Road & Track NEXT CAMARO!!!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by johndoe

DON'T BAG ON THE TSURU! I've had mine since '91! LOL, I didn't even know they had Nissan Sentra's in Mexico still in production. It has the same spec numbers and everything. All they really improved on were refinements to some interior parts and some exterior freshenings. I guess since its cheap to make.. and reliable. I don't know when mine plans on dying.

Knowing that Mexican factories were still producing VW Bugs as recently as 2003... there are good chances that they'll still be making Tsurus in the same form until well past 2050!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by actionjack

The GT was never a match for the LT1 or LS1 F-Bodies and for most every year that GM sold the F-Bodies with LT1s and Ls1s the Cobras could not beat them stock vs stock. GM did their cars better than Ford and if the Mustang was not such a chicks car then Fords' sales would have suffered. But, if a knowledgeable consumer were to be given a choice from any year from 93' to 02' the obvious choice for Performance and Handling would go to the F-Body EVERY year. The GT could not compete and the Cobra was the only competition for the F-Body those years. All you had to do was open your eyes. heck do some searches you will see for yourself.





Jack



P.S.

I am still loving this 2001 Trans Am WS6 and still to this day the only competition from Ford with Mustangs is the 03' and 04' Cobras and then they better be modded and have a driver that can control the IRS or I will smoke them also.

If you look at the whole history, I think it's widely accepted that the performance crown was traded several times between the Mustang and F-bodies since the 1960s (for example, a '82 Z28 would get its doors blown off by a '82 5.0 GT). True, in the later years, the F-bodies were dominating in performance, yes... but meanwhile, the Mustang was dominating where it truly mattered. The result? One is dead, the other is not.

[actionjack]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you look at the whole history, I think it's widely accepted that the performance crown was traded several times between the Mustang and F-bodies since the 1960s (for example, a '82 Z28 would get its doors blown off by a '82 5.0 GT). True, in the later years, the F-bodies were dominating in performance, yes... but meanwhile, the Mustang was dominating where it truly mattered. The result? One is dead, the other is not.

I know the 5.0 GT Mustang was bad ass. Heck I got my last speeding ticket in one in 1990.

If you want to call a Mustang win because GM is being run by pencil neck paper pushing fags and they decided to cancel the F-Body without a replacement then be my guest since I am still pissed off about that.

But, at least you concede the domination in performance with the 4th Gen F-Body and that was my point and what 'silverado 13' was stating (I think).

I will tell what, if Ford brings back another 5.0 then they will have a chance to be on top still if a Camaro returns. Heck, the 03 and 04 Cobras with SC were fast out of the box and do a chip, Kenney Belle, and pulley and say hello to 500 HP.

GM really needs to grow some balls again and get in the Pony wars. I like the Solstice and they have some pretty cool trucks but no RWD V8s and the Vette is too expensive and hardly anyone wants the GTO.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by actionjack

But, at least you concede the domination in performance with the 4th Gen F-Body and that was my point and what 'silverado 13' was stating (I think).

silverado_13 was stating why he believes a future Camaro will be a hit in spite of the presence of the Mustang. I was disagreeing and stating why it may be more difficult to beat the Mustang than it appears. I don't dispute the general edge in performance the F-Bodies had over the Mustang in their final years but, like lio45 said, that's something that has shifted back and forth over the decades. In fact, you can say that the Mustang is leading when it comes to performance right now, by default though. Although all this talk has been mostly about engines and performance, determining which was the "better car" obviously goes deeper than just how fast each was. After all, building the faster car didn't always translate into having the better sales. I'm not saying that the F-Bodies were killed in this way, that's a complicated situation, but you can't say that having more horsepower than the Mustang was key to the F-Bodies' salvation either.

[91z4me]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Thats all incorrect.

If you think so then just prove it. I can back up all of my statements with posts by industry insiders.

[Kong Got Nuthin on Me!]

It won't look that cool, unforunately.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by 91z4me

A Sigma with struts and cheaper rear end components was thought of and worked on for a while in skunk works fasion till VE/Zeta was bubbled up. The work on the cheapened Sigma was put on hold for about 2 years as the project was working with using Zeta (a revized V-car body with Sigma suspension peices). About a year ago the plans for Zeta/VE in North America were scuttled and the Camaro project went back to work on the cheapened Sigma (Sigma Lite).

I have explained the whole Sigma/Zeta story in the not so distant past in another thread.

Australia's Wheels & Motor magazine's have been following the development of the Zeta chassis from day one, with Holden more than willing to provide information on it and other related topics, like Sigma and the US Zeta plan.

Some of Motor's & Wheel's longtime contributors are good mates with Holden bosses, such as Tony Hyde, Denny Mooney & ex-chief, Peter Hanenberger.
Bob Lutz has even visited Motor's office for a long lunch & chat, which isn't something many motoring magazines can boast.

I would post all their articles, but, alas, neither have websites like Motortrend.
I could read & re-write the articles, but I'd be typing forever. I'm not the worlds fastest typer.

