Diesel engines are catching up

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33

Thread: Diesel engines are catching up

  1. #1
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    293
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Diesel engines are catching up

    I know a lot of people scoff at Diesel-powered cars - indeed I was one of them until recently - but they have come along so far in the last decade or so that they are forcing people to sit up and take notice. Even the most devout petrol-head can't deny that the diesel engine has become remarkably refined and capable in recent times. For the first time in automotive history, diesel cars are out-selling their gasoline equivalents in certain parts of the World.

    The question is, will they ever catch on in America? I'd love to hear some opinions on diesel cars from Americans (and Canadians & Australians too).
    Do you think there's a market for them in the USA? Do they sell any at the moment? Or do you regard having anything other than a gas-powered motor under the hood as sacrilege?

    All opinions greatly appreciated.

    (P.S. Just a video of a diesel 5-Series from the UK show "Top Gear" below.)




  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    17,800
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 115 Times in 84 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    I think US perception of diesel is misunderstood

    Basically anywhere diesel option is offered, diesel dominates in US market

    Heavy-duty trucks = 100 % diesel

    Heavy-duty pickup trucks, diesel is an expensive option, 75% diesel

    VW Jetta, Mercedes models, random Jeeps of 5 years ago, diesel very popular and hold resale value much better.

    It really seems that demand for diesel is much larger than the offer at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any model line where diesel is available, that diesel is not popular.

  4. #3
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    293
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr View Post
    VW Jetta, Mercedes models, random Jeeps of 5 years ago, diesel very popular and hold resale value much better.
    there doesn't seem to be any model line where diesel is available, that diesel is not popular.
    REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

    So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

    What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?

  5. #4
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    17,800
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 115 Times in 84 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by The Leprechaun View Post
    REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

    So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

    What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?
    I think the diesel picture is essentially the same. There might be more diesel interest here, but the offering is the same. Not sure why cold weather would like diesel, old diesel are very hard to start when cold and if the battery is not so good, you go nowhere (but new diesel is just twist the key, amazing)

    The only cars with diesel option is basically VW Golf/Jetta/Passat (big American-made Passat) and the Mercedes E class, but they sell a lot.

    Mercedes' diesel SUV's (ML, GL, R etc) are very popular here in Montreal. I would say they outnumber the gas models.

    In a nutshell, diesel is not popular overall, but anywhere a diesel can be had, it costs a lot of money to buy (new or used) and people are lining up the block for them. The difference gets silly on old cars, something like a 2000 Jetta is worth $500 or $1000 if it is the regular gasoline model, but maybe $2500 if it is a diesel in same condition.
    Last edited by Smaart Aas Saabr; 12-13-2012 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #5
    5.3 Liter Vortec V8 Cobaltss_King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dallas. Texas
    Posts
    1,398
    Thanks
    255
    Thanked 83 Times in 45 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    I'm loving my Passat TDI mated to a manual mainly because of the range I'm able to get on a tank. If GM can offer that I would buy. The passat is my first diesel car and I don't see myself not having one in my driveway.


    Current rides: 08' Sunburst Orange Cobalt SS/TC
    12' VW Passat TDI Manual

  7. #6
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    293
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by Smaart Aas Saabr View Post

    The only cars with diesel option is basically VW Golf/Jetta/Passat (big American-made Passat) and the Mercedes E class, but they sell a lot.

    anywhere a diesel can be had, it costs a lot of money to buy (new or used) and people are lining up the block for them.
    Wow, I guess with gas prices going up people are looking toward other options. I presume diesel is cheaper than petrol over there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobaltss_King View Post
    I'm loving my Passat TDI mated to a manual mainly because of the range I'm able to get on a tank. If GM can offer that I would buy. The passat is my first diesel car and I don't see myself not having one in my driveway.
    If they're buyin' 'em in Texas then they've made inroads!!

    Indeed the Passat TDI is a good car mate. I like what they did to the American Passat to make it more suitable to that market. Its chunkier and a bit more buff looking than the Euro model and has a longer wheel-base. I think its more than a match for the Camry.

  8. #7
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    17,800
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 115 Times in 84 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by The Leprechaun View Post
    Wow, I guess with gas prices going up people are looking toward other options. I presume diesel is cheaper than petrol over there?
    Not really, diesel is almost always more expensive, and diesel was always this kind of popular. It is just few models available, but they make a large proportion of the sales.

    Maybe the peak was in 80/81 with many models (example around early 1980's all Mercedes sold in the US were diesel, except the 380SL and 500SEC and the like) and many sales but then it declined to something like this.

  9. #8
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,394
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    my benchmark NC, USA station ... this week
    * E10 is $3.199/gallon(US) (including 55.9¢ Federal and state taxes) or $2.640 before taxes
    * Diesel is $3.859/gallon(US) (including 61.9¢ Federal and state taxes) or $3.240 before taxes


    Diesels (VW) seem to have a USD $1.5k+ premium added to their pricing since 2009.

