Where is Pontiac's ashes in all this?

[TransAmJim]

Honestly.......there's something rotten in denmark about this whole thing. There have been more than one or two inquiries into outright buying Pontiac from the Old GM Liquidation sale to which New GM ALWAYS replies: "Sorry, but Pontiac is NOT FOR SALE" I'm gonna ask again....WHY THE HELL NOT? Afraid someone else will capitalize on G6 sales...anyone who isn't a Pontiac affectionado wouldn't realize that the G6 is one of the best reviewed best selling cars in America....and that's no bull.

Now we hear that Delorean is looking into buying the Solstice rights AND the manufacturing plant as well which would keep hundreds of people still gainfully employed. Sounds like a GREAT deal to me since GM scraped the Solstice/Sky a couple weeks ago. Maybe GM will squash that too for a fear that Delorean will produce a winner which will be a big ego smasher like the Toyota MR2 was to the Fiero.

Oh and I disagree with comments above as to when they decided to kill Pontiac. That happenned the day the Firebird was killed and the Aztec was born. Not to mention that the GTO was NOT a GTO other than badging. Poor ugly designing out of Pontiac and designers should be ashamed of themselves.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

Honestly.......there's something rotten in denmark about this whole thing. There have been more than one or two inquiries into outright buying Pontiac from the Old GM Liquidation sale to which New GM ALWAYS replies: "Sorry, but Pontiac is NOT FOR SALE" I'm gonna ask again....WHY THE HELL NOT? Afraid someone else will capitalize on G6 sales...anyone who isn't a Pontiac affectionado wouldn't realize that the G6 is one of the best reviewed best selling cars in America....and that's no bull.

It is bull, the G6 is a fleet special. Plus it's in its fifth model year, can't keep it around forever.

GM failed to sell Saturn for only $100M and that included a top-notch dealership network. As the Penske deal showed, there's no manufacturer interested in bringing in imported cars under an established brand.

My guess is that the Pontiac trademarks alone, with no dealers, and no vehicles, wouldn't fetch enough money to make a sale even worthwhile. GM can easily license the Pontiac trademarks to T-shirt sellers and other people who might have some use for it.

[zete]

It's amazing how this keeps coming up -- namely, that somehow Pontiac could have been saved.

As has been stated, Pontiac was at death's door before the economy bankrupted GM and the ATF decided that Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer had to go.

The only way I could have seen Pontiac surviving is as an utter niche brand. It's performance pedigree was long gone before the G8 and Solstice arrived. It was a shell of its former self, just a bunch of rebadged Chevrolets to appease dealers who wanted Pontiac to be a full-line brand.

If anyone wants to be utterly honest, the moment GM made Oldsmobile, Buick, and Pontiac "full-line brands" was the moment they were shoved down the road to irrelevancy. The notion of pushing as much iron through each channel as if it were toothpaste brands is what resulted in the problem. Without sufficient diversification and distinction more and more people realized and determined they were unwilling to pay a premium for an Olds, a Pontiac, or a Buick. In fact, it got so bad that folks were more and more unwilling to pay extra for Cadillac.

Now GM has at least a chance of ensuring long term relevancy. Sure, Pontiac is gone but so is Olds, which I always loved. I'd love to see a proper Olds Cutlass done but it isn't going to happen.

So we can all grieve the loss of Pontiac -- and Olds, Saturn, and the rest -- but at least GM has 3 proper core automobile brands in Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac. And position correctly each can provide the buying public what they want: affordable transportation/performance, understated luxury/performance, and ultimate luxury/performance. Can GM move fast enough to move the three brands apart far enough for it to matter? We'll have to wait and see.

But Pontiac is gone. It's obit was written in the summer of '08. The body was simply placed into the coffin early courtesy of the ATF, the economy, and the insolvency of the old GM.

Or, to look at it another way: other than the G8 -- which was late to the game -- what Pontiac truly was a Pontiac? Which one exuded performance? Which one earned the respect of the media and the buying public? There was the G8 and the Solstice. Nothing else. It was that bad. We all just have to face up to facts.

[FoMoCo Fan]

I still think there's an automaker from China that would love to buy the Pontiac name and logo...

[TransAmJim]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

I disagree with comments above as to when they decided to kill Pontiac. That happenned the day the Firebird was killed and the Aztec was born. Not to mention that the GTO was NOT a GTO other than badging. Poor ugly designing out of Pontiac and designers should be ashamed of themselves.

Originally Posted by zete

It's amazing how this keeps coming up -- namely, that somehow Pontiac could have been saved.

As has been stated, Pontiac was at death's door before the economy bankrupted GM and the ATF decided that Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer had to go.

