Road & Track NEXT CAMARO!!!

[327]

heres what they should do, Send a 69 camaro to Chip Foose,have him do his styling magic . and have him work with Jesse James for the rest . BAMMM that would be a sweeeet camaro. then Chevy take that and make it New.

[TiburonJT]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

My choice for the '07 or '08 Chevrolet Chevelle, with very minor massaging. This car is pretty. Even some elements of retro, or heritage, that is very subtle. I like it.

The grille and headlights need some work, but otherwise I like it a lot.

[MN12Fan]

Originally Posted by silverado_13

As for the engines they got all the right parts now except one. The got the 3.9 OHV V6 for the base engine. A little tweaking could give it 250-260hp. This compared to Ford's 200hp should give GM a big advantage in the sales between the base models. Who except die hard Ford fans would buy a 200hp car over a 250hp car. Up from that the 5.3 OHV V8 with between 320-340hp should be enough to beat Fords 4.6. I do believe that the 5.3 is capable of this kind of power because it is based off the LS series and they have a lot of potential. Next of corse is the 6.0 OHV V8. This engine is capable of at least 430hp as shown in the SS concept. Finally the Camaro needs an engine to compete with the Shelby. They could follow Fords lead and S/C the existing LS2. An article about Chevy making a S/C LS2 for the Silverado SS said it was capable of up to 600hp. According to this they could easily find the right balance of kicking Ford's ass with power and reliability and useablity. I however believe that another LS engine is a better move. It would be more reliable, easier to build, cheaper to build, cheaper to design(bore and stroke a LS2) and Chevy couldn't be accused of copying Ford. A 396(6.6) with about 460-470hp would do the trick. They could easily market a 396 using the same method Dodge used to market the Hemi. They could even call it the rat motor.

"Chevy can do this. Chevy can do that. Ford doesn't have a chance in hell." Yeah, all in fantasy land. Nearly all of the points in your argument are flawed because they seem to assume that (1) the Corvette doesn't exist, and (2) that Ford will somehow do nothing to stay competitive the whole time. Regardless of what GM's 3.9L V6 can do, who says that Ford's 4.0L SOHC V6, which produces 210HP by the way, is just going to sit and collect dust? For one thing, it's a pretty large V6 too so it's not like it couldn't be tuned up a little also. Secondly, by the time any Camaro appears, Ford will have rolled out the Duratec 35 3.5L DOHC V6 which has said to be able to produce anywhere from 245-270HP+. I don't see why that engine wouldn't find its way into the Mustang, especially since Ford intends on having nothing but DOHC gas I4s and V6s by the end of the decade.

Then you have the V8s. Regardless of what the 5.3L V8 can be tuned to, again, what makes you think that Ford's just going to sit and do nothing with the 4.6L SOHC V8? It has already been rumored that Ford has intentionally held back on what they can tune the 24-valve V8 to simply because there's no need to give it all kinds of horsepower because there's no competition! Furthermore, based on what syr74 said in another thread about Ford engines, the displacement on Ford's modular engine (bore in particular) can be increased fairly easily and cheaply through simply using a slightly thinner cylinder liner. A 4.6L V8 (or 5.4L V8 or 6.8L V10 incidentally), which has about a 90mm bore currently, could grow to a 94mm bore. In this case, the 4.6L V8 would grow to 5.0 liters. It's something Ford could do but, thus far, hasn't done because competition isn't strong enough to sanction it and, perhaps more importantly, the 90mm bore seems to optimize emissions control.

And finally, any larger V8 (6.0L+). The current horserpower limit that any new Camaro would have is 400HP. Why? Because that's what the Corvette has. The Corvette is the performance flagship of Chevrolet if not the whole of GM. No car, especially another Chevy, can match let alone exceed the Corvette's performance. This includes simple engine output. Even though a Camaro wouldn't out handle, out brake, or out whatever a Corvette anyway, you will never see a production Camaro with more horsepower than a Corvette. The rule is relaxed with GM trucks and Cadillac but there are reasons for this. No truck will ever hold a candle to the Corvette's performance, unless you're comparing something absurd like payload capacities, and Cadillacs are luxury cars which simply puts them in a different class. Filled with amenities, the average Cadillac would probably be too heavy to take on a 'Vette anyway, even if they did have a horsepower advantage.

Aside from all that though, we're talking about a Camaro and a Camaro would not be allowed near the Corvette plain and simple. So, if a Camaro is to have anything above 400HP, you would need to see that the Corvette gets a boost too. That's the problem. The GT500 will have at least 450HP while some say it can be as high as 500HP. That's getting pretty close to the Z06! Though I'm sure the Z06 will have no trouble staying ahead of a GT500 the same may not be true with a standard Corvette at 400HP, let alone a Camaro. I would bank that the standard Corvette would still hold an advantage over the GT500 in refinement and quality in spite of the GT500's output advantage but the margin of victory would be a slim one, one that I don't think a Camaro would fit into at all.

Who did you say was kicking whose ass now?

[SweetHemi1]

It's not bad, the more choices the better!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Ok, now answer me this. How come the GTO never got the acceptance? If anything, GTO stuck much closer to its previous image of a 2dr large coupe then Charger did. It packed more HP then Charger RT and only costs a little bit more. I still see many more people balk at the sight of a GTO, then Charger. Now, I guess its popularity has picked up with its higher hp engine and low price.

