Perception: Foreign vs Domestic... I Revive Reality

[CmicasatheGreat]

General rule of thumb is... if an AUTOMAKER is perceived to make bad products... then stay away from their products. Thus because of PERCEPTION these days, companies like GM, Ford, Chrysler, Hyundai/Kia, and VW have trouble convincing naysayers to buy a segment of their offerings. As always I will use GM as an example... because I love GM, and if GM were a girl... at my old High School... I would have definitely tried to bang her after the Prom.... GM is just that fine.

OK... my point is: With perceptions in place it is well considered, but slowly changing, that Honda and Toyota are the Compact/Mid-size cars to have based on reliability, resale, value, and quality... altho last year and this year Toyota suffered unbelievable amounts of recalls, quality issues, and even Class-Action Suits due to cover-ups of issues that span back 10 years... a time period when this FALSE PERCEPTION was being forged about their products. Honda has also had it's share of woes and quality issues... witness the new Civic, Accord, Odyssey, and RL.

Their cars are "the GOLD STANDARD" as one foolish poster here (who had a deer as a signature) likes to flaunt. WITH ALL THESE ISSUES....

But I ask: WHEN DID THEY EVER BECOME THE STANDARD IN TRUCKS and SUVS??

The Domestics never lost ground in this area. Quality never fell. Sales are rising in fact. Products remain fresh. Fuel Economy is second to NONE in that segment. Technology is being implemented in them to continue the trend.

That being said: WHY do WE even need a Tundra... Sequoia... 4runner...Highlander...Pilot...Ridgeline... Sante Fe... Tribeca... etc? None of even these vehicles truly stand out in their segments. Some are lauded as being less than significant. With exception to the Pilot... which one of those mentioned above even exude mediocrity?

I just don't see the need. Buying a foreign make can be a justifiable experience IF... the quality of the alternative, the domestic, is below par. In an Economic atmosphere like the one we are in now... the time has come to buy your OWN INDUSTRY'S PRODUCTS.

Being a SHILL for the Imports is so CRAZY to me. Even if U like Honda for instance, why in recognizing their achievement don't U actually recognize the exact same, sometime superior achievement of GM or FORD (example: Hydrogen Fuel Cells)? Why would a TRUE American... with an ounce of brains... Root for the Foreign company, while PUTTING DOWN the Domestic ones... even tho the Domestics' progress and achievements are equal or better than the Foreign one???

What's funny is that the majority of the DOMESTIC cars I see sitting on the side of the road these days are normally like 15-20 years old... Doesn't it stand to reason that after some of these cars have been used and abused for 300K miles... normally on their 4-5th owner ... that they would have problems??? Contrary 2 this is that the majority of FOREIGN cars I see on the side of the road or on a Roll Back are usually 1-7 years old...

How can we gauge the reliability and quality of a car first and foremost if we were not the original owners. I usually talk trash about my one NEWLY purchased Japanese car, the GREAT POS in the sky Toyota Camry, but very seldom mention the fact that I have had other Japanese CRAP boxes that I had purchased from someone else... sometimes as a third owner no less. Using the mileage as the pentacle of their quality and how well they treated me and how long they lasted has always been my reason for not bombarding bad words about my Mazda, Nissan, or BMW.

Why do I not single these cars out for their dis-service to me... sometimes leaving me stranded, costing me huge piles of cash, or at the very least causing me to get hot and sweaty on the side of the freeway. But buying a USED car is different. Think about how U treat your car. Think about the visions of NASCAR U sometimes have from one stoplight to the next... A Mazdaspeed6 versus a Maserati anyone??? How about a Pontiac G6 versus a GTO??? These races are testament that our cars seriously get abused and DOGGED out on a regular basis. Sometimes it has ZERO to do with another driver revving his engine next to U, but many times having much to do with being late to the girl o your dreams house for a first date... getting to Physics 301 on time as to not 2 embarrass yourself... getting to your cubicle at American Honda Indiana, as to not get the boss mad enough that he restricts your posting on the GM Forum.... Oh but I digress... they pay U for that.

Point is that WE DOGGGGGG these cars out, and do it for 100K -200K miles not keeping to regular OIL CHANGE intervals, not checking the Internet for Service Bulletins and recalls... and then hand the keys over to some poor fool who has used Consumer Reports as his tool for telling him that a 2001 Toyota Camry is a good car. Reliable and made of sugar and spice. He buys the car from his co-worker... 6 issues of Consumer Reports later.. he reads that the 2001 Camry was included in a CLASS ACTION SUIT for Sludge. So much for Consumer Reports... for it was POINTLESS.