The only way I could have seen Pontiac surviving is as an utter niche brand. It's performance pedigree was long gone before the G8 and Solstice arrived. It was a shell of its former self, just a bunch of rebadged Chevrolets to appease dealers who wanted Pontiac to be a full-line brand.

If anyone wants to be utterly honest, the moment GM made Oldsmobile, Buick, and Pontiac "full-line brands" was the moment they were shoved down the road to irrelevancy. The notion of pushing as much iron through each channel as if it were toothpaste brands is what resulted in the problem. Without sufficient diversification and distinction more and more people realized and determined they were unwilling to pay a premium for an Olds, a Pontiac, or a Buick. In fact, it got so bad that folks were more and more unwilling to pay extra for Cadillac.

Now GM has at least a chance of ensuring long term relevancy. Sure, Pontiac is gone but so is Olds, which I always loved. I'd love to see a proper Olds Cutlass done but it isn't going to happen.

So we can all grieve the loss of Pontiac -- and Olds, Saturn, and the rest -- but at least GM has 3 proper core automobile brands in Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac. And position correctly each can provide the buying public what they want: affordable transportation/performance, understated luxury/performance, and ultimate luxury/performance. Can GM move fast enough to move the three brands apart far enough for it to matter? We'll have to wait and see.

But Pontiac is gone. It's obit was written in the summer of '08. The body was simply placed into the coffin early courtesy of the ATF, the economy, and the insolvency of the old GM.

Or, to look at it another way: other than the G8 -- which was late to the game -- what Pontiac truly was a Pontiac? Which one exuded performance? Which one earned the respect of the media and the buying public? There was the G8 and the Solstice. Nothing else. It was that bad. We all just have to face up to facts.

I completely disagree with you. I don't know much about Pontiac's history in Canada, but if you use your chain of thought.....the demise of Pontiac started in the early 1960's. I don't know what you would call a full line of cars, but I'd say Pontiac has had a full line since then. Of course that changed when GM killed Pontiac engines and went to corporate engines. But honestly, GM then killed Pontiac design......the sexy lines were gone and they looked like rebadged chevys, but the pontiac was always better looking than the chevy....ALWAYS. I've stated before, when I bought my Ram Air TA in March 2001, I had been searching since December 2000 and couldn't find any that weren't already sold, or had been orderred by someone. I found a few automatic Trans Ams but no Ram Airs. EVERY dealer I visited or contacted said the same thing. "As soon as we get them they're gone!" I ended up getting mine when it ended up at Burns Pontiac in Marlton NJ after it was in the Philadelphia New Car Auto show floor.

During my search, I did go to Chevy dealers as well to see if anybody could find me a lead and you know what I did find. ABOUT A TRILLION OF THOSE GOD UGLY Z28 LEXUS LOOKING CAMAROS! They couldn't give them away!

Who killed Pontiac? Management who were paid way more than they're worth and didn't have a clue what Pontiac was, is and always should have been.

Feel free to quote me. I've earned the right to bitch...GM has gotten plenty of my money over the years....more than they deserve with the loyalty they've shown me personally.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

I completely disagree with you. I don't know much about Pontiac's history in Canada, but if you use your chain of thought.....the demise of Pontiac started in the early 1960's. I don't know what you would call a full line of cars, but I'd say Pontiac has had a full line since then.

I think you're right that Pontiac was always GM's "other mainstream brand". However, Zete is also correct that GM pushed Buick and Olds downmarket in the 70s/80s. GM went from having 2 mainstream brands in the 60s to having 5 (including Saturn) in the 90s, and a lot of brand identity got lost in the shuffle.

[TransAmJim]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

I think you're right that Pontiac was always GM's "other mainstream brand". However, Zete is also correct that GM pushed Buick and Olds downmarket in the 70s/80s. GM went from having 2 mainstream brands in the 60s to having 5 (including Saturn) in the 90s, and a lot of brand identity got lost in the shuffle.

I can agree with that.

[HoeyHimself]

So if GM still holds the IP of Pontiac, that means there IS a chance we could some day see another Firebird!

[TransAmJim]

I would certainly hope so. We are getting the kit car the beginning of next year, but a real Trans Am would be best somewhere down the road. We'll be waiting an extra long time if we wait for NEW GM to bring Pontiac back. This is why they should just sell it to someone who does want to develop the brand by itself.

Sell the designs and any leftover equipment for the Pontiac motors with the whole thing. 301, 326, 400.

Can anyone tell me a GOOD REASON why not?

[hotrod747]

The fact that GM doesn't want to sell Pontiac lets me know that they are very much aware of the potential of the brand, and they are afraid someone else will capitalize on that opportunity making the profit. This also tells me that there may still be a Pontiac brand in GM's near future productuion. Of course, though, the question is when? I don't think GM will just hang on to the brand and not try to profit from it unless they had some kind of plans for it.

