]

Here's my Pontiac lineup:
Pontiac LeMans - A rebadged Opel Tigra. Not needed in a smaller Pontiac, but fun.
Pontiac Tempest - The Opel Astra sedan. Turbocharged and DI, nothing less. Seems like Pontiac needs a smaller G5 replacement, and with gas prices as they are, this seems pretty important.
Pontiac Vibe - Kick Toyota to the curb. Take the WTCC Ultra concept that was Chevy's, tone it down a bit (not too much,) and make that Pontiac's Mazda3 fighter. It's probably only necessary to have Tempest or Vibe, but both would be nice.
Pontiac Grand Am - G6 replacement, RWD. Rebadged Holden Torana (they need to build it.) Definitely necessary.
Pontiac Grand Prix - The G8. Done deal.
Pontiac Bonneville - Holden just showed a really powerful HSV W427 version of the Commodore. Badge that mother as the Bonneville GXP and bring it on over. Not really needed, but would really cement Pontiac's standing as the true performance brand.
Pontiac GTO - Holden Coupe 60. I believe this is the most important vehicle in the whole Pontiac lineup, some might disagree.
Pontiac Solstice - Keep it comin', great vehicle.
Pontiac Firebird - 2+2 coupe on Camaro platform, NOT RETRO. This will keep it from getting too close to Camaro. Top of the line is Trans Am, equals GT-R in performance. Much like Bonneville and GTO, not a necessity, but would show what Pontiac is truly capable of, and isn't that the point of keeping it around?

[jmlee0695]

g5-
delta II based fwd 2.3 turbo 4 cyl coupe
g6-
alpha based rwd midsize coupe and sedan. 2.3 turbo,3.6 di v6
g8-
current but add coupe,wagon,gxp
solstice-
add coupe gxp coupe
g7-
rwd biased awd small suv. turbo 2.3 gt,turbo 3.6 di gxp
vibe-
made by GM. awd small wagon. 1.4 turbo,2.3 turbo

[jaywestfall]

Just get the G6 to Alpha yesterday. This upcoming new release of the Delta version is a waste of time and resources. It is not a performance player, got it?

[schmallz]

SWB Alpha Sports Car
Solstice(Coupe/Conv.)
220hp 2.4L I4
310hp TT 2.0L I4

SWB Alpha Sub-Compact
SunFire(Sedan)
130hp 2.0L I4 15,000
220hp 2.4L I4 19,000
310hp TT2.0L I4 23,000

LWB Alpha Compact
Grand Am(Sedan) Trans Am(Coupe/Conv.)
220hp I4 (20,000)
310hp 2.4L I4 (25,000)
400hp DI 5.3L V8 (30,000)

Zeta Mid size
Grand Prix(Sedan) GTO(Coupe)
310hp TT2.4L I4 (26,000)
400hp DI 5.3L (32,000)
490hp DI 6.2L (38,000)

Zeta Full Size
Bonneville(Sedan)
400hp DI 5.3L (33,000)
490hp DI 6.2L (40,000)
580hp LS9 (47,000)

[jmlee0695]

Re-DO-
g3-kappa II sedan 2.0 turbo 260 hp
g5-delta II 2.0 turbo 4 cyl 260 hp coupe, sedan,2.3 turbo 300 hp
g6-epsilon II based 2.3 turbo,3.0 turbo v6 coupe,sedan,conv.
solstice-kappa II coupe and conv.2.0 turbo,2.4 ecotec
g8-2.3 turbo 4 cyl,3.6 di v6,6.0 v8,6.2 v8 add coupe
vibe-delta II based hatchback 2.0 turbo

[T'Cal]

This is Pontiac's second attempt at alpha-numeric designations. Foolish! Anyone remember the T1000 (Chevette), the J2000 (Cavalier/Sunbird), or the 6000 (Celebrity)??? They almost called the Fiero the P3000!! I like the historic names.

Tempest: a FWD compact coupe and sedan, powered by a turbo 1.4L I4. $15k-22k (platform shared with Chevy Cruze)

Safari: a RWD compact two door 2+2 sport wagon, powered by a 2.2L I4, a 2.4L I4, and a turbo 2.0L I4. $25k-30k (kappa platform)

Banshee (nee Solstice): a RWD 2 seat sports car, targa and convertible $25k-32k (kappa platform)

Grand Am/GTO: a RWD midsize five-passenger coupe and sedan, powered by a 3.9L V6 (GA SE), a 5.3L V8 (GA GT), and a 6.2L V8 (GTO coupe/GA GXP sedan) $27k-35k (short-wheelbase G8 platform)

Grand Prix (nee G8): a RWD fullsize five-passenger sedan powered by 3.9L V6 (SE), a 5.3L V8 (GP GT), and a 6.2L V8 (GP GXP) $29k-38k (long-wheelbase G8 platform)

[ksr]

There's a lot of room for improvement overall.

