Road & Track NEXT CAMARO!!!

[camaro chris]

Originally Posted by mk1700

I want a Camaro but please, dont do what GM do with the GTO: Just a redbadged Holden. They look so strange here in America!
I want a real RWD, kick *****, american Pony car.

yeah i agree with you on that. if they use a holden they better do a lot to it to make it look like a true camaro.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Note how the rims of that GTO show car turned up on the mid 1990's Chevy Beretta Z26.

[silverado_13]

I still say that the Camaro will kick the Mustang's Ass. You say that my post is flawed but lets have a look at your arguments.

First lets look at the V6 in the base models. My point about the 3.9 is not unreasonable. Chevy used the 3.8 before in the F-bodies, so why not use the 3.9 now. It's the logical choice. As for the hp numbers we know it makes 240 now in the current cars it's in. It makes sense that in a performance application it would have more hp. People buying Camaros aren't so concerned with fuel economy as people buying Impalas. As for the mustang I can't say for sure what they'll do in 07/08 but assuming the 3.5 does make it's way into the mustang I got serious doubts that it will make over 250hp. Keep in mind that this it is based off the current 3.0 so it stands to reason that they will share similar hp/litre numbers. The Ford Fusion's 3.0, which will appear in 06 will have 220hp. If you do the math that's 73hp/litre. Going under the assumption that they will have similar hp/litre numbers, that gives the 3.5 about 255hp. I've heard too many Ford guys talking about how the 3.5 will have 270, or 280 or maybe even 300hp. It's all wishful thinking. It's not going to happen. And the Duratec probably won't get in the Mustang because of it's bad torque numbers. Also it will probably be a much more expensive engine to build so if they do put it in the Mustang it will raise the price.

Now about the 4.6. Do you really believe that Ford is stupid enough to hold back they're own engines just because one car company(Chevy) doesn't have a direct competitor? If so then you got less faith in Ford than I do. There are a lot more cars on the Market than compete with the Mustang than the Camaro you know. Making the Mustang week on purpose would put them at a disadvantage. I'm Sorry but the 4.6 is at it's limit unless Ford comes up with another trick. As for this BS about a bigger bore, do you remember when the 4.6 came out in the Mustang. It replaced the old 5.0 litre. (Good radiance to a ****************y engine). Its been around now for a long time in the Mustang, getting it’s ass kicked by LS1s. In all this time Ford didn’t increase the Displacement. Probably because if they increase it anymore it will overheat. If they could they’d have done it already. The competition was strong enough during the late 90s and they did nothing them so I doubt they’ll do anything now.

Moving on to the 6.0L, yes Chevy will probably keep they’re rule about not passing the Corvette but you yourself made the argument about the Companies will not sit around doing nothing. We all already know that the LS2 is capable of at least 430hp as seen in the SS concept. By the time 2007 comes around I’m sure the LS2 will be upgraded and it will definitely find its way into the Camaro. It will also most likely make the same hp as the Corvette because the GTO matches the Vette now. There’s no reason why they will not make the same hp. Unfortunately Ford doesn’t have a Mustang at this level. There’s a gap between the GT and the Shelby and don’t say the Shelby will compete with a LS2 Camaro Cause there is going to be a big price difference between the two. A Camaro with an LS2 will most likely start at about 33, 000 like the current GTO. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Shelby was 50+, In which case a cheaper Corvette will destroy it.

As for my thoughts about a 396, that’s all it is, my thoughts. This is not a rumour or even likely to happen its just an idea I thought would be good for the Camaro. The biggest thing that would stop a 450hp Camaro from coming to the Market is that it would compete with the Corvette too much. See, the difference between Ford and Chevy is that Chevy builds they’re 40,000 cars to be 40,000 cars while Ford takes a 20,000 car, supercharges it and then sells it for 40,000. Even if this Mustang does edge ahead of the base Corvette in the 1/4 mile it won’t match the Corvette’s handling, refinement, and quality. And for the record it probably won’t beat the Vette in the quarter mile.

