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Thread: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    When you think about the money that these people make and how unbalanced it is because of the union. Can you blame any manufacturer for going elsewhere? Everything you have just read is based on a starting salary. Most of these workers are also making over time on top of that salary. You should hear the crap hit the fan when they get put back on regular hours!!!!

    I am not saying that unions weren't needed when they began but this crap has got to stop! Honest work at an honest wage!

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Those wage levels quoted are just... obscene, for unskilled and semi-skilled work!

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golf PEI
    Before everyone goes crazy, $30 an hour translates to around $60,000 a year. There isn't a "starting salary" in the UAW, all trades make the same, all assemblers make the same.

    They must be including benefits, excessive overtime, future pension value, etc. in the calculation to get that high.

    I'm not defending the salary, but I hate when people jump to conclusions and make wild assumptions... regardless of the topic.
    Yes there is a starting wage that is 70% of what full wage is and it takes 3-4 years to get to full scale for assemblers. I work there and made high 30's the first year while everone else was pushing 60 back in 2000. In the trades the apprentices dont make the same wages as the journeymen.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueStreakGTO
    Those wage levels quoted are just... obscene, for unskilled and semi-skilled work!
    Unless you plan on working there for less money shut up.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    This is why they filed for bankruptcy, plain and simple.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    [QUOTE=Golf PEI]Before everyone goes crazy, $30 an hour translates to around $60,000 a year. There isn't a "starting salary" in the UAW, all trades make the same, all assemblers make the same.

    Just to get things right.
    I`m a tool and die maker for GM.
    All trades make almost the same money per hour.
    But I had to have 8 years of experience to get a job
    at GM. How many years does it take to be a lawyer or teacher?
    Yes, unskilled are paid too much, when you can
    start 8 years sooner than I did. And retire 8 years sooner.



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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    It's pretty simple, if you want to live in a country with a high standard of living you have to have a way for the average guy to make a....high standard of living. 50K a year is hardly going to put a guy in a mansion, but it means that with 2 or 3 kids he can afford a modest house and put his kids through college. It is quite necessary to all of us that people are able to do that. If they can't then our more technical jobs are obviated due to a lack of consumer cash running around our markets.

    Quit complaining you went to college, and 'have a degree.' College was fun, and intellectually challenging, which should be it's own reward. If you're jealous of someone doing the mind numbing work of repetitive manufacturing labor, at any number of dollars per hour, then you shouldn't have gone to college in the first place.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    [QUOTE=Kliph]
    Quote Originally Posted by Golf PEI
    Before everyone goes crazy, $30 an hour translates to around $60,000 a year. There isn't a "starting salary" in the UAW, all trades make the same, all assemblers make the same.

    Just to get things right.
    I`m a tool and die maker for GM.
    All trades make almost the same money per hour.
    But I had to have 8 years of experience to get a job
    at GM. How many years does it take to be a lawyer or teacher?
    Yes, unskilled are paid too much, when you can
    start 8 years sooner than I did. And retire 8 years sooner.



    The UAW's insistence on (almost) parity between regular labor and skilled-trades is just another example of how out of touch with reality they are. Some of the skilled trades, and I mean some, are probably worth the $27/hr figure.

    Here's the flaw in your logic, though, with respect to other professions: You make the high wage with no experience, and it stays there as you gain experience. You say it takes 8 years to gain "experience." Teachers must spend 6 years in college. That alone is at least $20K a year, and they're losing an average of $30K a year in income they'd make if they weren't in school (opportunity cost). So over six years, it's $300K. What's your monetary investment? Did you come to GM fully-equipped to be a toolmaker? No, they paid you full wages to do learn it and gain the experience. Teacher salaries begin in the gutter, and rise as they become more experienced. It takes an average teacher 6 years in college and 10 years on the job to make the same paycheck you made before you even learned how to turn the lathe on.

    All professions and trades require experience ... lawyers are far from perfect after spending 7 years and $500K on an education. They need many years of experience to master the job.

