Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

  1. #1
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    185
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    **IMPORTANT**************************************
    Before proceeding to read my post please review this article in it's entirety to answer any unanswered questions you may already have as well as a better description of some of the engines intricacies [such as the water's superheating system for quick starts].

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/070102.html
    **************************************IMPORTANT**


    Once upon a time steam engines revolutionized the transportation industry but were replaced because of their inability to produce efficient power. Again they are called upon to revitalize the failing petrol-dependent infrastructure the world has created for itself.

    [In] 1996, a R&D subsidiary of the Volkswagen group called Enginion AG was developing a system called ZEE (Zero Emissions Engine). It produced steam almost instantly without an open flame, and took 30 seconds to reach maximum power from a cold start. Their third prototype, EZEE03, was a three-cylinder unit meant to fit in a Skoda Fabia automobile. The EZEE03 was described as having a "two-stroke" (i.e. single-acting) engine of 1000 cc (164 cubic inch) displacement, producing up to 220 hp (500 N·m or 369 ft·lbf).[7] Exhaust emissions were said to be far below the SULEV standard. It had an "oilless" engine with ceramic cylinder linings using steam instead of oil as a lubricant. However, Enginion found that the market was not ready for steam cars, so they opted instead to develop the "Steamcell" power generator/heating system based on similar technology
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car


    In 2003 (or 2001.. not sure), they took a patent out on the engine's design.
    [View patents here:
    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6508060/fulltext.html for breif overview
    and here for more details:
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6508060.html]

    The design is derived from steam engines of the past, yet they do not work in the same way except in the way that they are both external combustion engines.

    Ingenieurgesellschaft Auto und Verkeh (IAV), Germany, has developed a small but
    powerful engine that runs efficiently on any kind of fuel. It does not require any
    lubricating oils and cuts emissions to nearly undetectable limits without using any
    catalyst. The Zero Emission Engine’s (ZEE) powertrain combines a thermal
    reactor with an advanced closed loop steam injection system. Chemical reactions
    take place inside the hollow pores of a flameless burner that heats ordinary water
    to supercritical temperatures. Steam thus generated is injected into a two-stroke
    chamber inside a second reactor, which is similar to a combustion chamber in a
    conventional engine.
    The conversion of thermal energy takes place in the steam generator, rings of
    austenitic steel ending in 12 individual tubes, which coil around the cylinder.
    Steam, re-heated to about 900°C, moves a piston that drives a crankshaft. Though
    other fluids were also tested, pure water proved to be the best choice for ZEE.
    According to IAV engineers, ZEE03, the latest model is potentially as efficient as
    diesel engines.
    http://www.apctt.org/publication/pdf/was_dec_zero.pdf


    Here are some diagrams and pictures from my investigation:











    The official TEA website can be viewed here. Although it doesn't say anything about present and future accomplishments [except for scheduled meetings for further engine development] you can shoot them an email to ask about its development.
    http://www.iav.com/en/3_about_iav/subsidiaries/tea.php


    and yes you read correctly, 220hp with 3 cylinders. I can only imagine what 8 would do...

    The only problems I've read about that need to be overcome are some cold start issues, apparently frozen water can't be combusted [/sarcasm] but since this engine can run on multiple types of fuel I don't see that as being much of a problem, in one of the websites I referenced they talk about some kind of antifreeze/water mixture that might be able to overcome this issue. For anyone who didn't know, antifreeze is essentially an alcoholic compounds with an extremely high boiling point made to keep internal combustion engines cool [and keep coolants from freezing].


    In short, this is what I see as being the only viable future for energy and energy development. If you paid attention, you would have noted that IAV already developed similar technology for large scale generators and put them to use in some European countries. With a little more redirection of R&D funds I believe this could completely reverse our current position and help us win our battle with fossil fuel.