So lets see, who kicks who’s ass. In 07 the Camaro will arrive with more power and fresh styling to compete against the Mustang, which by then will have grown on everyone and it won’t turn heads anymore. For under 40 grand the Camaros will offer a better package and for above 40,000 people can buy a Corvette which will smoke the Shelby. So in the end Chevy wins and Ford loses. The Camaro will out perform the Mustang like it always has.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by silverado_13

As for the mustang I can't say for sure what they'll do in 07/08 but assuming the 3.5 does make it's way into the mustang I got serious doubts that it will make over 250hp. Keep in mind that this it is based off the current 3.0 so it stands to reason that they will share similar hp/litre numbers. The Ford Fusion's 3.0, which will appear in 06 will have 220hp. If you do the math that's 73hp/litre. Going under the assumption that they will have similar hp/litre numbers, that gives the 3.5 about 255hp. I've heard too many Ford guys talking about how the 3.5 will have 270, or 280 or maybe even 300hp. It's all wishful thinking. It's not going to happen. And the Duratec probably won't get in the Mustang because of it's bad torque numbers.

I said nearly all of your points were flawed. I don't dispute your views on GM's 3.9L V6 but I staunchly dispute your views on the Duratec 35. "Keep in mind that this it is based off the current 3.0 so it stands to reason that they will share similar hp/litre numbers?" Where the Hell did you get this information? What, you assume that the Duratec 35 is based on the Duratec 30 because they both use the Duratec name? The Duratec 35 shares nothing in common with the Duratec 30! It's a brand new engine! Why else would it have taken Ford this long to build it if it was merely a larger displacement Duratec 30? The 3.0L DOHC V6 is already maxed out when it comes to displacement, Ford had to design a new engine architecture to replace the old 3.8L/3.9L/4.2L "Essex" OHV V6s. That's what the 3.5L DOHC V6 is for. In fact, the engine architecture, codenamed "Cyclone" is scalable to allow displacements in excess of 3.8 liters. So, bottom line, you say that it's "wishful thinking" that the Ford guys anticipate such high horsepower numbers? Yeah if they were using your baseless and inaccurate info. Try doing some research next time before ripping into an engine instead of pulling numbers out of your ass.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Now about the 4.6. Do you really believe that Ford is stupid enough to hold back they're own engines just because one car company(Chevy) doesn't have a direct competitor? If so then you got less faith in Ford than I do. There are a lot more cars on the Market than compete with the Mustang than the Camaro you know. Making the Mustang week on purpose would put them at a disadvantage.

The Mustang does have other competition, just not any as good. The 4.6L V8 did see a 40HP gain in this Mustang versus the last generation, I'm just saying that others have said that Ford could have done more. There was no need to go further though because no one matches the Mustang's value at 300HP let alone a higher figure.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

I'm Sorry but the 4.6 is at it's limit unless Ford comes up with another trick. As for this BS about a bigger bore, do you remember when the 4.6 came out in the Mustang. It replaced the old 5.0 litre. (Good radiance to a ****************y engine). Its been around now for a long time in the Mustang, getting it’s ass kicked by LS1s. In all this time Ford didn’t increase the Displacement. Probably because if they increase it anymore it will overheat. If they could they’d have done it already. The competition was strong enough during the late 90s and they did nothing them so I doubt they’ll do anything now.

What is this? More "Ford can't do it because I say so" nonsense? And a bigger bore is BS, eh? http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Ford-Mustang-GT-R-Concept.htm


"The engine is rooted in the MOD 4.6-liter four-valve V-8 engine family. However, the motor's flanged cylinder liners help provide 94mm (instead of 90.2mm) cylinder bores, creating a full 5.0 liters of piston displacement."

Shaving off 4mm per cylinder liner isn't much yet the engine in the GT-R concept produces 440HP. A standard Mustang GT doesn't need that much power to be competitive but it just goes to show that a larger displacement is possible in the modular engines. But yes, Ford hasn't done anything, displacement-wise, to the engine all this time, in spite of "getting its ass kicked" by the LS1. This was particularly true when the 4.6 first found its way into the Mustang for '96. Ford did react though because, contrary to your belief, many Mustang enthusiasts were unimpressed with the engine relative to the old 5.0. Ford still wanted a common V8 design though which led to the compromise that was the PI heads that appeared for '98. Though they closed the gap some, the LS series was hard to beat, but, Ford didn't need to do anything else because the F-body was in decline by this time. In fact, to think about this for a second, don't dismiss the idea of a larger displacement V8 when Ford had SVT throw a supercharger on the 4.6L DOHC V8 after the F-body disappeared. Who was Ford fighting then?