[eurohazard]

Nice ramblings! lol That is a lot of material for one thread.

That being said: WHY do WE even need a Tundra... Sequoia... 4runner...Highlander...Pilot...Ridgeline... Sante Fe... Tribeca... etc? None of even these vehicles truly stand out in their segments. Some are lauded as being less than significant. With exception to the Pilot... which one of those mentioned above even exude mediocrity?

You often have a strange way to make a point.
Tundra...I am not a fan of this truck either. They skimped where they needed beef the most: FRAME.
Sequoia...Sequoia is pretty good. The frame is fully boxed unlike the Tundra. But it shares the lame Tundra interior (which is OK for a "truck", but a $40-$50k SUV should have a nicer dash/materials etc.
4runner...The 4Runner has been around for a long time, and it has constantly improved with every generation. The Chevrolet (S-10) Blazer has come and gone. The Ford Explorer came after the 4Runner.
Highlander...It's OK. It's just a tall Camry wagon though.
Pilot...More on this in a bit...
Ridgeline...This is a joke of a truck. It shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as any 1/2 ton truck....but it is a comfortable suburb family hauler with mini-truck capability.
Sante Fe...Hyundai wanted an "SUV" too. lol
Tribeca...Not my cup of tea, or anyone's unless they like ugly cars. But the AWD system is probably 2nd to none in its class.

Now about the Pilot. First of all the Pilot has won a few comparison tests....yes even over a Lambda SUV. The Pilot is based on the Acura MDX. The 2001 Acura MDX is truly a great benchmark for all car makers. Honda was the first at nothing other than putting all the right ingredients for a recipe to make a nice family hauler:
- Powerful transversely mounted V6
- 5 or 6 speed AT
- FWD based AWD system
- 3 rows (that 3rd row stows neatly and flat)
- Unibody, for lightness, safety, and rigidity

Think I am on crack? Find another SUV using this formula before the 2001 MDX came out?

But now see how many use that formula today:
- Buick Rendezvous
- Buick Enclave
- Chevy Traverse (BOF Blazer has some and gone, as has the TrailBlazer)
- Chrysler Pacifica
- Dodge Journey
- Ford Freestyle
- Ford Taurus X
- Ford Flex
- GMC Acadia
- Hyundai Veracruz
- Mazda CX-9
- Pontiac Aztek
- Saturn Outlook
- Toyota Highlander
- Volvo XC-90

This doesn't include close calls like the Cadillac SRX, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, or VW Touareg.

I just think you underestimate the competition sometimes cmicasa. Sometimes, you're right though.

[Wolfman01]

Being a shill for the domestics is every bit as crazy as being a shill for the imports. I've owned plenty of both import and domestic cars to know that every one has their strengths and weaknesses. Every automaker hit's home runs on some products, and strikes out on others, and catastrophically screws up on a few more.

If you look back to the day when the imports initially started taking up noteworthy levels of market share in the U.S., they were doing so as the domestics were universally strutting about in their arrogance with the ideology that they could foist whatever piece of crap on the market that they wished, and the public would buy them. Back in those days, the primary problem with Japanese cars was rust. This is obviously not a small problem, but the rustbuckets would literally run untill the engines fell out of their rusty frames. You could then take the engine, and put it to use on something else. My Nissan is from that era. The 3.0V6 is known to regularly run 300k and 400k miles without needing to be touched. The TRICK is to keep the body intact. Mine is a southern truck, always has been, and is virtually rust free (two small spots in the bed slated for grinding and primer).

Back in those same days, brand new cars would fail to start on the dealership lots, or they'd rattle so bad in the test drive, that you'd swear the thing wasn't going to survive the drive. Mechanically, they'd be allright, so long as you could keep their tempremantal carbs functioning, didn't mind repeatedly replacing starters, alternators, and power steering pumps, and screwing the loose screws back together. GM in particular couldn't keep electrical systems in working order. GM got slapped with class action lawsuits for the infamous 350 olds self destructing diesel. Ford got slapped with their own lawsuits over the Pinto and their tendancy to explode on impact. Chrysler not to be left out of the "we cannot build a car no matter what" foray, needed a bailout by the feds.