    US diesel sales are 0.93% of market for November 2012 with roughly 114k YTD.

    You will see that the selection is very limited. And, I believe this is what is holding back acceptance in the US.
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

  10. #9
    4.4 Liter Supercharged Northstar Wolfman01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Williston, ND
    Posts
    2,608
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by The Leprechaun View Post
    REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

    So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

    What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?
    I've owned a few diesel vehicles over the years - a Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins, A VW Rabbit turbodiesel that blew up in three days, A Nissan 720 Truck that used as much oil as diesel fuel, and several Mercedes 4 and 5 cylinder diesel cars. The EPA did try to effecitvely ban diesels in the U.S. without actually banning them with the current emissions rules in place. What they did not count on was the recent Euro specs for emissions, as well as mandating 15ppm diesel fuel that allowed those Euro diesels to function here. The U.S. diesel market exists despite a rocky past, and recent rediculous emissions legislation.
    1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Cierra (97k)
    1996 Tiffen Allegro Bay Class A Motorhome - GM Chassis (43k)
    2004 Saturn ION Redline (9k)
    2013 Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4 (12k)
    2014 Chevy Spark 1LT (4k)

  11. #10
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Smaart Aas Saabr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    17,800
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 115 Times in 84 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman01 View Post
    I've owned a few diesel vehicles over the years - a Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins, A VW Rabbit turbodiesel that blew up in three days, A Nissan 720 Truck that used as much oil as diesel fuel, and several Mercedes 4 and 5 cylinder diesel cars. The EPA did try to effecitvely ban diesels in the U.S. without actually banning them with the current emissions rules in place. What they did not count on was the recent Euro specs for emissions, as well as mandating 15ppm diesel fuel that allowed those Euro diesels to function here. The U.S. diesel market exists despite a rocky past, and recent rediculous emissions legislation.
    In other words, ridiculous emissions regulations that was quickly one-upped by the Belgian assimilators (Euro V) and thus became the same

  12. #11
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    163
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    We love our Duramax Silverado, just too bad that diesel fuel here is now atleast .70 cents per gallon higher than regular gas. That difference pretty much eats up any savings from the better mpg vs a gas truck.
    so many GM vehicles in my household my driveway looks like a used car lot

  13. #12
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) AMERICA 123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    12,434
    Thanks
    1,610
    Thanked 347 Times in 209 Posts
    My Ride
    The Toyota Rat Catcher

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Here is what a 'few people' think -



    ****** QUOTE******





    German automotive companies launch “clean-diesel” marketing campaign in US

    12 December 2012

    Six German automotive companies—passenger car manufacturers Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche and Volkswagen, and the supplier Bosch—launched their first joint campaign for diesels in the US. Under the slogan “Clean Diesel. Clearly Better.” they will argue for the advantages of modern diesel passenger car technology over gasoline engines in terms of cleanliness, consumption and performance.

    The new vehicle market share of light-duty diesels in the US is quite low (2.6%) compared with a diesel share of 55% in Western Europe. However, sales of diesel passenger cars by German manufacturers—representing 100% of the market in diesel passenger cars in the US—have more than doubled over the last three years. In the first nine months of the current year, around 69,600 diesel cars were sold in the USA, compared to 30,600 for the same period in 2009.

    Diesel vehicles have also shown strong gains among total light vehicles (passenger cars and light trucks). Up to September 2012, 284,400 light vehicles with diesel engines were sold, compared with only 160,000 units in the year 2009. The German manufacturers pushed up their market share of the diesel light vehicle segment from 25% to 37%. Their sales multiplied by two and a half (from 40,000 units to over 104,000).

    The campaign, which has been developed jointly by the German Association of the Automotive Industry (VDA) and VDA member companies, comprises a website and flanking offline activities on the US market by the companies involved. Their common goal is to create a multi-brand information platform for clean diesels among the US population.

    Using brief examples from everyday motoring in the US, the website explains the dynamics of the diesel drivetrain and its advantages in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, low noise emissions and refueling costs and also addresses outdated concerns regarding diesel cars. For example, website users can not only easily calculate the consumption advantage of a diesel vehicle, but can also hear the difference in noise between a modern diesel drive train and one from the 1990s.

    In addition, the participating companies present current models of diesel cars complying with the environmental standards in all 50 US states. On average, their fuel efficiency is 18% higher than corresponding models with gasoline engines.

    The campaign participants aim to present the diesel alternative to interested US consumers in as much detail as possible, so the website also provides background information on research and development, and on the overall environmental framework in the USA.

    The companies participating in the campaign, which other manufacturers and suppliers may join, will apply the campaign logo as a seal of quality on the US market in advertisements, on banners, in TV spots, product brochures and their showrooms. The campaign will appear at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS), in Detroit in January 2013.