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Moving on to the 6.0L, yes Chevy will probably keep they’re rule about not passing the Corvette but you yourself made the argument about the Companies will not sit around doing nothing. We all already know that the LS2 is capable of at least 430hp as seen in the SS concept. By the time 2007 comes around I’m sure the LS2 will be upgraded and it will definitely find its way into the Camaro. It will also most likely make the same hp as the Corvette because the GTO matches the Vette now. There’s no reason why they will not make the same hp. Unfortunately Ford doesn’t have a Mustang at this level. There’s a gap between the GT and the Shelby and don’t say the

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Shelby will compete with a LS2 Camaro Cause there is going to be a big price difference between the two. A Camaro with an LS2 will most likely start at about 33, 000 like the current GTO. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Shelby was 50+, In which case a cheaper Corvette will destroy it.

I don't dispute the fact that a future Camaro could match the Corvette's horsepower, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be enough. Even at 430HP, the GT500 still has a 20HP advantage at the minimum. As for the gap between the Mustang GT and GT500, you have to know that it will inevitably be filled with another model because Ford's done it before with Mustangs like the Mach 1. In fact, the next "specialty" Mustang is said to be the California Special: http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/products/lane.mustangcs.15june05.htm


As for the GT500 being over $50,000, unlikely since the target is less than $40,000.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

The biggest thing that would stop a 450hp Camaro from coming to the Market is that it would compete with the Corvette too much.

Exactly what I said before.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

See, the difference between Ford and Chevy is that Chevy builds they’re 40,000 cars to be 40,000 cars while Ford takes a 20,000 car, supercharges it and then sells it for 40,000.

Baseless hearsay. The GT500 isn't just some fancied up Mustang GT. It uses a supercharged 5.4L DOHC V8, a 6-speed manual, a beefed up suspension, bigger wheels, and bigger brakes.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Even if this Mustang does edge ahead of the base Corvette in the 1/4 mile it won’t match the Corvette’s handling, refinement, and quality. And for the record it probably won’t beat the Vette in the quarter mile.

Again, exactly what I said before, though I think the quarter is up for grabs.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

So lets see, who kicks who’s ass. In 07 the Camaro will arrive with more power and fresh styling to compete against the Mustang, which by then will have grown on everyone and it won’t turn heads anymore. For under 40 grand the Camaros will offer a better package and for above 40,000 people can buy a Corvette which will smoke the

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Shelby. So in the end Chevy wins and Ford loses. The Camaro will out perform the Mustang like it always has.

So, you end just the way you began, with more "GM can do no wrong" and acting as if Ford is incompetant. If GM's so perfect, and it's so easy for the Camaro to outdo the Mustang as you make it out to be, maybe you can explain why the Mustang is the car that's selling like crazy and GM doesn't have anything to counter it with. You can go on ahead and continue living in your fantasy world but in the real world, the Mustang is the only game in town.


As I said before, Camaro: second place even when it wins the race.

[91z4me]

Originally Posted by desmo9

Then why won't GM have a Mustang "challenger" until 2008, at best? No matter how you slice it, somebody is asleep at the wheel. And as for Lutz, I firmly recall, when he entered his post at GM four years ago, the Camaro project was shelved. It wasn't "good to go or back to work", it was "work no more." The guy had absolutely no use for authentic American product in 2002. Short of doing HHR, which was just a spin off of something that worked for Chrysler in 2001, GM's got a big void in what would now be a strong market attractor.

Ask yourself ... with 4-year model cycles, and with Lutz getting started in 2002, why must we wait until 2009 to see the "good stuff?" I'll tell you why ... because he had to wait until Ford and Chrysler's 2005 launches before having any confidence in what the market wants (aside from Toyota clones). This isn't the work of some $2 million a year car czar, it's the work of an auto enthusiast with some business experience. Those are a dime a dozen.

First of all you will see the car at Detroit in January of 2006 and probably be able to buy it as a 2007 model in Nov or Dec. Lutz didn't shelve the Camaro project. A case was made to put the new Camaro on Sigma back around 2002-2003 which would have put it out as a 2005 model. Caddy killed that idea because they didn't want to share. A Sigma with struts and cheaper rear end components was thought of and worked on for a while in skunk works fasion till VE/Zeta was bubbled up. The work on the cheapened Sigma was put on hold for about 2 years as the project was working with using Zeta (a revized V-car body with Sigma suspension peices). About a year ago the plans for Zeta/VE in North America were scuttled and the Camaro project went back to work on the cheapened Sigma (Sigma Lite).