They have new information on this subject in just about every issue. These articles are where I get my information from.

Here's my post on the subject again:

Let's talk about what a platform is.

The overall platform is the frame, suspension system, engine, and drive train of a vehicle; the assembled parts of an automobile without the body.

Now, lets forget about the engine & drivetrain for a minute.

When GM, or any auto maker build a platform, they are broken up into groups. The Sigma, Zeta, and now Zeta-lite, belong to the same family. (The SigZetaLite family).

All of the above platforms share the same frame and undercarriage.
What makes each of them different from one another is their respective suspension setups, and only the suspension.

Sigma - Full double A arm front and compact aluminum multi link rear suspension.

Zeta - Single A arm front and compact multi link rear suspension using forged steel instead of aluminum.

Zeta-lite - Probably single A arm front and maybe solid axle, strut rear end.
(Zeta-lite is Bob Lutz's current name for the platform but this will change no doubt)

The reason why this has been done is so each version of the SigZetaLite family fits into its own price range.

Sigma - the top end products, like the Cadillac's.

Zeta - the middle range products, like Commodore, GTO and the now on hold US sedans.

Zeta-lite - the low range products, like a future Camaro, or Firebird, or even a Torana TT36 type sedan.

Personally, I find it strange that GM would want to change the current Sigma platform so soon after release. Its only a few years old after all.

If there was to be a Sigma2, the only thing that would change would be the suspension setup. The rest of the chassis would stay the same.

Even so, the costs of Sigma's current components is still too expensive to try and sell under a Commodore, GTO or Camaro without pricing the final product way above its price range.

This from Wheels magazine June 2005.

Quote - "We are still working with (GM NA) on rear wheel drive architecture," says Mooney. "There's a study that's going on."

The research is into the possibility of an even less expensive version of the Holden developed architecture, known unofficially as Zeta-lite since GM global product development chief Bob Lutz coined the term in April. End quote.

Thats that done.

The Zeta platform has absolutely no relationship to the old, and current Commodore V-car/Omega chassis. Nothing whats so ever.
Zeta is completely new, as is her sister platform, Sigma.

The cheaper version of Sigma IS Zeta.
And the even cheaper version of Sigma, and there for Zeta, is the so called Zeta-lite platform, as Bob Lutz's has stated himself.
And if its comes out of his mouth, you can take it as fact.

When Holden was looking for a replacement for the current Omega platform, the US developed Sigma was the chassis for the job.

The only problem was the Sigma's components & suspension were way too expensive for Holden to try and sell under your run-of-the-mill Commodore, so they had to try and reduce the costs.
Sigma was designed for use under Cadillac's products, so a premium pricetag was not an issue.

Holden replaced the expensive full double A arm front and compact aluminum multi link rear suspension with a cheaper single A arm front and compact multi link rear suspension using forged steel instead of aluminum setup.

With Holden quickly becoming GM Corp's shining star, and Bob Lutz's love for all things Holden (& Aussie), GM NA started taking a keen interest in the then un-named Sigma-lite platform as a suitable base for Commodore type vehicle's for the US market, built in the US.

When GM Corp gave the green light to the US RWD large sedan project, and gave the Holden Sigma-lite platform its Zeta name, Holden Ltd was given the job of overseeing the global development of all Zeta based vehicle's.

As GM Corp's overall financial position was looking increasingly worse, GM made the hard, and no doubt hotly debated decision to place the US Zeta program on the backburner, in favour of spending the little capital it had on improving its well established products in the Truck & SUV market.

This is a great shame as Holden confirmed soon after the projects demise that nearly all of the US Zeta project products were fully designed and ready to be ticked off.

The editorial in May 2005's Wheels magazine claims Bob Lutz was personally upset and disappointed that the US Zeta project had been pushed to the side, with Rick Wagoner more interested in improving GM NA current products than introducing a whole new range of RWD vehicles.

It's pleasing to know that just because the US Zeta program us put on ice that GM hasn't completely given up on future RWD product for the US market.

GM & Holden have confirmed they are still developing RWD products for the US and global markets, with a new lighter variant of the Sigma/Zeta family on the cards. Bob Lutz's is later quoted as calling this variant 'Zeta-lite'.

Holden has confirmed it is still developing the next generation Monaro, even though this was to be part of the US Zeta program, with the coupe to be built in the US for global sales.

Will the future Monaro be built in Australia as is the case now, or does GM still desire to get the US Zeta program back underway in the near future?
Who knows. GM is playing its cards close to its chest on that one.

I was just thinking. It would have saved alot of debating & confusion if GM Corp just gave the Sigma & Zeta family chassis the same name, rather than two totally unrelated names.

Instead of Sigma, how about Sigma One. Instead of Zeta, Sigma Two and instead of Zeta-lite, Sigma Three. Or something like that.

I know about 98% of car drivers couldn't give a rats about a chassis name but for us GM car fanatics, it would make understanding their products & variants much easier to comprehend.