[solman98]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

I completely disagree with you. I don't know much about Pontiac's history in Canada, but if you use your chain of thought.....the demise of Pontiac started in the early 1960's. I don't know what you would call a full line of cars, but I'd say Pontiac has had a full line since then. Of course that changed when GM killed Pontiac engines and went to corporate engines. But honestly, GM then killed Pontiac design......the sexy lines were gone and they looked like rebadged chevys, but the pontiac was always better looking than the chevy....ALWAYS. I've stated before, when I bought my Ram Air TA in March 2001, I had been searching since December 2000 and couldn't find any that weren't already sold, or had been orderred by someone. I found a few automatic Trans Ams but no Ram Airs. EVERY dealer I visited or contacted said the same thing. "As soon as we get them they're gone!" I ended up getting mine when it ended up at Burns Pontiac in Marlton NJ after it was in the Philadelphia New Car Auto show floor.

During my search, I did go to Chevy dealers as well to see if anybody could find me a lead and you know what I did find. ABOUT A TRILLION OF THOSE GOD UGLY Z28 LEXUS LOOKING CAMAROS! They couldn't give them away!

Who killed Pontiac? Management who were paid way more than they're worth and didn't have a clue what Pontiac was, is and always should have been.

Feel free to quote me. I've earned the right to bitch...GM has gotten plenty of my money over the years....more than they deserve with the loyalty they've shown me personally.

The Trans Am bunch were nothing more than a rebadged Chevy. Whether or not you like the Pontiac version better or not, can't argue with facts. The Solstice was a rebadged Saturn and the G8 was nothing more than a rebadged Holden. Pontiac was only rebadges and was nothing more than a walking zombie for decaded.

Who's to blame is a totally different story. But it basically falls to money....

[TransAmJim]

Originally Posted by solman98

The Trans Am bunch were nothing more than a rebadged Chevy. Whether or not you like the Pontiac version better or not, can't argue with facts.

From 1982 on that is basically true....to a point. However there were "Pontiac Enhancements" on every one. From interior design athstetics to better handelling and many limited models. (remember the 89 GTA with the Grand National motor) Nose and tail designs were completely different, not to mention that from 82 on Firebird had pop up headlights till the end of the road. In the 1970's the only thing they REALLY shared was the chasis and trunklid. Rear fenders on the Firebird were rounded and sleak looking while the camaro has a visible hard line. The Door skins were slightly diffrent and the front fenders are NOT interchangable as the camaro's are rounded up to the hood while the Firebird's flare up higher then hug down to the hood. Hoods have never been shared. Interiors other than the actual seat frame/cushions, door handles, rear kickers and carpets are completely different. Not to mention the plethora of different power combinations offerred in the Firebird thru the years from it's first introduction.

If sharing a chasis makes them the same car, then both the Camaro and the Firebird are nothing more than fancy Novas.

[solman98]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

From 1982 on that is basically true....to a point. However there were "Pontiac Enhancements" on every one. From interior design athstetics to better handelling and many limited models. (remember the 89 GTA with the Grand National motor) Nose and tail designs were completely different, not to mention that from 82 on Firebird had pop up headlights till the end of the road. In the 1970's the only thing they REALLY shared was the chasis and trunklid. Rear fenders on the Firebird were rounded and sleak looking while the camaro has a visible hard line. The Door skins were slightly diffrent and the front fenders are NOT interchangable as the camaro's are rounded up to the hood while the Firebird's flare up higher then hug down to the hood. Hoods have never been shared. Interiors other than the actual seat frame/cushions, door handles, rear kickers and carpets are completely different. Not to mention the plethora of different power combinations offerred in the Firebird thru the years from it's first introduction.

If sharing a chasis makes them the same car, then both the Camaro and the Firebird are nothing more than fancy Novas.

OK, so they were slightly more than just a regrill.....But not by much....

[TransAmJim]

Originally Posted by solman98

OK, so they were slightly more than just a regrill.....But not by much....

I spent most of my 20's working on Trans Ams and Camaros and I can tell you for sure that my 79 Trans Am is completely different than my buddy Jeff's 79 Z28 inside and out. Trans Am's suspension is much improved....a quick comparason of the sway bars is an obvious difference. The TA's is almost twice as big. The front suspension is way beefier too. Interiors, I won't even compare them. His car came with the top 350 engine and 3.42 gears stock and mine came with the towing Olds 403 (solid main webbing) and 3.73 gears stock. In stock form the TA always eat that Z28 alive.

I wouldn't call it slightly at all.....unless in your definition you think Megan Fox is slightly thinner than Fat Albert.