You can read this in the ACAR styled book that RedPlanet will put out in a few years consider this the preview.

[silverado_13]

Ok. I'll admit I've assumed and made educated guesses about a lot of thing here. But that’s all anyone can do until something official is announced. And for the record you've assumed a lot about the new Mustang too, so lets look at some facts.

First of all we don't really know what engine either of them will use for the Base Model. Fact: Chevy, in the past has shared its V6s with FWD and RWD cars as seen in the Camaro and Various FWD cars with the 3.8 and 3.4. Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that the 3.9 will be used in the new Camaro. Fact: Ford has never shared it's FWD and RWD V6s. So there is no reason to assume that Ford will use the 3.5 in the Mustang. Also there's a price issue. The current price of the base Mustang is about 20,000. If they were to replace the current V6 with the 3.5 it would almost certainly raise the price. I know this is an assumption but it is a reasonable one. the current duratec adds $1000 to the taurus as an option. You your self said that the 3.5 will be much more advanced than the 3.0. It is a fact that it will be used in top model 500s, Zephers and Millin for no doubt a hefty price. If it is used in the base mustang the price could jump to around the price of a GT. Lets also look at your assumption about the hp. Lets assume for a minuet that it will reach 280hp and won't raise the price. Who is going to pay 5 grand more for 20hp more in the GT..

Now lets look at the next model. You say Ford is holding back because the competition isn't any good. Wow. First of all that’s a big assumption. Where did you come across that bit of info. Did Ford tell you that or did it come to you in a dream. Ford isn't in a position to hold back on products. They've already been surpassed by Toyota. Car companies don't keep horsepower in they're back pocket waiting for the right moment to throw it out for the sake of bragging rights. Ford needs sales. A more powerful mustang would help make sales. You must have a lot of faith in Ford. Despite the fact that American car companies have been losing ground to Asian companies for the past 20 years Ford is still somehow good enough that they can hold back on they're cars. Wow.

Now how about this 5.0 crap. This is yet another big assumption on your part. That Ford can take this 4.6 that has been around sense 96 and make it into a 5.0 anytime they want. If you compare the GT mustang and the Z28 Camaro you will find that throughout the 90s the GT was never a match for the Z. the last year that had a Camaro saw 310hp compared to 260. If it is so easy for Ford to make a 5.0 out of the 4.6 why I ask you didn't they do it when they needed it most. I'm not going to make any assumptions as to why they never did this though all the updates and refreshes they gave the Mustang. All I will say is that there must be a good reason why they couldn't do this during the 90s, why they didn't do this in the resdisign and why they most likely won't do this when the Camaro comes out.

And as for this pack of crap about the GT-R. A concept car with a 15,000 dollar engine is a far cry from a production car. Any car company can make a super engine out of a production engine using the best parts available. The 5.0 in the GT-R is a race engine, meant to be rebuilt after every race. This thing would never hold up for 60,000 miles. Look at the C5-R. it had a 427ci LS1. Did you ever see and production 427 LS1s. When the time came that they wanted a 427 they made one based of the general LS design but it was still a whole new engine. You say that 4mm isn't a lot. You must be a English major or maybe in medicine cause your sure not an engineer. 4mm is a lot when boring out an engine. look at the 3100 series V6 from Chevy. The 3100 has a bore of 89mm if you take that engine and bore it out to 92mm you get a 3.4. If you bore it past that to get 3.5L the engine will overheat. 4mm past 89 will destroy a 3.1. It might be possible if they redesign the whole engine like Chevy did when they introduced the 3.5. But that’s a big job and we're not talking about whole new engines we're talking about boring out existing engines. Just because they made a concept car with a bored out 4.6 does not mean that they can make a viable production version of this engine.

Your point about the supercharger makes no sense. You tell me not to dismiss a bored out 4.6 cause they supercharged the existing one. But doesn't that show that they had to supercharge it to gain more power cause there was no other way to increase it? I mean, why not bore it out to a 5.0. It could make more power, keep reliability and economy and lower the price. Maybe cause they can't. You also ask who was Ford Fighting when the supercharged the Mustang in 03. I honestly don't know. According to you the Mustang completely dominates every other car out there and it only competes with the Camaro. So who where they trying to beat when they came out with a S/C mustang? You would think that they would hold back they're power (like you say they do) until something came out that could threaten them. Unless they don't hold back on power! Maybe they do put all they're effort into designing a car and get the most power out of an engine. Now I'm confused.