[91z4me]

JoeT,

I don't mean to contradict you but hey your wrong. Mark Ruess head of GMPD recently said in an interview that Sigma with struts and a cheapened IRS is being looked at for the basis of a new low cost chassis for GMNA. It has a lot going for it such as the Sigma unibody already being passed GMNA approval, something that would have taken to much time with Zeta to do. Remember GMNA has a higher volume of cars than Holden and therefore it is much more stringent on testing within the company, also much slower bringing anything to market.

All of your VE info may be totally up to date and perfect but that doesn't mean that Zeta is coming to the US. If there is a leading cantidate for the next Camaro or RWD sedans outside of Caddy for the US it is Sigma lite.

[JoeT]

You talk as if Zeta is some physical object that is in Australia but is too hard to move to the US.

Zeta is a name, as is Sigma, of a design on computer & paper.

There is no physical reason the Zeta platform cannot be used in the US.

Let me state again. Sigma and Zeta are the same platform. All that is different is their suspension setups.

Zeta is already approved by GM Corp for use. It does not need to be approved for use in each individual nation.
All they have done is changed some suspension components. Not put the steering on the wrong side of the car.

If the cheaper version of Sigma is ready for use here, its ready for use anywhere.

The cheaper version of Sigma you talk about IS the current designed Zeta chassis.

Call it Sigma-lite, Zeta, or even Lutz. They are all one of the same.

Its public knowledge that GM & Holden are developing another variant, as Lutz's called it, Zeta-lite.

This variant is the cheaper version of Sigma and Zeta, as all three have the same frame & undercarrage.

Holden changed Sigma into the cheaper Zeta.
Now they want to cheapen it even more. How? we do not know for sure yet. GM has not said.

Your getting too caught up in names.

[91z4me]

Originally Posted by JoeT

You talk as if Zeta is some physical object that is in Australia but is too hard to move to the US.

Zeta is a name, as is Sigma, of a design on computer & paper.

There is no physical reason the Zeta platform cannot be used in the US.

Let me state again. Sigma and Zeta are the same platform. All that is different is their suspension setups.

Zeta is already approved by GM Corp for use. It does not need to be approved for use in each individual nation.
All they have done is changed some suspension components. Not put the steering on the wrong side of the car.

If the cheaper version of Sigma is ready for use here, its ready for use anywhere.

The cheaper version of Sigma you talk about IS the current designed Zeta chassis.

Call it Sigma-lite, Zeta, or even Lutz. They are all one of the same.

Its public knowledge that GM & Holden are developing another variant, as Lutz's called it, Zeta-lite.

This variant is the cheaper version of Sigma and Zeta, as all three have the same frame & undercarrage.

Holden changed Sigma into the cheaper Zeta.
Now they want to cheapen it even more. How? we do not know for sure yet. GM has not said.

Your getting too caught up in names.

Sorry bud but you are wrong on a few points.

Lets clarify something

Zeta/VE is an upgrade of the currnet V-car chasiss, unibody. With Sigma suspsension points hung onto it.

Sigma is a clean sheet unibody with all new front and rear suspension components, totally unrelated to VE/Vcar/GM-2800, or any other GM car.

Sigma lite would be a front strut Sigma with lower cost component IRS.

GM Corp has approved VE/Zeta for production world wide. That doesn't mean that it fits into GM US's production plans. It may have been that buy basing the new RWD platform on Sigma it could be built along side Sigma in the same plants where as Zeta/VE would have required different tooling for its production.

I have heard talk of Zeta lite but only as rumor. I have cannot say for sure that it won't be produced in the US or AUS. I could conclude that it would be the revised V car Unibody with the struts and cheaper rear end from Sigma lite, but that is just speculation. I am VERY sure about Sigma lite.

[1979Berlinetta]

Please let it be true. Say yes to Camaro!!! I am almost embarassed to be a Chevy guy lately!?%$@# Can you sat Malibu Maxx!

[actionjack]

Originally Posted by 1979Berlinetta

Please let it be true. Say yes to Camaro!!! I am almost embarassed to be a Chevy guy lately!?%$@# Can you sat Malibu Maxx!

I hear ya!

And tell us the chasis as well...

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by 91z4me

JoeT, I don't mean to contradict you but hey your wrong.

Originally Posted by 91z4me

Sorry bud but you are wrong on a few points.

Mate. Its not me who's incorrect, its Wheels, Motor, Cheers&Gears, GM Corp, Holden Ltd & more specifically, Ged Bulmer, John Carey, Michael Taylor, Peter Hanenberger, Tony Hyde, Denny Mooney & Bob Lutz for providing the public with these bogus facts.

I'm just relaying their record statements, press releases & articles on this issue.

One has to ask one's self 'How could they all blatantly lie to us all like that for so long & sleep at night?' Who knows....

[91z4me]

JoeT C&G, specifically Josh, is very public about Sigma lite as was AH-Ha about a year ago. Chazman is very public about what Zeta/Ve is. Nothing wrong with us having conflicting info but the problem is that we are using the same sources so our info shoud be the same.

[454]

i hope DCX builds that car so that people deciding between a camaro and a challenger will pick the camaro..........