    References:
    http://fbi-www.tfh-berlin.de/file/sp...._Preis_07.pdf
    http://www.berlinews.de/archiv/2447.shtml
    http://www.google.com/search?ndsp=20...-8&sa=N&tab=iw


    ************************************************
    Note: If you followed my link to autofieldguide you will notice that there is a similar engine with a completely different description but could possibly be used for similar purposes:


    This 10-kW auxiliary power unit is a Wankel rotary engine that is 20 in. long and weighs 77 lb. Smaller versions are being developed for use in luxury cars and heavy-duty trucks, while this unit may see use in miniature residential or commercial power grids.
    Did somebody say steam powered rotary? Super cool.
    ************************************************

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Michael_S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    8,971
    Thanks
    480
    Thanked 111 Times in 67 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Steam engines have a huge number of practical problems:
    1. There's no mass production for them right now. Regular car engines enjoy enormous economies of scale, while effectively brand new factories would need to be built for steam cars.
    2. No modern mechanics would know how to fix them.
    3. No modern inspection standards exist for them.
    4. No modern technicians would know how to inspect them, the inspection standards would need to be created and then the technicians would need to be trained.
    5. People assume that steam cars died a century ago because they were inefficient. In fact, they died because they were inconvenient. When the internal combustion engine (ICE) started taking over, ICEs started up in seconds while steam cars took 15 minutes to warm up. It's possible (but not proven) that modern steam cars could be as efficient as modern ICE cars.

    I'm a fan of steam cars, I hope the technology takes off. But the Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines have been writing articles about new steam cars every few years for decades, and nothing has ever happened.

  4. #3
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    18,488
    Thanks
    260
    Thanked 275 Times in 215 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    There were a lot of investigations into steam in the 70's... all of them were really bad...

  5. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  6. #4
    Walking
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    what mad things you say how long do it takes for monkeys to learn new tricks, about half the time it took you to write your moan 25 years ago mr lear give you these engines whats wrong with give the customer the choice of ZERO EMISSIONS CARS

  7. #5
    GMI Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    11,887
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2,424 Times in 1,474 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    One major error. Steam is NOT a source of energy.

    What source of energy are you going to use to create the steam? Wood? Coal? Oil?

    Steam solves no energy problems....



    Last edited by MonaroSS; 05-16-2009 at 03:06 PM.

  8. #6
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    29,465
    Thanks
    4,703
    Thanked 3,282 Times in 2,326 Posts
    My Ride
    17 GMC Terrain; 01 PT LTD

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_S View Post
    Steam engines have a huge number of practical problems:
    1. There's no mass production for them right now. Regular car engines enjoy enormous economies of scale, while effectively brand new factories would need to be built for steam cars.
    2. No modern mechanics would know how to fix them.
    3. No modern inspection standards exist for them.
    4. No modern technicians would know how to inspect them, the inspection standards would need to be created and then the technicians would need to be trained.
    5. People assume that steam cars died a century ago because they were inefficient. In fact, they died because they were inconvenient. When the internal combustion engine (ICE) started taking over, ICEs started up in seconds while steam cars took 15 minutes to warm up. It's possible (but not proven) that modern steam cars could be as efficient as modern ICE cars.

    I'm a fan of steam cars, I hope the technology takes off. But the Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines have been writing articles about new steam cars every few years for decades, and nothing has ever happened.
    My Flying Car is steam powered. Coal.
    2017 GMC Terrain

    I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did. Yogi Berra
    Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. Yogi Berra

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  9. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    197
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr View Post
    There were a lot of investigations into steam in the 70's... all of them were really bad...
    Yes, there were alot of investigations into steam in the 70's. Like the 1770's.

    May I proffer coal power as the suitable alternative to steam? Also, I see a bright future for the horse-driven carriage...

  10. #8
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    18,488
    Thanks
    260
    Thanked 275 Times in 215 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenns View Post
    Yes, there were alot of investigations into steam in the 70's. Like the 1770's.

    May I proffer coal power as the suitable alternative to steam? Also, I see a bright future for the horse-driven carriage...
    No I meant 1970's and even the middle Sixties

    in particular GM had a couple... they made one in-house with a ~1969 Grand Prix (and even lengthened the nose even more than before) and had Besler develop a more compact motor installed in a Chevelle

    Chrysler also had a Plymouth Fury steam prototype running around probably circa 1973?

    I have the SAE report paper on it somewhere here... fuel consumption was double the 318 V8 and less power.

    It was being looked into since with a constant combustion you can reduce the pollution level to a huge amount... without any fancy things. Also after 1973-4 oil crisis...