[zete]

Originally Posted by TransAmJim

I completely disagree with you. I don't know much about Pontiac's history in Canada, but if you use your chain of thought.....the demise of Pontiac started in the early 1960's. I don't know what you would call a full line of cars, but I'd say Pontiac has had a full line since then. Of course that changed when GM killed Pontiac engines and went to corporate engines. But honestly, GM then killed Pontiac design......the sexy lines were gone and they looked like rebadged chevys, but the pontiac was always better looking than the chevy....ALWAYS. I've stated before, when I bought my Ram Air TA in March 2001, I had been searching since December 2000 and couldn't find any that weren't already sold, or had been orderred by someone. I found a few automatic Trans Ams but no Ram Airs. EVERY dealer I visited or contacted said the same thing. "As soon as we get them they're gone!" I ended up getting mine when it ended up at Burns Pontiac in Marlton NJ after it was in the Philadelphia New Car Auto show floor.

During my search, I did go to Chevy dealers as well to see if anybody could find me a lead and you know what I did find. ABOUT A TRILLION OF THOSE GOD UGLY Z28 LEXUS LOOKING CAMAROS! They couldn't give them away!

Who killed Pontiac? Management who were paid way more than they're worth and didn't have a clue what Pontiac was, is and always should have been.

Feel free to quote me. I've earned the right to bitch...GM has gotten plenty of my money over the years....more than they deserve with the loyalty they've shown me personally.

Everyone has a right to bitch. And everyone has a right to their opinion.

However, Pontiac slowly faded into irrelevancy for me in the 80s. I've owned 4 Pontiacs in the past 30 years. And I'll be honest, one 3 of them really mattered. And at the time I felt that those three were at least reasonable Pontiacs and reasonably differentiated from Chevrolet.

Now, who's to blame for Pontiac's demise? I'd say the lunacy of the 60s and 70s that led to GM badge engineering a lot of their cars. You can look at a slew of 70s era cars that are nothing more than the same vehicle, slightly warmed over. This type of idea must have originated in the late 60s since it arrived in the early 70s.

Making a Pontiac for nearly every Chevrolet car was stupid. There was no purpose to Pontiac. And everyone who knows anything about marketing knows you have to ensure each brand has a specific purpose, hopefully one you can describe in a few words. Hell, some car brands can be defined by single words:

• BMW = Performance
• Toyota = Quality
• Mercedes = Luxury

You can argue about that, but that's just the way people perceive those brands -- even today, even with Toyota's most recent recall issues.

Now look at GM in the past 2 decades. What did Pontiac stand for? Or Chevrolet? Or Buick? Or Cadillac?

Looking up cars from the past 20 - 30 years we see a bunch of really bad knockoffs. And that's irrespective of the quality of those vehicles.

Then, as we entered the 2000s we see a major problem for Pontiac. The one car that most people associated with the performance image Pontiac attempted to maintain was the Trans Am/Firebird. But that was gone soon enough. The Grand Prix, which in the mid-to-late 90s wasn't a bad car, quickly degenerated into an ugly piece of plastic and metal. Lutz attempted some level of rebirth, but it was too late.

In the 90s GM should have taken Pontiac and simply made it an all RWD/AWD division focusing on reasonably priced performance vehicles. By the time GM tried to do that, it was too late. No one though of Pontiac in terms of performance. And the "fans" out there bemoaned the GTO that came over or were unwilling to pay the price for the G8 when it first arrived; which only began selling in numbers when GM seriously discounted it.

So we can agree to disagree, but Pontiac was lost as soon as it went FWD and as soon as it became no more than a literal rebadge of a Chevrolet. It had to beg for scraps from corporate and that led to cars like the G6 looking awesome as concepts and huge disappointments as production vehicles.

And, obviously, since GM had decided to kill off Pontiac in the summer of '08 that means that GM knew that Pontiac could not be saved. That to save it required product and way too much runway, both of which GM didn't have. All it had for Pontiac was the Solstice and the G8. But it needed a smaller car to entice younger buyers, and an Alpha-based small RWD car was just too far away. The G5 and Vibe, to say nothing of the G3, just didn't project the right image. And did little to encourage younger drivers to give Pontiac a go.

When GM had to take loans from the feds we all knew that the brands that were not profitable were going to go. I knew at that point that if GM couldn't convince the ATF to leave Pontiac as a niche with the Solstice and G8, and maybe the Vibe for some volume, it wasn't going to make it. Without those first two cars there just wasn't anything to make a business case on for a performance division. And without the backing of the Feds here and in the US, it just wasn't going to happen. Thus, Pontiac died.

And I say all that having bought a new G8 GT on the day GM went bust. I've always loved Pontiacs and long wished for a proper Pontiac for Pontiac. The irony of it arriving on Pontiac's deathbed is not lost on me.