But stick a new Firebird in the lineup, based of course on the Camaro, or alternately, a G8 coupe, and the whole lineup suddenly looks a lot better. I really think this alone gives Pontiac legitmacy again.


G6 coupe & convertible
G8
Solstice
Firebird
Vibe
G5 (with the Cobalts turbo option)

This isn't a bad lineup, provided that the G5 and G6 gets significant upgrades in the near future.

[ARCANGEL]

Dead

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by ARCANGEL

Dead

Damn you ARCANGEL!

I was gonna post...


"My Ideal Pontiac Lineup":









(crickets chirping)





Okay I joke, but sadly Pontiac is even worse off than Olds was a decade ago: lost, without direction, and off of most buyers' radars. And Oldsmobiles were distinctive (Sillywet aside), not the rebadge-mania over at Pontiac.

But if Pontiac were to stick around, it'd only work along zabraden's lines... axing Saturn and folding it into Pontiac. Pontiac should be no more than the N/A arm of Opel-Holden. The only catch: with the majority of the American public, the Pontiac name conjures images of either sloppy rental cars or hideously vulgar becladded mulletmobiles. That screaming chicken left an indelible mark in the public's psyche. It would be VERY difficult to get an import buyer to walk into a Pontiac showroom, and the brand's traditional blue-collar customer base aren't likely to flock to foreign designs.

The question is whether or not, outside of fan circles, the Pontiac name can be revived, or even reshaped with a new, taut, lean, image.

All these "sporty RWD" products that one is quick to conjure as part of a Pontiac lineup, would serve just as well as Chevrolets, and would likely sell better through the Bow-Tie dealers. If the big Holdens had come here as a revived Impala/Caprice duo, with the Ute thrown in as a revived El Camino, they'd probably be flying off dealers' lots. Put the "Holden 60" into production, slap a Monte Carlo badge on it, and watch NASCAR fans spray their jeans on the way to the dealership, chequebook in hand...

[jmlee0695]

MY IDEAL PONTIAC LINE UP RE-DO

Pontiacs are fwd/awd/rwd CARS that have sportier handling and suspensions than chevies or saturns

G3 13k-16k
Gamma II Sub-compact fwd/awd coupe,sedan,3 dr hatch
GT-1.4 4 cyl 110 hp
GTP-1.4 turbo 4 cyl 140 hp
GXP-2.0 turbo 4cyl 220hp

G4- 16k-25k
Delta II sedan,coupe fwd/awd
GT-1.4 turbo 150 hp
GTP-1.6 turbo 175hp
GXP-2.0 turbo 275hp

Vibe 16.5k-25.5k
Delta II 3 & 5 dr hatch fwd/awd
GT-1.4 turbo 150hp
GTP-1.6 turbo 175 hp
GXP-2.0 turbo 275 hp

G6- 23.5k-28.5k fwd/awd
Epsillon II sedan,coupe
GT-1.6 turbo 175 hp
GTP-2.0 turbo 275hp
GXP-3.6 di v6 305 hp

G7- 26k-36k
Alpha sedan,coupe rwd/awd
GT-2.0 turbo 275hp
GTP-3.0 turbo v6 340hp
GXP-3.6 di turbo v6 400hp

Grand Prix 29k-40k
Zeta II sedna,coupe,wagon rwd/awd
GT-2.0 turbo 4 cyl 280 hp
GTP-3.6 di v6 305 hp
GXP-LS3 v8 6.2 liter 420 hp
GXD-4.5 liter C-max diesel 330 hp

Solstice 23.5k-30k rwd/awd
Alpha based roadster
GT-2.0 turbo 200hp
GTP-2.0 turbo 230hp
GXP-2.0 turbo 275 hp

[2b2]

thought I posted the Pontiac part of an old BPGmc ideal lineup
but guess I didn't cuz it was basically just the 3 Rwd cars + 1 shared F-Awd model
but since that's gotten fleshed-out and more complex/complicated/complete
ref: "My/Your Ideal 'GM-I' Lineup: GM-Integrated: BPGmc ± ?" thread
Here's my current thinking