  11. #9
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    29,465
    Thanks
    4,703
    Thanked 3,282 Times in 2,326 Posts
    My Ride
    17 GMC Terrain; 01 PT LTD

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr View Post
    No I meant 1970's and even the middle Sixties

    in particular GM had a couple... they made one in-house with a ~1969 Grand Prix (and even lengthened the nose even more than before) and had Besler develop a more compact motor installed in a Chevelle

    Chrysler also had a Plymouth Fury steam prototype running around probably circa 1973?

    I have the SAE report paper on it somewhere here... fuel consumption was double the 318 V8 and less power.

    It was being looked into since with a constant combustion you can reduce the pollution level to a huge amount... without any fancy things. Also after 1973-4 oil crisis...
    Actually with modern processing, coal can be a very clean source of energy.

    My father and I were discussing the merits of steam power in the 70s and 80s. He had actually ridden in and driven a Stanley Steamer. He said it was enormously powerful.

    A coal-powered steam hybrid, with an IC for a starter/warmup motor, is certainly within the realm of possibility.

    When you're searching for efficiency, it hleps (sic) if you look at ALL possibilities. Not just solar panels.

    We have a great deal of coal native to the the USA. We have the brains to make this work.
    If folks would stop laughing long enough to look at it seriously, it certainly is a possible option.
    2017 GMC Terrain

    I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did. Yogi Berra
    Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. Yogi Berra

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  12. #10
    4.4 Liter Supercharged Northstar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    2,979
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    One major error. Steam is NOT a source of energy.
    Not yet. That's why we need more research into steam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Actually with modern processing, coal can be a very clean source of energy.
    Gasoline is already cleaner. It's only the concern over CO2 that is making us look at alternative fuel sources. And coal emits LOTS of CO2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    A coal-powered steam hybrid, with an IC for a starter/warmup motor, is certainly within the realm of possibility.
    As a novelty, we can power a vehicles in many ways, but nothing beats the ICE so far.

  13. #11
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) F14CRAZY's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    11,865
    Thanks
    259
    Thanked 804 Times in 453 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    pretty sweet technology there...I didn't know it existed.

    I like the idea of being able to use renewable fuels
    '07 Subaru Forester 2.5X 5MT. Bought new. 197k miles. '05 Dodge Durango Limited Hemi AWD. Mom bought new. 102k miles. '74 Buick LeSabre Luxus convertible. 455-4/7.5L. '89 Buick Reatta. 3800 SII L67/F40 six speed swap to be completed someday. Wife's: '07 Subaru Forester XT. World Rally Blue Mica.

    '87 BMW K75c. '87 Kawasaki 650SX. '85 Bayliner Capri 1952. '71 Chris Craft Coho 33'. '70? Amphicat 6x6 AATV.

  14. #12
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) johnstarnes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    13,039
    Thanks
    4,266
    Thanked 632 Times in 362 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Thanks for this....interesting. For me the key would be the source of the thermal energy needed to create the steam....fossil vs. biodiesel, biobutanol, bio-methane, hydrogen. I personally would prefer that fossil carbon remain sequestered where it has been since the Carboniferous Era.....WAY deep underground. I think it is cool that people are being so creative and innovative about energy sources and applications once again.
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know well". unknown


    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

    Hidden Content

  15. #13
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    217
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    0-3mph in about 2minutes!
    http://www.pbase.com/gary_602z/image/112436812

    Gary
    Proper spelling is a lossed art.

  16. #14
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    A sunny cave in Transylvania
    Posts
    29,465
    Thanks
    4,703
    Thanked 3,282 Times in 2,326 Posts
    My Ride
    17 GMC Terrain; 01 PT LTD

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormwatcher View Post

    Gasoline is already cleaner. It's only the concern over CO2 that is making us look at alternative fuel sources. And coal emits LOTS of CO2.
    CO2 as pollutant is a joke. It is also a lie.

    Repeat a lie often enough and people will start believing it. The Big Lie, as practiced by the Nazis and Stalin's communists.
    It still works, it works in America today.
    2017 GMC Terrain

    I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did. Yogi Berra
    Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. Yogi Berra

    Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content Hidden Content

  17. #15
    Banned plane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Banned
    Posts
    6,921
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 233 Times in 116 Posts

    Re: Steam power and why its the only viable alternative energy source.

    Well, I just finished eating some CO2 and I'm not feeling well at all.
    My understanding though is that CO2 is much less hazardous than dihydrogen monoxide, which kills thousands of people every year. This website carries all the technical details.

    http://www.dhmo.org/

  18. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2