    So the differences are 1) you didn't invest 6 or 7 years in tuition and loss of income to gain the opportunity to do your job, and 2) although you'll take offense to this .. almost anybody can be taught to work in skilled trades (almost), but not everyone can be an effective lawyer and teacher.

    Labor likes to pick out the worst engineers, teachers, and lawyers and use those examples to gather up a sense of entitlement for professional-level pay scales. But like skilled trades, all professions have useless folk and effective folk. the useless engineers and lawyers are probably worth less than the best skilled-trades folk. But apples to apples, it's clearly the other way around.
    Last edited by desmo9; 11-13-2005 at 09:08 PM.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by desmo9
    and 2) although you'll take offense to this .. almost anybody can be taught to work in skilled trades (almost), but not everyone can be an effective lawyer and teacher.
    Based on my experience on the receiving end of bad teachers, I think it's fair to say that 'the system' fails to consider that some people do not have the ability to make good teachers...

    Then again, teachers aren't a good example of market-driven labour policies at all, given how the majority of them work for some branch of the government and are generally underpaid... (which no doubt explains WHY there are so many bad teachers around)

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by desmo9
    The UAW's insistence on (almost) parity between regular labor and skilled-trades is just another example of how out of touch with reality they are. Some of the skilled trades, and I mean some, are probably worth the $27/hr figure.

    Here's the flaw in your logic, though, with respect to other professions: You make the high wage with no experience, and it stays there as you gain experience. You say it takes 8 years to gain "experience." Teachers must spend 6 years in college. That alone is at least $20K a year, and they're losing an average of $30K a year in income they'd make if they weren't in school (opportunity cost). So over six years, it's $300K. What's your monetary investment? Did you come to GM fully-equipped to be a toolmaker? No, they paid you full wages to do learn it and gain the experience. Teacher salaries begin in the gutter, and rise as they become more experienced. It takes an average teacher 6 years in college and 10 years on the job to make the same paycheck you made before you even learned how to turn the lathe on.

    All professions and trades require experience ... lawyers are far from perfect after spending 7 years and $500K on an education. They need many years of experience to master the job.

    So the differences are 1) you didn't invest 6 or 7 years in tuition and loss of income to gain the opportunity to do your job, and 2) although you'll take offense to this .. almost anybody can be taught to work in skilled trades (almost), but not everyone can be an effective lawyer and teacher.

    Labor likes to pick out the worst engineers, teachers, and lawyers and use those examples to gather up a sense of entitlement for professional-level pay scales. But like skilled trades, all professions have useless folk and effective folk. the useless engineers and lawyers are probably worth less than the best skilled-trades folk. But apples to apples, it's clearly the other way around.
    well said...

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    1) If you're a teacher, engineer, lawyer, etc. that is that jealous of a guy who has to operate a lathe for his whole life you definitely chose the wrong profession. It is generally assumed that people that choose that profession did so out of some reason other than merely money. Also, for most of these jobs, in today's world you are just as replaceable as a lathe worker, except for teachers perhaps. Especially so considering the number of degree-holders coming from India and other places.

    2) I would also argue that the same number of people that can be taught to operate a lathe are the same number of people that can be taught to teach, practice law, and so on. It's really not that hard. Assuming you apply yourself to a moderate degree just about anybody can study the same subject for 4-6 years and be at least competent.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by nadepalma
    Oh My God -- 130K a year in total compensation? That's ridiculous! I'm not against anyone making a few bucks for hardwork, but 130K a year for a union job? I know that includes health benefits and all that -- but even if 12K a year were for those benefits (which is high considering), that leaves 118K a year....Dear God, I'm in the wrong business.


    This seems a bit more reasonable, but I don't know how many new workers they'll have to hire to balance the books....