PONTIAC < webpage link for other brands, colored charts!, and more info
G8, re-NAMEd!
Torana
Solstice, nextgen not nec. a 2 seater
^ all built in NorthAmerica

PLUS___________________________
Bonneville (top performance version of ParkAvenue)
GrandPrix (ditto ^ of Cutlass-Insignia**)

ALSO, since Saturn would join BPGmc ,
Safari-GXP (top performance version of a new Ion-based Cuv: "Safari")
LeMans (top performance version of the new Ion)
Vibe-GXP (top performance version of an Astra-based Cuv: "Vibe")
Tempest (top performance version of the Astra)
( Corsa-based Cuv omitted as inappropriate for now )
Corsa-GXP (top performance version of the Corsa)
these GXP's & RedLine replacements would be more "Powered by Pontiac" than pure Pontiacs
(and advertised as such);
but help to preserve Pontiac's sales volume...
...hopefully without diluting the reputation the first 3 (or 5) models will achieve.

** Cutlass would be shared by Pontiac = "Grand Prix" Pkg. - badging optional
Buick "Cutlass-Insignia" = top-euro-trim +1... or +2
and Saturn = plain "Cutlass"
(the Oldsmobile name would not be resurrected... ...yet)

[avro206]

1. Dump all these silly "G" names. GM lets go of good names for no reason.

2. Have a compact FWD car. Substaintly different body work then the Cruze--and a Pontiac only 2dr hatch version (4 dr as well)


3. Give Pontiac an Alpha RWD platform but not Chevy. 4dr and 2dr
2.4L DI--maybe a 2.0L LNF--3.0 HF V6 and maybe a Turbo above that.
Maybe Tempest for a name.

4.Keep the G8--rename. Add in the 3.0HF V6 for better mileage.
3.6L DI optional. GT gets a 360hp 5.3L--GXP S/C 5.3L 425hp.

Need some 2dr RWD coupe...either Trans Am (no V6 Firebirds--Just Formulas and TAs) or GTO.


I could dream up wild things but with the econonmy and rising CAFE I think my ideas would retain very good performance and get better mileage.

[t-rex]

From my 20yo son...

He says we're all wrong. If Pontiac sticks around it should be molded into a Nissan competitor, aimed straight at young buyers. Seems Nissans are particularly popular with the under-25 crowd because they have a slightly sportier image than boring "grandpa" brands like Toyota. Kids his age wouldn't touch a Camry with a ten-foot pole. The Altima and XTerra in particular are sought after by his generation. Saturns have a bit of a "chick's car" image with young men.

Thus, he feels a proper Pontiac lineup should consist of a small coupe to battle the Civic, but NOT simply a two-door version of a sedan like the G5. They're not easily fooled. The G6 needs a complete overhaul and pitched straight at the Altima. The Solstice and Vibe can remain, but NO OTHER HATCHBACKS. Young people HATE hatchbacks, but he sez sportwagony sort of things like the Vibe are cool enough.

And this will make Poncho fanatics cringe but, he feels Pontiac is in the best position to offer something to battle the Jeep Wrangler and Nissan X-Terra; that is, SUV's that are practical everyday drivers, but have real offroadability, even if they'll never, ever be driven off tarmac. Badging these sort of vehicles as GMC's would alienate young buyers, who associate that brand with older buyers.

And he liked my suggestion of making a coupe-like crossover like the Daewoo T2X. It's SUVish enough, but its styling would clearly set it apart from the grocery-getters like Escape, CRV, etc.

So a Nissan-fighting Pontiac would look like ...

• Vibe
• Proper coupe to replace G5
• Altima competitor (redesigned G6)
• Solstice
• Coupe-like crossover (Daewoo T2X)
• Jeep-like crossover or SUV (Pontiac-ified Hummer HX?)
• X-Terra like rugged compact SUV (but not as small as Grand Vitara); could replace the Hummer H3?

He felt because Pontiac is SO FAR off the radar of most young buyers, that it effectively has NO image, and thus GM would have a chance to remold the brand's image to aim it at young buyers.

He kinda makes sense. One of GM's problems, much like Toyota, is that it's having difficulty bringing in the younger buyers. With Saturn pricing itself out of young budgets, and Chevrolet definitely unhip, maybe GM should capitalise on nabbing these "Echo Boomers" with Pontiac. It's possible they'll be a much larger, and more affluent, buying demographic than the hairy, blue-collar rebel type buyer that's typified Pontiac's image for the past 40 years...

[avro206]

Originally Posted by t-rex

From my 20yo son...

