Diesel engines are catching up

[The Leprechaun]

I know a lot of people scoff at Diesel-powered cars - indeed I was one of them until recently - but they have come along so far in the last decade or so that they are forcing people to sit up and take notice. Even the most devout petrol-head can't deny that the diesel engine has become remarkably refined and capable in recent times. For the first time in automotive history, diesel cars are out-selling their gasoline equivalents in certain parts of the World.

The question is, will they ever catch on in America? I'd love to hear some opinions on diesel cars from Americans (and Canadians & Australians too).
Do you think there's a market for them in the USA? Do they sell any at the moment? Or do you regard having anything other than a gas-powered motor under the hood as sacrilege?

All opinions greatly appreciated.

(P.S. Just a video of a diesel 5-Series from the UK show "Top Gear" below.)

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

I think US perception of diesel is misunderstood

Basically anywhere diesel option is offered, diesel dominates in US market

Heavy-duty trucks = 100 % diesel

Heavy-duty pickup trucks, diesel is an expensive option, 75% diesel

VW Jetta, Mercedes models, random Jeeps of 5 years ago, diesel very popular and hold resale value much better.

It really seems that demand for diesel is much larger than the offer at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any model line where diesel is available, that diesel is not popular.

[The Leprechaun]

VW Jetta, Mercedes models, random Jeeps of 5 years ago, diesel very popular and hold resale value much better.
there doesn't seem to be any model line where diesel is available, that diesel is not popular.

REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?

I think the diesel picture is essentially the same. There might be more diesel interest here, but the offering is the same. Not sure why cold weather would like diesel, old diesel are very hard to start when cold and if the battery is not so good, you go nowhere (but new diesel is just twist the key, amazing)

The only cars with diesel option is basically VW Golf/Jetta/Passat (big American-made Passat) and the Mercedes E class, but they sell a lot.

Mercedes' diesel SUV's (ML, GL, R etc) are very popular here in Montreal. I would say they outnumber the gas models.

In a nutshell, diesel is not popular overall, but anywhere a diesel can be had, it costs a lot of money to buy (new or used) and people are lining up the block for them. The difference gets silly on old cars, something like a 2000 Jetta is worth $500 or $1000 if it is the regular gasoline model, but maybe $2500 if it is a diesel in same condition.

[Cobaltss_King]

I'm loving my Passat TDI mated to a manual mainly because of the range I'm able to get on a tank. If GM can offer that I would buy. The passat is my first diesel car and I don't see myself not having one in my driveway.

[The Leprechaun]

The only cars with diesel option is basically VW Golf/Jetta/Passat (big American-made Passat) and the Mercedes E class, but they sell a lot.

anywhere a diesel can be had, it costs a lot of money to buy (new or used) and people are lining up the block for them.

Wow, I guess with gas prices going up people are looking toward other options. I presume diesel is cheaper than petrol over there?

I'm loving my Passat TDI mated to a manual mainly because of the range I'm able to get on a tank. If GM can offer that I would buy. The passat is my first diesel car and I don't see myself not having one in my driveway.

If they're buyin' 'em in Texas then they've made inroads!!

Indeed the Passat TDI is a good car mate. I like what they did to the American Passat to make it more suitable to that market. Its chunkier and a bit more buff looking than the Euro model and has a longer wheel-base. I think its more than a match for the Camry.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

Wow, I guess with gas prices going up people are looking toward other options. I presume diesel is cheaper than petrol over there?

Not really, diesel is almost always more expensive, and diesel was always this kind of popular. It is just few models available, but they make a large proportion of the sales.

Maybe the peak was in 80/81 with many models (example around early 1980's all Mercedes sold in the US were diesel, except the 380SL and 500SEC and the like) and many sales but then it declined to something like this.

[44 mpg by 2010]

my benchmark NC, USA station ... this week
* E10 is $3.199/gallon(US) (including 55.9¢ Federal and state taxes) or $2.640 before taxes
* Diesel is $3.859/gallon(US) (including 61.9¢ Federal and state taxes) or $3.240 before taxes


Diesels (VW) seem to have a USD $1.5k+ premium added to their pricing since 2009.

US diesel sales are 0.93% of market for November 2012 with roughly 114k YTD.

You will see that the selection is very limited. And, I believe this is what is holding back acceptance in the US.