Since planned obselescence nearly killed the domestics, their next foray into cutting costs at all costs brought us interiors comparable in quality to the butt of all automotive jokes - the yugo. During this time, the Japanese learned how to make body panels that didn't rust as they rolled down the assembly line, and continued to advance and improve upon their products. GM still couldn't keep electrical systems in working order, Chryslers still fell apart a few years after purchase, and Ford still sent out memos to their service centers to warn them what parts were about to start breaking on their cars, so they could stock up.

Now here we are in Y2k, and two Japanese automakers see that a large niche can be exploited with the advancement of hybrid vehciles. Honda's efforts have fallen comparatively short, but Toyota knocks one out of the ballpark. Ford, GM, and Chrysler all snicker at the faggoty nerdmobiles and continue to build ever bigger trucks and SUVs, all the while conceding ever bigger chunks of market share into a market that they've largely ignored, as they would barely advance one tired model after another through their cycles enough to be noticed.

Once again, arrogance gets the best of them, as they chose to mock hybrid technology, only to be dragged kicking and screaming into the market woefully late and with largely laughable examples (except Escape Hybrid) by $4 gas.

The big three had a huge opportunity to have offerings into the market back when klinkton/bore did the 80mpg car program in exchange for not advancing CAFE regulations. They all got huge chunks of taxpayer dollars, displayed the efforts of their design teams, only to dismiss them as unmarketable. Toyota wanted a piece of that pie themselves, only to [rightly] be told to pound sand. They responded by bringing us the Prius.

Now, I love my Impala. While on a chassis way overdue to be updated, it still shows as an example of what GM can do right when they want. Other Lutz managed products follow the same formula with nice recent success.

My Cherokee, being cheap the plastic fantastic thing that it was, always started and ran, even when it would sit for months on end between uses. My F150, also another cheap plastic fantastic example of what needs to be improved, needed only two items fixed during the time that I owned it, and it has 168K on the odometer. As of now, I'd still drive the Ford over the Nissan in the event that I needed to take a truck cross country, and the Nissan has 100k FEWER miles on it. The Nissan has a sizeable laundry list of items needing attention - some due to sitting, some due to age. The fact still remains that the domestics refused to even attempt to compete in the market place, due in part to never letting go of the arrogance that they employed back when the entire import marketplace barely cracked 1% of the U.S. auto market.

The domestics exist in their current state due not just to union greed, but their refusal to take their competition seriously, and offer products that would draw any new buyers into their showrooms. I think that is FINALLY beginning to change. The question remains whether they have the time to prove that they are serious about offering competitive products this time around in time to avoid death.

[mgescuro]

That stream of consciousness is a variety of poorly structured sentences and fragments. It made it nearly impossible to read coherently without going back and re-reading.

Imports are the standard in trucks and SUV? Yeah. Absolutely. Anything that isn't a full sized SUV or Truck from a domestic manufacturer has run up against significant competition.

Why? Because Detroit flubbed the market as usual. What happened to the Ranger or Colorado? There's a reason Tacoma leads the compact truck segment. How about compact SUVs? Santa Fe is the leader. VUE is competitive. Equinox might be able to steal sales when the new one arrives.

Perceptions will change once Detroit gets its act together.
Detroit can make better trucks. Detroit can make better cars. The problem is, Detroit is falling behind model year after model year.

Why?

It's not because of cash. It's not because of the UAW. It's because they move too slow against market forces and market changes. And they are content on saying "We make better cars" without backing it up with convincing product. (However, Ford is making better headway than the other Detroit 3.)

Time will tell.

[FenwickHockey65]

As always I will use GM as an example... because I love GM, and if GM were a girl... at my old High School... I would have definitely tried to bang her after the Prom.... GM is just that fine.

I have heard people profess their love and loyalty to the company in many ways, but never quite like this.

[jmlee0695]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I have heard people profess their love and loyalty to the company in many ways, but never quite like this.

casa has a way with words

[eurohazard]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

I have heard people profess their love and loyalty to the company in many ways, but never quite like this.

We used to get away with murder at Auto Week!

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by eurohazard

That is a lot of material for one thread.

Yes, I'm still digesting it.

There are some real gems for sure.

