What GM should do with Pontiac.....

[rmodys]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I believe that "rebel" spirit is the only thing that can save Pontiac. But it needs to be "rebel" in today's, not 1967's, mindset. That can only be accomplished through "out the box" approaches in styling and engineering.

If any of you think shoehorning a huge engine into a boring sedan will save Pontiac, I've got some plastic cladding I'd like to sell you...

I agree with you here but this is what happens when GM tries "out of the box" styling:

[2b2]

^^ +1 T-rex!

tho I have a couple problems with possible nuances to "rebel"
and offer "jet set", avant-garde, "swinger", & Cool
cuz
it wasn't rebellion without a cause
the Cause was insouciant* Style
tho
I don't know how that lighthearted-unconcern* can translate to today
with 20-somethings being fed a dogma of discipline/conformity and greed/fear
& the middleclass buying 18th/19th century furniture and persecuting anything that's borderline-weird (imho)
but
the big objection being that these single word Identities are a Trap - a meaningful brand-image should require at least a paragraph (+ lots of hand gestures, facial expressions... body english)

another issue suggests a possible solution
I've said that back in the sixties, Pontiac was the kind of car that was driven by fighter pilots (if they got to be astronauts, they switched to Oldsmobiles: less flash, more tech)

so maybe GM could organize a focus group comprised solely of fighter pilots?!!!!
tho I'm not at all sure that the military still favors them having The Right Stuff - might get in the way of the paperwork


(apologies for the philosophy - since that's also frowned upon by the powers that be)

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by drees1

Solstice is already dead. They don't sell. Where is our Bonn? A RWD G8 that dealers can't even get. GM needs to get it together. Dump the GrandPrix why not re design it. The G6 is an old shoe. COME ON GM GIVE US SOMETHING TO SELL.. New Impala,Where the heck is our Camaro? How about a new GM VAN build a good looking van and we will sell a ton of them with TV,Blue tooth, storage, fold flat seats. This is what your dealers are saying...

Nothing for nothing, but dealers are destroying whatever advancements GM is trying to do.

GM makes several good products like the GTO, Solstice, Malibu, and now G8, you guys mark them up thousands and act all surprised why they dont sell?

GM makes a world class Park Ave for China, and dealers decline in favor of a DOA Lucerne with engines down on power compared to a decade ago. Same people who begged for a Cobalt rebadge, the same people who are putting up such a fit for the PBG dealers. Dealers are and should be the last thing that GM should listen to.
Where is Camaro? 4 months and 2 days away.
A van? Are you serious? Another Pontiac van to fit the performance image? dont forget to make a quiet tuned one for Buick. And then a cheaper one for Chevy. And a "European" one for Saturn which can also be used as an Opel and a Truck one for GMC, and then put a 7 slotted grill on one for Hummer. Then move the ignition lock cylinder to the center console and give it to Saab.

GM has given you stuff to sell, and you have squanderd it.

[Bravada]

I think with where the market is going, Pontiac should keep the good momentum given by the G8 and style-wise stay on the less-is-more route where perfect form takes over from plastic cladding, swooshes and Pokemon faces, BUT give us all (on a global scale) a slew of small, fuel-efficient but fun-to-drive cars. Do remember the Fiero only came with an I4 (in the beginning).

For single people, or ones that own more than one vehicle, an affordable, practical sports car is the hole in one.

[CadiEldo67]

I think I've realized what I want to do with my life. I want to work for General Motors. But more specifically, I want to turn Pontiac into the brand that it should be. It should be rebellious, stylish, fun to drive, a bit immature for those Buick buyers. And for the brand that should have it all, so much is wrong.


Firstly, there should be a consistent design language throughout the brand. Buick has its portholes and waterfall grille, Saturn has similar headlights, Chevy is pushing its new face throughout the lineup. And yet, Pontiac has the Solstice and G8, both beautiful, but both on completely different ends of the spectrum. When it comes time for a redesign, the Solstice should be less cute, and more aggressive. Pontiac should use a similar headlight/taillight design for each vehicle. The rims for each Pontiac should be available through a Pontiac parts bin. Even the exhaust tips should match. Is there shame in having a 4 cylinder with the same exhaust tip as a honkin' V8, I don't believe so.