Moving on to the big engine. I'll agree that the most likely top engine for the Camaro is the LS2. But keep in mind the LS2 will most likely have some upgrades by 2007. When the C5 Corvette appeared in 97 it had 345hp. Only a couple of years later it was upgraded to 350. It stands to reason that Chevy will follow a similar pattern with the LS2. Especially when they know that there will be a 460+hp Mustang in 07. Chevy won’t let the C6 be beaten. The LS2 first appeared in the SS concept and it wasn't a big overdone version like the GT-R mustang’s engine. It made 430hp. It is reasonable to assume that it will produce at least that much in 07. Lets not dismiss a LS2 camaro as a competitor for the Shelby either. The Shelby will weigh in a an estimated 3850lbs. That’s a heavy car. Even if the Corvette keeps its 400hp the Shelby will need 500hp to match it's hp/weight ratio, so don't count on it racing any C6s in the 1/4 mile. If the Vette gets 430hp the Mustang will need 530hp to match it. And also the Mustang's final gear ratio is 3.31:1 compared to the Vette's 3.42:1. As for the Camaro to have the Same power to weight ratio as the Shelby(assuming 430hp it will have to weigh 3600lbs. Considering that the old Camaro weighed about 3400lbs that’s not a hard mark to hit. The LS2 isn't a heavy engine where as a S/C 5.4 is. it adds 170lbs to a GT Mustang as estimated by C&D. And besides, the LS2 comaro doesn’t have to race a GT500 because of the price difference. The SS Camaro would only have to beat what ever Ford come up with the fill in the Gap between the GT and the GT00. And if it can come close to the GT500 it should have no problem with sometime lower. I assume this because the SS will have at least 400hp. And For right now got nothing to put in another Mustang.

Your point about the price actually made me laugh. I know a lot of magazines have estimated a 39,000 base price but they're always wrong. Do you really believe that putting the engine out of the GT plus all this other stuff you yourself mentioned like bigger brakes, better suspension and a 6-speed isn't going to raise the price of this from the old SVT? I personally don't. The only way they can achieve this price is through cutting corners in which case there's not a lot to worry about is there.

Lets assume for a sec that is it 39,000. It still won't compete with a C6 for the hp/weight reasons mentioned above and because of the refinement that lets the C6 compete with the likes of porsche. The GTO right now with the LS2 costs 33,000. even if the Camaro's price goes above that it still won't be near the Shelby's price.

So we arrive at the end of another long post. GM can do wrong, I never said they couldn't. Look at the Malibu or the rebadged Dawoo's in Canada. And I never said Ford was incompetent. Don't put words in my mouth. I pointed out what was possible and what was not possible. I stated valid reasons and well educated guesses about why I think the new Camaro will outperform the Mustang. Except for maybe the Shelby in which case people can get a Corvette. Chevy doesn't need a 40,000 Camaro. Ford does need a 40,000 Mustang cause they fail to make a car to compete with the Corvette and nobody is stupid enough to believe that a fanced up Mustang is going to seriously compete on that level. I firmly believe after looking at all the facts that the V6 Camaro will outperform the V6 mustang, the Z28 will out perform the GT and the SS will offer close to the GT500's performance for a lot less money and outperform and Mach 1 that will come along. As for sales I don't know which will sell more. I believe the Camaro will be the performance choice but the Mustang has always had a large market with the ladies. It somehow appeals to Girls more than the Camaro does. Only time will tell.

The only way the Camaro has finished second is in sales. The Camaro has always out performed the Mustang From the 427 Yenko, 396s and 302 Z28s of the late 60s, to the 350s in the 70's Camaros, to the IROC Camaro’s in the 80s all the way up to 2002 with the 325hp SS.

[AdmiralViscen]

Doesn't the GT500 also have independent rear suspension?