    Okay, let me get this straight - GM is paying Janitors a starting salary of $24.98 an hour? If you figure a 40 hour work week and 52 weeks a year that's 51,958.00 a year in salary. Not to say that Janitors don't work hard and deserve to be compensated, but doesn't that seem like an awful lot for a STARTING salary? Other skilled union workers that have years of training and experience, I guess you can see making that money, but a starting Janitor?

    Even looking at an entry-level assembler -- $25.57 an hour is $53,185.00 a year -- and that's STARTING. It's not even like they were working a few years and worked their way up. I don't want to sound like jerk or talk down about the unions, but could this be part of the reason that GM is having so many financial/labor related issues? I mean these numbers are pretty high as it is, I'm not even sure how long you'd have to be working an assemblyline to make 130K a year in total compensation.

    Holy crap, I should forget about trying to get into law school and just move to Detroit to work on an assemblyline.

    Does somebody know what Toyota/Honda/Nissan/BMW/Mecedes Benz/Hyundai pay their non-Unionized shops for doing similar work? Couldn't this be part of the equation?

    Its no wonder GM cannot put as much development dollars into their cars as the competition. Its no wonder they are dying.

    UAW > Toyota/Honda/BMW/Mercedes/Nissan....

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    [QUOTE=desmo9]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kliph


    The UAW's insistence on (almost) parity between regular labor and skilled-trades is just another example of how out of touch with reality they are. Some of the skilled trades, and I mean some, are probably worth the $27/hr figure.

    Here's the flaw in your logic, though, with respect to other professions: You make the high wage with no experience, and it stays there as you gain experience. You say it takes 8 years to gain "experience." Teachers must spend 6 years in college. That alone is at least $20K a year, and they're losing an average of $30K a year in income they'd make if they weren't in school (opportunity cost). So over six years, it's $300K. What's your monetary investment? Did you come to GM fully-equipped to be a toolmaker? No, they paid you full wages to do learn it and gain the experience. Teacher salaries begin in the gutter, and rise as they become more experienced. It takes an average teacher 6 years in college and 10 years on the job to make the same paycheck you made before you even learned how to turn the lathe on.

    All professions and trades require experience ... lawyers are far from perfect after spending 7 years and $500K on an education. They need many years of experience to master the job.

    So the differences are 1) you didn't invest 6 or 7 years in tuition and loss of income to gain the opportunity to do your job, and 2) although you'll take offense to this .. almost anybody can be taught to work in skilled trades (almost), but not everyone can be an effective lawyer and teacher.

    Labor likes to pick out the worst engineers, teachers, and lawyers and use those examples to gather up a sense of entitlement for professional-level pay scales. But like skilled trades, all professions have useless folk and effective folk. the useless engineers and lawyers are probably worth less than the best skilled-trades folk. But apples to apples, it's clearly the other way around.

    No, let me say this again. You had to have 8 years experience to get the job in the first place. Not counting trade school. (not UAW, but a skilled trades union at GM) I did not gain it on the job. I had almost ten years experience working at low paid jobs before I worked at GM.
    And no, not everyone is an effective tool and did maker, beleave me,
    I`v seen them all after almost 40 years. Just as there are some lawyers and teachers that are not effective, again I`v seen both.
    I agree un-skilled are paid tooo much.

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike's 01ws6
    Unless you plan on working there for less money shut up.
    All right, I'll go there for $50,000K a year and a HAP hmo. Now put your money where your mouth is!!!!!

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    Re: GM/Delphi: UAW workers get 130K a year in compensation?

    Quote Originally Posted by DuSpinnst
    You have got some problems. And I'd work plenty of places for less than what the UAW makes, it probably has to do with the fact that I am unemployeed. It doesn't even matter that I have an engineering degree, I'd still take an automotive line job if I made decent money. AKA more than McDonalds/Best Buy pays.
    Hey DuSpinnst, you're always welcome to stay with me and my buddies here in Saint Clair Shores if things get tough. We already have one engineer here already. Everybody stays here for free until they get back on their feet.

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