Secondly, this is not to be a fleet brand. Thats what Chevy, Chrysler and Dodge are for, sorry Chevy, Chrysler and Dodge fans, just kidding. And in not being a fleet brand, things that should not be allowed on a Pontiac include:
Standard Rims
Antennas that aren't integrated into the windows
Crappy single exhaust, mainly referring to the exhaust tip, not the single exhaust.
Snow chains
Gaudy G6 GXP spoilers
Body Cladding
Tacky graphics (like the ones on the Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid)

Third, the interiors need to be absolutely excellent. Fit and finish is a big seller in todays market, and a little bit of extra money spent goes a long way. Therefore, plastics can be used in moderation, but the cheapest plastics don't belong in any Pontiac.

Fourth, the fit and finish of the exterior also need to be excellent. Gaps should be kept to a minimum and this includes the tire to body gap. Rims should be of high quality, and shouldn't suffer from problems such as peeling, rusting or any of that.

Fifth, great fuel efficiency is a must. The use of turbos should be second nature to GM, as Saab has many years of experience. Only 1-2 V8 engines should be offered. And Pontiac should offer both a 5/6 speed manual and a 6 speed auto across the lineup.

Last, Pontiac isn't just performance, its value, its style, its in your face, its fun, its not your father's Pontiac, lol.

And the lineup:
Ditch the Vibe, Torrent, G6, G5.

• The new Grand Am-based on either Delta II, or Alpha (SWB) just as a sedan.
• The Solstice, built on Alpha (SWB) Basically the Grand Am in coupe/convertible
• The new Grand Prix-based on Alpha (LWB)
• The Firebird/Trans Am Alpha (LWB) basically a Grand Prix coupe and convertible
• The Bonneville-based on Zeta
• The GTO-on Zeta as coupe/convertible to Bonneville.

This is essentially 3 models with 6 names to ensure Pontiac a long lasting future.


And I just read this excellent quote about the names of Pontiac "The classics are never really killed completely, but just go on hiatus until the right car worthy of that name comes along. Then, they may very likely ride again."

[Bravada]

I'd rather see it that way:

1. Grand Prix - sedan, wagon, pickup (current G8)
2. GTO - coupe and convertible (G8 coupe and cabrio basically)
3. GT - little roadster a la Solstice/Miata (replaces Opel GT and Saturn Sky too) - ragtop, folding hardtop, full coupe (a la Crossfire)
4. Torana - Alpha sedan and coupe (Torana is the name that has the most chances of catching on in Europe)
5. LeMans - really capable of competing in LeMans, i.e. something like the Audi R8, but cheaper - mid-engined supercar at Corvette prices

[mikmak]

I'm not against the solstice looking alittle cartoonish, but not as a pontiac. In fact I have trouble understanding why the Solstice looks wimpier than the Sky. The Sky's lines seem more overtly sporty and therefore more in line with the (apparently imginary) Pontiac theme.

Leveraging GMs global powers, Pontiac should be able to provide the lineup as Bravada defined above, but I would drop the G8 Coupe and give the torana a distinctly different language to the G8 and Solstice. Making them all share just a few hints to their allegiance to each other. This would allow more freedom though still remain within the bounds of a rebellious spirit. If you want to be a rebel the last thing you want is to appear in uniform. Individual appeal is the key.

Chevy is aligning itself with...itself, which is great for the mainstream audience. Purchasers of mainstream cars do so beause they want to belong.

Having a bunch of different cars in the same lineup creates a sub brand (which is what Pontiac tried to be) not that far from the GM Premium group established in Oz: Hummer, Cadillac (third quarter 08), Saab, Camaro (possibly) and Corvette (apparently).

Whilst the BPG Group is supposed to attain this, it clearly doesn't. Pontiac needs to distance itself further from B and G by flaunting its glaringly different design languages, removing obvious links to its non rebellious bretheren. **** the Vibe right off. Push the Equinox off a ****ing cliff. Give the G5 a kick in the ****ing ghoulies, and turn the rebel brand into ****ing rebels!!! And put a bullet to the G names!!

No more pissing about.
More aggressive 2.2di T Solstice
Alpha 2.8di T V6 Firebird
Zeta 3.6di and 6.0 Brimstone (See Pontiac RIA for bodywork)
Mid Engine 4.5 TurboDIESEL V8 FireBrand (with amountain of torque) for a halo vehicle.