[actionjack]

'silverado 13' I enjoyed reading your post. I would have to agree with all you stated and I found a couple parts insightful from what I already knew.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by silverado_13

If you compare the GT mustang and the Z28 Camaro you will find that throughout the 90s the GT was never a match for the Z. the last year that had a Camaro saw 310hp compared to 260. If it is so easy for Ford to make a 5.0 out of the 4.6 why I ask you didn't they do it when they needed it most. I'm not going to make any assumptions as to why they never did this though all the updates and refreshes they gave the Mustang. All I will say is that there must be a good reason why they couldn't do this during the 90s, why they didn't do this in the resdisign and why they most likely won't do this when the Camaro comes out.

This paragraph is truly funny. Seriously, are you really saying that looking back into the 1990s, GM did the right thing and Ford did NOT?

I think taking a look at whose pony car is dead right now and whose pony car is thriving right now will provide an answer to the "who got their car right and who did not" question.

Sure, Ford could have turned the Mustang into a true enthusiast machine that almost no one would have bought. And that would have been REALLY SMART of them, yes.

Enjoy your used Camaro.

[actionjack]

Originally Posted by lio45

This paragraph is truly funny. Seriously, are you really saying that looking back into the 1990s, GM did the right thing and Ford did NOT?

I think taking a look at whose pony car is dead right now and whose pony car is thriving right now will provide an answer to the "who got their car right and who did not" question.

Sure, Ford could have turned the Mustang into a true enthusiast machine that almost no one would have bought. And that would have been REALLY SMART of them, yes.

Enjoy your used Camaro.

The GT was never a match for the LT1 or LS1 F-Bodies and for most every year that GM sold the F-Bodies with LT1s and Ls1s the Cobras could not beat them stock vs stock. GM did their cars better than Ford and if the Mustang was not such a chicks car then Fords' sales would have suffered. But, if a knowledgeable consumer were to be given a choice from any year from 93' to 02' the obvious choice for Performance and Handling would go to the F-Body EVERY year. The GT could not compete and the Cobra was the only competition for the F-Body those years. All you had to do was open your eyes. heck do some searches you will see for yourself.





Jack



P.S.

I am still loving this 2001 Trans Am WS6 and still to this day the only competition from Ford with Mustangs is the 03' and 04' Cobras and then they better be modded and have a driver that can control the IRS or I will smoke them also.

[johndoe]

Originally Posted by lio45

Because the GTO is so BLAND, it makes a Mexican Nissan Tsuru look exciting. (http://www.nissantsuru.com.mx/gallery.asp)

DON'T BAG ON THE TSURU! I've had mine since '91! LOL, I didn't even know they had Nissan Sentra's in Mexico still in production. It has the same spec numbers and everything. All they really improved on were refinements to some interior parts and some exterior freshenings. I guess since its cheap to make.. and reliable. I don't know when mine plans on dying.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Fact: Ford has never shared it's FWD and RWD V6s. So there is no reason to assume that Ford will use the 3.5 in the Mustang. Also there's a price issue. The current price of the base Mustang is about 20,000. If they were to replace the current V6 with the 3.5 it would almost certainly raise the price. I know this is an assumption but it is a reasonable one. the current duratec adds $1000 to the taurus as an option. You your self said that the 3.5 will be much more advanced than the 3.0. It is a fact that it will be used in top model 500s, Zephers and Millin for no doubt a hefty price.

Ford has shared FWD and RWD V6s on several occasions. The 3.0L "Vulcan" OHV V6 from the FWD Taurus has been used in the RWD Ranger. The 3.8L OHV "Essex" V6 has also been used in the Taurus and FWD Windstar (3.9L in Freestar) and the RWD Mustang and Thunderbird. The 4.2L OHV "Essex" V6 has been used in the RWD F-150 and is now used in the FWD Freestar. Never say never. The only reason why I assume that the 3.5L DOHC V6 will find its way into the Mustang eventually is because Ford has more or less declared that all of its gas I4s and V6s will be DOHC designs and use the Duratec name by the end of the decade. This means that all OHV and SOHC engines, I4 or V6, will be phased out. Ford's already done it with the I4s, all that's left are a few V6s. The Taurus, the last major user of the Vulcan V6, will end production in less than a year leaving only the Ranger to use the engine. The Essex V6s only exist in the Freestar minivan and the F-150 now. The Freestar (and Monterrey) will be replaced with a totally new vehicle within the next few years while the F-150...well, if no one else is going to the use the engine, I'd expect the F-150 will get a replacement too. Finally, the 4.0L "Cologne" SOHC V6 in the new Mustang, Explorer, Mountaineer, and Ranger. This engine will probably hold out the longest because, per liter, it has the highest output of any of these engines on the chopping block. Still though, it is an aging design and, being a SOHC engine, it doesn't append to the Duratec doctrine; it's not a DOHC engine. Furthermore, like I said before, the "Cyclone" architecture the Duratec 35 uses is scalable to allow for larger displacements. There will be no need to keep the Cologne V6 around if there's a new Duratec engine that will do the same job better.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Now lets look at the next model. You say Ford is holding back because the competition isn't any good. Wow. First of all that’s a big assumption. Where did you come across that bit of info. Did Ford tell you that or did it come to you in a dream. Ford isn't in a position to hold back on products. They've already been surpassed by Toyota.