Because the GTO is so BLAND, it makes a Mexican Nissan Tsuru look exciting. (http://www.nissantsuru.com.mx/gallery.asp)

Look no further, that's it.

I can understand that most potential buyers for a $30k+/V8/RWD car do not want the neighbors to think they bought a used 1995 car. That's why they stay away from the GTO, 400 hp or no 400 hp, nice interior or no nice interior.

Yes, it's closer to the original GTO in spirit; but in today's marketplace, especially in THAT segment, unbearable dullness of style alone can cause the failure of a car... more than the number of doors, it seems from experience.

Let's hope GM will correct that major flaw with their next-generation of "modern" muscle cars... (that's IF they decide to join Ford and DCX on that one!)

[MaxLegroom]

I'd say that this picture lets us in on what GM had planned for a FWD F-body, but scrapped in the late '80s. It is attractive, after a fashion, but would have sat on top of a line of 4 cylinder or v6 engined Firebirds, wouldn't it?

[TiburonJT]

Originally Posted by actionjack

I see some similarities w/ the SC2. Especially in the greenhouse and the beltline.

[salbracht]

Originally Posted by MaxLegroom

I'd say that this picture lets us in on what GM had planned for a FWD F-body, but scrapped in the late '80s. It is attractive, after a fashion, but would have sat on top of a line of 4 cylinder or v6 engined Firebirds, wouldn't it?

Actually ... no. This picture is of the "GTO" concept. It was RWD with a V-8. At the same time, GM had another concept called the GM-80 which was a FWD replacement for the F-body. As it turns out, they eventually decided to stick with RWD and the GM-80 was cancelled.

The car you see here is what was turned into the 4th gen f-bodies. (Squint, and you can see it.)

Steve

[desmo9]

If GM's "car czar" was worth as much as a cigar butt, it would not have taken a Mustang sales success to realize the need for a response. If GM always acts on a reactive basis, they'll never get ahead.

[91z4me]

Originally Posted by desmo9

If GM's "car czar" was worth as much as a cigar butt, it would not have taken a Mustang sales success to realize the need for a response. If GM always acts on a reactive basis, they'll never get ahead.

The car has been in the works in one shape or form since 2002. Lutz says its good or go back and work more. He doesn't direct what cars get made. He simply says if it is good enough. Rick Wagner on the other hand DEFINATELY has a hand in what gets made.

[desmo9]

Originally Posted by 91z4me

The car has been in the works in one shape or form since 2002.

Then why won't GM have a Mustang "challenger" until 2008, at best? No matter how you slice it, somebody is asleep at the wheel. And as for Lutz, I firmly recall, when he entered his post at GM four years ago, the Camaro project was shelved. It wasn't "good to go or back to work", it was "work no more." The guy had absolutely no use for authentic American product in 2002. Short of doing HHR, which was just a spin off of something that worked for Chrysler in 2001, GM's got a big void in what would now be a strong market attractor.

Ask yourself ... with 4-year model cycles, and with Lutz getting started in 2002, why must we wait until 2009 to see the "good stuff?" I'll tell you why ... because he had to wait until Ford and Chrysler's 2005 launches before having any confidence in what the market wants (aside from Toyota clones). This isn't the work of some $2 million a year car czar, it's the work of an auto enthusiast with some business experience. Those are a dime a dozen.

[desmo9]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

My choice for the '07 or '08 Chevrolet Chevelle, with very minor massaging. This car is pretty. Even some elements of retro, or heritage, that is very subtle. I like it.

That SS concept is way overrated. If they build something that looks like that, it'll do about as well as the SS-R. These types of vehicles make the auto-show crowds all gaga, but when produced they don't sell very well ... regardless of price.

This is like an Audi A6 with some french-curve inspired fenders, overdone I might add, and some stupid looking headlights. I'll accept it as a concept, but if this is what they have in mind to combat something like the Mustang, then they really don't understand the market.

[327]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66
My choice for the '07 or '08 Chevrolet Chevelle, with very minor massaging. This car is pretty. Even some elements of retro, or heritage, that is very subtle. I like it.



it would be better if they did that with the Holden Commodore with minor massaging

[mk1700]

I want a Camaro but please, dont do what GM do with the GTO: Just a redbadged Holden. They look so strange here in America!
I want a real RWD, kick *****, american Pony car.

[desmo9]

Originally Posted by mk1700

I want a Camaro but please, dont do what GM do with the GTO: Just a redbadged Holden. They look so strange here in America!
I want a real RWD, kick *****, american Pony car.

You're entitled to an opinion, but more and more people are discovering the car and disagreeing with your sentiment. It grows on you, and while not intended to be a Mustang response, it's a pretty sleek car. I think, if you spend alot of time around the car, you begin to notice aspects that don't stand out on a quick glance.

I mean, name one, just one GM car under $40K that looks substantially better than the GTO. Yeah, I know that's not saying too much ... but I personally think the Monaro is about as well-styled as any mainstream GM product ... and the design is several years old, to boot. The G6 coupe is all-new, and personally, I think it has little or nothing on the Monaro/GTO.