All of them available with manual transmission.

Pontiac and Cadillac should be the Niche brands that run on skinny margins to add cred to the GM empire. They should be attainable and aspirational respectively.
They are the dark to Saturn and Buicks light.

Pontiac needs to HARDEN UP!

[Bravada]

If you want to be a rebel the last thing you want is to appear in uniform.

I don't think Pontiac needs or has to "rebel" anymore. Today, Pontiac needs to get their crap together and show their ENTIRE lineup is worth a look, that Pontiac itself is a value proposition, not a badge randomly slapped on both desirable cars and a bunch of leftovers. Therefore, I believe a uniform look (a la BMW or Alfa Romeo, not necessairly completely unified) is key.

As concerns the Torana, I believe it should be made as the TT36 was - by essentially building a smaller VE. So, I believe it should look like one, to ride on the good momentum.

Pontiac and Cadillac should be the Niche brands that run on skinny margins to add cred to the GM empire.

People aren't buying "GM". Few of them know what GM actually consists of, and that's good for the individual brand identities. I actually wish GM stopped advertising itself as GM as it does in the US, becoming somewhat of a Procter & Gamble (btw, when did you last see a P&G ad?)

Anyway, no skinny margins please. Both brands need sound business cases and actually both have the potential to bring in more $$$ to GM's coffers. Chevrolet needs to run on skinny margins to compete with Hyundai, Kia and the Chinese. Pontiac and Cadillac, with the right strategy, shouldn't need to.

[63GrandSport001]

It seems that one thing we all can agree on is that GM needs Pontiac to be a Niche brand focused on performance. Pontiac needs to ditch the idea of being a high volume brand and everyone here needs to get over the idea of Pontiac being a high volume brand.

The reason I said align Holden and Pontiac is to help keep costs down and also to better the breed for both brands. It can also move holden to a niche brand in Australia so that GM can move Chevy in there to become the top selling brand. I say get rid of the FWD cars at Pontiac (they are a small niche brand so they wont have much of an effect on GMs CAFE) and give them all RWD cars.

[Col Klink]

Originally Posted by HoosierRon

Simply ask this: what was Pontiac selling when it was selling more vehicles than it sells today? You can't argue with sales.

OMG I thought I had seen some ugly cars? in my life, but what the H@ll is that meant to be, the designer must have yelled out "it lives" when thye first one rolled out & then laught manically, the designer should be shot out of a canon - tro Korea - if he/she has not already!!!

Do you mean people actually paid money for that!!!

[Maki]

Pontiac and Holden are teaming up and that is not a bad thing. It will enable them to acquire more money from GM to develop new unique models,and the two brands won't overlap with each other because they don't sell in the same market. Of course the design language for both brands should be different,because tastes in the US and Oz are not the same. We want them to be platform partners and not simple rebadges of the same car. And one more thing that GM should consider is to built the Pontiac versions in the US,so they can take advantage of the weak dollar. That would also stop the whining of some people that complain that the G8 is an Australian car.
And one more thing Pontiac should not become a niche brand....it would lose it's purpose for existence and probably be replaced by Chevy in a few years.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by Col Klink

OMG I thought I had seen some ugly cars? in my life, but what the H@ll is that meant to be, the designer must have yelled out "it lives" when thye first one rolled out & then laught manically, the designer should be shot out of a canon - tro Korea - if he/she has not already!!!

Do you mean people actually paid money for that!!!

If you had have gotten to GMi a year earlier Col Klink, you would have been introduced to our little friend, The Pontiac Aztek. "Unfortunately" there was a period in 2006 when it was our eternal trump card in teh never ending battle of Australias well sculpted muscle (known in NA as boring conservatism) vs. Bold American Styling (AKA in OZ as freakin hideous). "Fortunately", our little friend/boxing partner PontiacCustomS took a business trip to Oz post VE release and vanished from the forums shortly after his return with nary a whimper. Personally I think he plum forgot he was German and changed his vernacular to plot his revenge
quietly in the shadows.

Either way, the Aztec has remained in the backlogs of everyones photobucket account, next to the picture of "The Homer", just waiting for an opportunity like this.