So what? The Mustang is supposed to take on all of Toyota? No matter how well it sells it's just one car. In the Mustang's specific segment, it leads already. This defeats the purpose of going even further than Ford did at this point but it doesn't mean that Ford shouldn't keep other options open for more power, in case the competition catches up. That's my point. And it reflects on just the Mustang. That's what's being discussed, the Camaro and why I think it faces an uphill battle if it is to return. Why did you bring up Toyota? It has nothing to do with this thread or my points.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Now how about this 5.0 crap. This is yet another big assumption on your part. That Ford can take this 4.6 that has been around sense 96 and make it into a 5.0 anytime they want.

I'm not assuming anything! I'm merely suggesting that increasing the bore on the existing 4.6L V8 is an option for Ford, one that they've decided they don't need to use thus far. The 4.6L V8 in the Mustang has only gained horsepower since '96 in the Mustang anyway so, obviously, Ford has demonstrated that there's still more that can be done with the engine in its current displacement.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

And as for this pack of crap about the GT-R. A concept car with a 15,000 dollar engine is a far cry from a production car. Any car company can make a super engine out of a production engine using the best parts available. The 5.0 in the GT-R is a race engine, meant to be rebuilt after every race. This thing would never hold up for 60,000 miles. Look at the C5-R. it had a 427ci LS1. Did you ever see and production 427 LS1s. When the time came that they wanted a 427 they made one based of the general LS design but it was still a whole new engine. You say that 4mm isn't a lot. You must be a English major or maybe in medicine cause your sure not an engineer.

Again, like my last comment, I'm merely illustrating that a 5.0L displacement is entirely possible with the existing 4.6L engine. I'm not saying that Ford's going to do this. Again, it's merely an option. Also, even though the GT-R was a concept car, the engine is real. You can buy it. But again, even though the engine is much more exotic than the regular 4.6L V8 in the Mustang GT, it still shows what's at Ford's disposal. I'm looking at just the displacement, it's not as if the Mustang GT needs the DOHC design or all that horsepower. And no, I'm not an engineer, but I think your "guess" that Ford's 3.0L and 3.5L DOHC V6s come from the same architecture simply because they share the Duratec name demonstrates that you're far from being an engineer yourself.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Your point about the supercharger makes no sense. You tell me not to dismiss a bored out 4.6 cause they supercharged the existing one. But doesn't that show that they had to supercharge it to gain more power cause there was no other way to increase it? I mean, why not bore it out to a 5.0. It could make more power, keep reliability and economy and lower the price. Maybe cause they can't. You also ask who was Ford Fighting when the supercharged the Mustang in 03. I honestly don't know. According to you the Mustang completely dominates every other car out there and it only competes with the Camaro. So who where they trying to beat when they came out with a S/C mustang? You would think that they would hold back they're power (like you say they do) until something came out that could threaten them. Unless they don't hold back on power! Maybe they do put all they're effort into designing a car and get the most power out of an engine.