    © 2004-2011 Green Car Congress


    ****** END QUOTE******


    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012...-20121212.html
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 12-13-2012 at 10:34 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

  14. #13
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,394
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    Leprechaun,

    It occurred to me that you may find it of interest to look at US diesel offerings 1984 to present on EPA's POWER SEARCH using Vehicle Type = "diesel" to see the vehicles' fuel economy ratings. There were about 990 offerings over that period.

    And see for US USER MPG Experience Average Estimates for specific makes and models over time (a rough indicator of technology evolution and environmental regulation impacts).

    You will observe that typically USER MPG Experience Average Estimates for US gasoline offerings are 10% to 15% below their EPA ratings.

    Meanhile, fuel frugal diesel USER MPG Experience Average Estimates are typically about 22% above their EPA mpg(US) combined ratings. My guess for USER MPG Estimates in mpg(US) is about 70% of NEDC mpg(Imperial) combined, ie, 70 mpg(Imp) combined NEDC would provide ROUGHLY a 49 mpg(US) USER MPG Experience Average Estimate.

    Here is the US light passenger diesel market Dec 2010 for comparison.

    Hope this helps a little.

    And for our friends in the US that are curious ... http://www.clearlybetterdiesel.org/ EDIT; After viewing, I believe this site is "under construction".
    Last edited by 44 mpg by 2010; 12-13-2012 at 11:33 PM.
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

  15. #14
    R2-D2 Astromech Droid Premium Member Neanderthal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    East of the west.
    Posts
    24,358
    Thanks
    850
    Thanked 810 Times in 522 Posts
    My Ride
    15Soul+ Yellow; 01 PT LTD

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    I think it's all going to be in the marketing. If someone can create a good campaign, you can open eyes. The only maker I see who regularly produces excellent (IMO) ads is KIA.
    If the Clean Diesel Coalition can create a great and consistent ad campaign, half the battle is won.

    Some VW ads are pretty good. They did a great job with the original Beetle. That was in some ways a similar hill to climb, because the bugs were nothing like a car Americans were used to driving. Diesels are not as different from the mainstream gasser of today as the Bug was from an Impala or Galaxie.

    I owned a 1999 Golf TDi automatic. That was stone age in comparison to 2012 diesels. For example, the 1.9 put out 149 lb.ft. of torque, the 2012 2.0 VW diesel puts out about that in HP, and torque is something like 236. My '99 had 99HP IIRC.

    Despite being a slug in timed acceleration, it had instant torque and that created a perception of much better zip. And of course range. I love range. WTF am I doing with a 300-mile range Soul? I don't know. They DO make a diesel for Korea, Asia, and Europe.

    My Golf would run 600 miles on a good tank, on the road. I liked that.

    One neglected safety factor is that diesel doesn't light off nearly so easily as gasoline does. The flaming roll-overs I'm so fond of watching on World's Dumbest Criminal Drivers would be quite rare if 90% of today's cars were running diesel.

    15Soul+ 13Charger8A 13Soul 11 200V6 07GPGXP 07Spectra 95LHS 04Imp 03Accord 02Regal 02AccordV6 01Accord 99GolfTDi 98Concorde 97Concorde 97HXCivic5m 96Concorde 95Intrepid 94Protege5m 92SHO5m 93Protege5m 92P50Taurus 91Camry5m

    “Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
    ― Thomas Jefferson



  16. #15
    6.2 Liter LS3 V8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,394
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Re: Diesel engines are catching up

    The current US diesel market is controlled by VW ... with roughly a 75% market share.

    That could easily change ... IF ... any of the following FUEL FRUGAL diesel variations were available to the US consumer:

    EU-US Model OPPORTUNITIES - 4Q12

    BMW - Series 1, x1, 3, 5
    Hyundai - i30 & i40 Estates (i30 ≈ Cruze)
    Kia - cee'd; pro_cee'd; Venga; Picanto; Rio
    Mazda - Mazda2; Mazda3; CX5; Mazda 6

    Mercedes - A, B, C,& E Class
    Nissan - Note; Qashqai; Zafira
    Mini - Mini Countryman
    Toyota - Yaris; Avensis
    Volvo-Geely - C30,; S40; V40;V50; V60; S60; V70; S80


    And the Det3 EU offerings
    Chevy – Cruze; Aveo
    Chrysler-Jeep: Delta
    Fiat - Bravo; Punto; Panda; Qubo: Fiorino; 500
    Ford - Mondeo (Fusion); B Max; C-Max; Focus; Fiesta
    Vauxhall/GM - Meriva 5 door MPV; Insignia; Corsa; Astra
    It is important what WE use as our "moral compass" and ...
    the "measuring stick" chosen for judging progress/success as well.


    44 mpg by 2010 ... 2013?

  17. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2