[mikmak]

Originally Posted by Bravada

I don't think Pontiac needs or has to "rebel" anymore. Today, Pontiac needs to get their crap together and show their ENTIRE lineup is worth a look, that Pontiac itself is a value proposition, not a badge randomly slapped on both desirable cars and a bunch of leftovers. Therefore, I believe a uniform look (a la BMW or Alfa Romeo, not necessairly completely unified) is key.

I'll agree to disagree. I believe that everyone is already taking this strategy but I don't hink that the 1 series and the 6 series are cut from the same jib. As I thought (though might not have said) a few key characteristics need be present but overall the link between models should not extend to compressed shrunken/streched versions of each other (I'm looking at you MB/Lexus/Audi. If you look at their volume sellers, they are quite tame. Look at their performance models and they are far more differing and adventurous.

Originally Posted by Bravada

As concerns the Torana, I believe it should be made as the TT36 was - by essentially building a smaller VE. So, I believe it should look like one, to ride on the good momentum.

Good point, and let me just add that if I post anything between the hours of [+ 10 to 12 hours from now), I am at work and typing madly during the 30 mins I allow myself to ingest as much noodles as possible (in other words: at work having lunch) and my responses may be slightly less well formed than my other..."well formed" resolutions

Originally Posted by Bravada

People aren't buying "GM". Few of them know what GM actually consists of, and that's good for the individual brand identities. I actually wish GM stopped advertising itself as GM as it does in the US, becoming somewhat of a Procter & Gamble (btw, when did you last see a P&G ad?)

who?

Originally Posted by Bravada

Anyway, no skinny margins please. Both brands need sound business cases and actually both have the potential to bring in more $$$ to GM's coffers. Chevrolet needs to run on skinny margins to compete with Hyundai, Kia and the Chinese. Pontiac and Cadillac, with the right strategy, shouldn't need to.

Indeed, though I still think there is room for skinny margins, though perhaps it should be a bell curve ie skinny on the Solstice end getting fatter as it passes alpha and zeta then hitting rock bottom again, ensuring less compromise on that which is most likely to hit the track.

[Astra RL]

G8 to be come Grand Prix
SE 3.2 DI 275 HP more power and milage.
GT 5.3 DI 375 HP same as above
GXP 6.2 DI 475 HP no need for gas guzzler tax now
Wheelbase lengthened maybe an inch to allow more breathing room for the Grand Am. The coupe is the GTO only with V8 engines
Starting Price $28,000

G6 to be the Grand Am
SE 1.8T 200 HP
GT 2.8T 280 HP
GXP 3.6T 350 HP
Moves to Alpha wheelbase shrinks to 110.5 inches but is wider. Coupe version to be called Fire Bird with the 4.9 DI V8 at the top.
Starts at $21,000

G5 to become Sunfire
SE 1.4T 150 HP
GT 1.8T 230 HP
GXP 2.0T 300 HP
Also on Alpha but the SWB and narrow body style 105 wheelbase. sedan coupe and hatch.
Starts at $17,000

Solstice
GT 1.8T 230 HP
GXP 2.0T 300 HP
Upgrade the interior
Starts at $20,000

Safari
SE 2.0T 220 HP
GT 2.8T 280 HP
GXP 3.6T 350 HP
Grand Am wagon Based AWD Suv raise ground clearance 1 inch and the roof another 2 inches shorten the front and rear by a few inches.
Starts at $26,000

[Firebird00]

Solstice, Firebird, G8 coupe, G8 sedan, G5 offered with turbo only. Change naming back to racing or heat related themes (already have Solstice & Firebird for a heat theme). Change standard front fascia design to more early 70s look, but with modern application. Have familiar styling cues (the good ones that is) but pull it off in a modern way.

Kill off the G8 ST (quickly!) and maybe the G6 (Malibu and Aura eat up its bracket). Maybe make a hardcore version of the G6 with turbos and blazing looks if it can stay around. I'd also offer some technical goodies to lure the folk that have to have such items (but keep it optional so those of us that don't need it don't have to pay for it).

Don't shy away from V8 power or turbos for that matter. Focus on suspension heavily aswell. They need to look at performance from all angles. Don't worry about overlap with other brands. Make Pontiac cars superior to other cars even within GM again. Don't forget that image and design sell like sex and drugs (people always want it). Do not give into Chevys demands either as to what Pontiac can be allowed to have.