The 2001 Acura MDX is truly a great benchmark for all car makers. Honda was the first at nothing other than putting all the right ingredients for a recipe to make a nice family hauler:
- Powerful transversely mounted V6
- 5 or 6 speed AT
- FWD based AWD system
- 3 rows (that 3rd row stows neatly and flat)
- Unibody, for lightness, safety, and rigidity

Think I am on crack? Find another SUV using this formula before the 2001 MDX came out?

Now, we can usefully illustrate some of what CmicasatheGreat is talking about here by using part of your post.

Number one, lets just say for now you have some points about the MDX that capture a great deal of the essence of that vehicle and its place in the market.

However, we really do need to acurize our Acura here at least a bit.

So, lets just start with automatic transmissions.

The MDX as you point out, was first offered for MYR2001 and continues to be offered today.

During this time it has used a 5 speed automatic transmission of two or now possibly three major models and numerous variations of the first major variant offered.

To this day, at least in America and Canada for sure, Honda has not offered a multiple fixed gear automatic transmission with a greater gear count than five.

I believe this still holds true worldwide but I'm not up to date on all of it.

The 'nice to have' aspect of all this when the MDX was first introduced in 2001 was that 'five' was relatively rare and its most direct competition offered 'only' four.

However, there was a price to paid here.

Honda got way ahead of themselves and this was actually one of their more notorious 5 speed failamatic transmissions.

The recall, late in coming was this.

Make: ACURA Model: MDX
Model Year: 2001
Manufacturer: HONDA (AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.) Mfr's Report Date: APR 13, 2004
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 04V176000
N/A
NHTSA Action Number: N/A
Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Potential Number of Units Affected: 1099796
Summary:
ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
Consequence:
GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
Remedy:
ON VEHICLES WITH 15,000 MILES OR LESS, THE DEALER WILL UPDATE THE TRANSMISSION WITH A SIMPLE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE TO INCREASE LUBRICATION TO THE SECOND GEAR. ON VEHICLES WITH MORE THAN 15,000 MILES, THE DEALER WILL INSPECT THE TRANSMISSION TO IDENTIFY GEARS THAT HAVE ALREADY EXPERIENCED DISCOLORATION DUE TO OVERHEATING. IF DISCOLORATION EXISTS, THE TRANSMISSION WILL BE REPLACED IF DISCOLORATION IS NOT PRESENT, THE DEALER WILL PERFORM THE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 21, 2004, FOR PILOT, ODYSSEY, AND MDX OWNERS. OWNERS OF THE ACCORD VEHICLES WILL START RECEIVING LETTERS ON JUNE 28, 2004, AND ON JUNE 29, 2004, FOR OWNERS OF THE TL AND CL VEHICLES. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.
Notes:
HONDA RECALL NOS. P30 (ODYSSEY AND PILOT), P31 (MDX), P38 (ACCORD) AND P39 (ACURA). CUSTOMERS CAN ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION¿S AUTO SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-DASH-2-DOT (1-888-327-4236).

Notice the date.

The final 'solution set' wasn't reached until well into 2006 and that's an overly charitable definition of the word 'final'.

And then this.

There are about 180 tsbs for this this vehicle on the 2001.

That of course counts all the silly stuff but there are 'about' 25 or so that relate to the AT / AWD etc.

Again, you have some really minor stuff in that pile but you also have some that did or still do really matter maybe about 7 -15 depending on how you want to group them.

The point is, it was a long and dragged out story.

[CHEVYSOL]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

It's because they move too slow against market forces and market changes.

Very funny!

I think GM has to fly ahead of market, leading, stirring, inspiring.

If not – get right behind the leader and copy every move.
Smile realistically, constantly, vigorously.
Yep enthusiastically and don’t beg for money.

It’ll make you look alive, at least for a while.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

To this day, at least in America and Canada for sure, Honda has not offered a multiple fixed gear automatic transmission with a greater gear count than five

Sorry to take this thread somewhat off topic, but why doesn't Honda come out with a transmission with more than 5 gears? Whats holding them up?

[wescoent]

Perception.

The only thing that will change perception for ANY brand or company, will be 10-15 years of consistent and up to date product.

GM's problem is they introduce a great product, never update it, kill it, then spend billions to bring out something all-new with no brand recognition.

Toyota has not 100% redesigned the Camry since the mid 1990's, and has not changed the name since it was introduced. It has been consistently soft, bland, and long-lasting. Everyone knows what a Camry is, hence, why they buy them in large numbers.