Again, just another option at Ford's disposal. This just shows that Ford can continue to improve on the Mustang even when it has no direct competition. That's water under the bridge now though. The supercharged 4.6L DOHC V8 in the Mustang is no more, but, it does serve another purpose since it seems that Ford may use it elsewhere, such as with an SVT version of the next Sport Trac like the concept. About the "holding back on power" that's crossing generations. The way Ford built the Mustang changed a little after the demise of the F-bodies. If the F-bodies continued on through today, I think the Mustang would have had to have been different, at the engine at least. SVT was already secure because the 390HP the Cobra produced would still be enough. If the F-bodies didn't die then I bet the supercharged 4.6 would have been carried over immeadiately, versus putting the SVT Mustang on hiatus for the GT500. The regular Mustang GT, with the F-bodies already producing over 300HP, would have needed more horsepower itself. I bet with the 3-valve heads the Mustang can do more than 300HP if Ford wanted it to but, depending on what GM did with the F-bodies, it may have not been enough, maybe then persuading Ford to consider increasing displacement. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered at all and Ford would have been satisfied with Mustang sales in spite of the horsepower disadvantage. It's all hypothetical. Since the F-bodies did die however, there's been no need for Ford to work quite as hard because no one else has a RWD coupe quite like them. It just so happens that 300HP was the number Ford chose to stop at in the Mustang GT as it has proven to be enough to show a clear edge over the "other" competitors, mostly FWD coupes with no more than V6s.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Moving on to the big engine. I'll agree that the most likely top engine for the Camaro is the LS2. But keep in mind the LS2 will most likely have some upgrades by 2007. When the C5 Corvette appeared in 97 it had 345hp. Only a couple of years later it was upgraded to 350. It stands to reason that Chevy will follow a similar pattern with the LS2. Especially when they know that there will be a 460+hp Mustang in 07. Chevy won’t let the C6 be beaten. The LS2 first appeared in the SS concept and it wasn't a big overdone version like the GT-R mustang’s engine. It made 430hp. It is reasonable to assume that it will produce at least that much in 07. Lets not dismiss a LS2 camaro as a competitor for the Shelby either. The Shelby will weigh in a an estimated 3850lbs. That’s a heavy car. Even if the Corvette keeps its 400hp the Shelby will need 500hp to match it's hp/weight ratio, so don't count on it racing any C6s in the 1/4 mile. If the Vette gets 430hp the Mustang will need 530hp to match it. And also the Mustang's final gear ratio is 3.31:1 compared to the Vette's 3.42:1. As for the Camaro to have the Same power to weight ratio as the Shelby(assuming 430hp it will have to weigh 3600lbs. Considering that the old Camaro weighed about 3400lbs that’s not a hard mark to hit. The LS2 isn't a heavy engine where as a S/C 5.4 is. it adds 170lbs to a GT Mustang as estimated by C&D. And besides, the LS2 comaro doesn’t have to race a GT500 because of the price difference. The SS Camaro would only have to beat what ever Ford come up with the fill in the Gap between the GT and the GT500. And if it can come close to the GT500 it should have no problem with sometime lower. I assume this because the SS will have at least 400hp. And For right now got nothing to put in another Mustang.

Fair enough but, all things being equal, it can't be told what GM will do for sure while Ford is in a much better position to roll out the next Mustang (other than the GT500). Obviously, Ford will need to bridge the gap between the Mustang GT and GT500. That car, it seems, will be called the California Special but little is known about it. I assume though it will be more powerful than a Mustang GT but not as much as a GT500 which means that many engines could be under the hood. I think though the GT500's engine, minus the supercharger, is a viable choice.

Originally Posted by silverado_13

Your point about the price actually made me laugh. I know a lot of magazines have estimated a 39,000 base price but they're always wrong. Do you really believe that putting the engine out of the GT plus all this other stuff you yourself mentioned like bigger brakes, better suspension and a 6-speed isn't going to raise the price of this from the old SVT? I personally don't. The only way they can achieve this price is through cutting corners in which case there's not a lot to worry about is there.

At around $40k the GT500 would already be more than the last SVT Mustang. And again, I don't dispute that the Corvette will remain above the GT500 when it comes to overall refinement. That's why I say the Mustang cost less than the standard Corvette because it's not intended to beat it outright. The GT500 could be a Corvette alternative, but not a direct competitor, perhaps like the GTO versus Mustang GT.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by AdmiralViscen

Doesn't the GT500 also have independent rear suspension?

No, it's an SRA. Ford decided to keep it for the same reason they did in the Mustang GT. Cost effectiveness and handling that, they believe, is unsubstantially worse than an IRS.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by 91z4me

A Sigma with struts and cheaper rear end components was thought of and worked on for a while in skunk works fasion till VE/Zeta was bubbled up. The work on the cheapened Sigma was put on hold for about 2 years as the project was working with using Zeta (a revized V-car body with Sigma suspension peices). About a year ago the plans for Zeta/VE in North America were scuttled and the Camaro project went back to work on the cheapened Sigma (Sigma Lite).

Thats all incorrect.