He says we're all wrong. If Pontiac sticks around it should be molded into a Nissan competitor, aimed straight at young buyers. Seems Nissans are particularly popular with the under-25 crowd because they have a slightly sportier image than boring "grandpa" brands like Toyota. Kids his age wouldn't touch a Camry with a ten-foot pole. The Altima and XTerra in particular are sought after by his generation.

Thus, he feels a proper Pontiac lineup should consist of a small coupe to battle the Civic.

And this will make Poncho fanatics cringe [/list]

well he did make me cringe! (the truck thing)
Chevrolet/GMC can handle that---we don't need mindless replication of products across all GM's brands.

He knows the Sentra has 4 doors right? But he wants only a 2dr compact from Pontiac?

I totally agree--most would--Toyotas suck--old boring cars.

If Pontiac can do RWD mid-szied Alpha--thats far better then FWD.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by avro206

well he did make me cringe! (the truck thing)
Chevrolet/GMC can handle that---we don't need mindless replication of products across all GM's brands.

I thought that too, but his reasoning is that the vehicles aimed at his demographic all need to be grouped in the SAME BRAND. Spreading them out amongst the divisions wouldn't be wise. GMC more so than Chevy is considered an "old people" brand, even though kids his age love the Denali. But I got the feeling they're much more model-oriented than brand-oriented. Plus, neither Chevy nor GMC offer anything that competes with Wrangler and X-Terra, so it would be an opportunity for Pontiac to enter that segment without duplicating anything from other divisions. Especially now that Hummer is dead. He also told me that Hummer would have been perfect for these "youth" SUVs, and that the brand should have been paired with Pontiac, with Pontiac selling the cars, and Hummer the SUVs. But with Hummer out of the picture, he doesn't see any problem with such vehicles being Pontiacs.

Most of his crowd don't give a crap about Pontiacs of yore. They've grown up with even BMW and Benz making SUV's, so the thought of a Pontiac SUV doesn't seem any more odd than a Nissan SUV, a Subaru SUV, a Buick SUV, etc.

Now we're talking about kids who know cars, but tend to focus just on newer vehicles. He feels hanging on Pontiac's past is pointless unless GM doesn't expect anybody under 30 to ever buy one. Apparently retro is quite "dead".

He knows the Sentra has 4 doors right? But he wants only a 2dr compact from Pontiac?

Most kids his age buying a Sentra-type car from GM would just buy a Cruze. A Pontiac-badged model would be pointless. He felt the Cruze was a worthy competitor. But when it comes to compacts, he says kids his age want coupes, not sedans, and those buying sedans don't care if it's a Chevrolet or Pontiac or whatever. If you look at Civic sales, the coupe comprises a healthy chunk, much like the Cavalier did in its heydey (two-thirds of Cavvy sales), so I think his reckoning is dead-on. And they're BEYOND not fooled by rebadges. In fact I think his age is more bothered by this than us older people — conditioned to decades of Monarchs, Diplomats, etc — are. A Pontiac-badged Cruze would be a complete joke, because they'd all know it was just a Chevrolet.

As for an Alpha Pontiac... they don't care if its FWD or RWD. He feels if GM goes ahead with Alpha, it should be the size and price of a Jetta (another car popular with his demographic) and Pontiac should market it straight at the Jetta's and Mazda3's throats.

Now I don't know how representative he is of his age group. I'm sure kids from affluent families, attending Duke University, might very well have different tastes than a 20-yo who is, say, in the military, or works in a blue collar industry.

But I've noticed since he was old enough to drive, that all his compadres seemed to be drawn to the same half-dozen or so vehicles. Civic Coupe. Altima. XTerra. Jetta. Wrangler. Infiniti G35 (at least for the really affluent kids). etc. etc.

I'm just throwing ideas around. Basically what he's describing is where I've always thought Saturn should have been: aimed at the young buyer, with a wide range of affordable vehicles that are hip and cool. With Saturn probably going out the door, maybe it's in GM's best interest to do with Pontiac what it should have done with Saturn.

But I'm convinced trying to reinvent Pontiac based on the brand's past image will be a dreadful mistake. The customer base simply isn't there. Those of us conditioned to a Pontiac image based in the 1960s and 1970s might not be the people who should be reforming Pontiac. Maybe it's the young kids, the very demographic GM has been unable to tap into since Saturn's early years, who should determine where Pontiac goes. GM desperately needs a brand with appeal to the Jetta/Wrangler/Altima crowd.