This is the ONLY way to do it. Slow and consistent. If a car doesn't sell well at first, FIX what's wrong with it... don't kill it.

[eurohazard]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

Sorry to take this thread somewhat off topic, but why doesn't Honda come out with a transmission with more than 5 gears? Whats holding them up?

They really haven't needed it. They use Continuously Variable Transmissions with their hybrids. And the 5-speed ATs are spaced very well to make great use of what power the motor makes.

Besides, every real Honda guy/girl knows that Honda's best transmissions are the manual transmissions. 5MT and 6MT are available depending on what car you're looking at.

But I have a feeling that, like America 123 pointed out, Honda didn't exactly set a reliability record with their first 5AT. If they are working on 6AT or 7AT...they are probably making it more durable. That's purely speculation though.

[member12]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Perception.

The only thing that will change perception for ANY brand or company, will be 10-15 years of consistent and up to date product.

GM's problem is they introduce a great product, never update it, kill it, then spend billions to bring out something all-new with no brand recognition.

Toyota has not 100% redesigned the Camry since the mid 1990's, and has not changed the name since it was introduced. It has been consistently soft, bland, and long-lasting. Everyone knows what a Camry is, hence, why they buy them in large numbers.

This is the ONLY way to do it. Slow and consistent. If a car doesn't sell well at first, FIX what's wrong with it... don't kill it.

You just described exactly why people buy Silverados and F150s. Basic design that hasn't been changed often. The lackluster quality control isn't that big of a deal if you are dealing with the same technology for decades. Gradual improvements every year as opposed to complete redesigns every 4 or 5 years have paid off here.

The Corolla and the Focus are other good examples. The first Focus sucked...with unreliable engines, bad electronics, and shoddy construction. Gradually things improved with new Mazda engines. When they got all the bugs worked out of the design, they decided to stick with it. The current Focus is a re-fresh of a very solid design. It uses parts that have been proven to Ford, and because of that it's a solid buy. The Corolla refresh is the same thing: it's bland and boring, but you know you are getting a reliable product that's been proven over the years.

It will take decades of great cars before people take notice. I like to say that GM is on their way, but they are not. As long as any crappy cars are sitting on dealers lots with the potential in getting into customer's hands, GM is still at square 1. Aveo, Equinox, G6, SRX, those minivan things, etc....not to mention the quality problems so enthusiastically pointed out in Consumer's Reports with the Lambada crossovers, CTS, and nearly every GM car. Let's just say that an "Average" rating in this category is not acceptable. Everything must be as close to perfect as possible.

Ford is making much better progress in this area than GM. You know what you are getting with Ford. Its still hit or miss with GM, and that even includes their supposedly solid products. I'm talking about everything from the dealerships to the horrid quality control. I don't understand with these nutty union rules why they can't put a little more manpower on quality control.

The Equinox may be an attractive crossover, but if it appears to have been put together by a bunch of blind monkeys, then it's not going to be a positive force at GM. There needs to be a complete and total overhaul of the quality control process at General Motors. What ever they are doing now sucks. What makes matters worse is that when there's a problem, dealer support is in most cases not acceptable.

It doesn't stop there. Assembly quality on some GM cars are actually quite good...but their parts suck. There's a lot of suppliers that need their walking papers. The lowest bidder is not the best choice anymore.

[PA Dweller]

Originally Posted by eurohazard

They really haven't needed it. They use Continuously Variable Transmissions with their hybrids. And the 5-speed ATs are spaced very well to make great use of what power the motor makes.

Besides, every real Honda guy/girl knows that Honda's best transmissions are the manual transmissions. 5MT and 6MT are available depending on what car you're looking at.

But I have a feeling that, like America 123 pointed out, Honda didn't exactly set a reliability record with their first 5AT. If they are working on 6AT or 7AT...they are probably making it more durable. That's purely speculation though.

I heard much about Honda's 5 speed auto's having problems, but if they don't release a auto with more gears people might start criticizing them right? Look how many people complained about GM using 4 speeds.

[eurohazard]

Originally Posted by PA Dweller

I heard much about Honda's 5 speed auto's having problems, but if they don't release a auto with more gears people might start criticizing them right? Look how many people complained about GM using 4 speeds.

I agree with you man. Worth mentioning is the fact 4AT can still be had on many GM models. But yes, if Honda doesn't match the 6AT trend...it will absolutely be a knock....particularly with the Acura brands.