[Wolfman01]

REALLY? So they're selling over there? I had the idea that there was practically zero even offered in the USA and that even the very notion of diesel cars wouldn't be given the time of day.

So there's some compact Sedans and Mercs sold in diesel format? Interesting.

What about up in Canada where you are Saabr? Perhaps the cold climate up there would make a diesel more appealing?

I've owned a few diesel vehicles over the years - a Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins, A VW Rabbit turbodiesel that blew up in three days, A Nissan 720 Truck that used as much oil as diesel fuel, and several Mercedes 4 and 5 cylinder diesel cars. The EPA did try to effecitvely ban diesels in the U.S. without actually banning them with the current emissions rules in place. What they did not count on was the recent Euro specs for emissions, as well as mandating 15ppm diesel fuel that allowed those Euro diesels to function here. The U.S. diesel market exists despite a rocky past, and recent rediculous emissions legislation.

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

I've owned a few diesel vehicles over the years - a Dodge Ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins, A VW Rabbit turbodiesel that blew up in three days, A Nissan 720 Truck that used as much oil as diesel fuel, and several Mercedes 4 and 5 cylinder diesel cars. The EPA did try to effecitvely ban diesels in the U.S. without actually banning them with the current emissions rules in place. What they did not count on was the recent Euro specs for emissions, as well as mandating 15ppm diesel fuel that allowed those Euro diesels to function here. The U.S. diesel market exists despite a rocky past, and recent rediculous emissions legislation.

In other words, ridiculous emissions regulations that was quickly one-upped by the Belgian assimilators (Euro V) and thus became the same

[bowtie8_3]

We love our Duramax Silverado, just too bad that diesel fuel here is now atleast .70 cents per gallon higher than regular gas. That difference pretty much eats up any savings from the better mpg vs a gas truck.

[AMERICA 123]

Here is what a 'few people' think -



****** QUOTE******





German automotive companies launch “clean-diesel” marketing campaign in US

12 December 2012

Six German automotive companies—passenger car manufacturers Audi, BMW, Daimler, Porsche and Volkswagen, and the supplier Bosch—launched their first joint campaign for diesels in the US. Under the slogan “Clean Diesel. Clearly Better.” they will argue for the advantages of modern diesel passenger car technology over gasoline engines in terms of cleanliness, consumption and performance.

The new vehicle market share of light-duty diesels in the US is quite low (2.6%) compared with a diesel share of 55% in Western Europe. However, sales of diesel passenger cars by German manufacturers—representing 100% of the market in diesel passenger cars in the US—have more than doubled over the last three years. In the first nine months of the current year, around 69,600 diesel cars were sold in the USA, compared to 30,600 for the same period in 2009.

Diesel vehicles have also shown strong gains among total light vehicles (passenger cars and light trucks). Up to September 2012, 284,400 light vehicles with diesel engines were sold, compared with only 160,000 units in the year 2009. The German manufacturers pushed up their market share of the diesel light vehicle segment from 25% to 37%. Their sales multiplied by two and a half (from 40,000 units to over 104,000).

The campaign, which has been developed jointly by the German Association of the Automotive Industry (VDA) and VDA member companies, comprises a website and flanking offline activities on the US market by the companies involved. Their common goal is to create a multi-brand information platform for clean diesels among the US population.

Using brief examples from everyday motoring in the US, the website explains the dynamics of the diesel drivetrain and its advantages in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions, low noise emissions and refueling costs and also addresses outdated concerns regarding diesel cars. For example, website users can not only easily calculate the consumption advantage of a diesel vehicle, but can also hear the difference in noise between a modern diesel drive train and one from the 1990s.

In addition, the participating companies present current models of diesel cars complying with the environmental standards in all 50 US states. On average, their fuel efficiency is 18% higher than corresponding models with gasoline engines.

The campaign participants aim to present the diesel alternative to interested US consumers in as much detail as possible, so the website also provides background information on research and development, and on the overall environmental framework in the USA.

The companies participating in the campaign, which other manufacturers and suppliers may join, will apply the campaign logo as a seal of quality on the US market in advertisements, on banners, in TV spots, product brochures and their showrooms. The campaign will appear at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS), in Detroit in January 2013.

© 2004-2011 Green Car Congress


****** END QUOTE******


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012...-20121212.html

[44 mpg by 2010]

Leprechaun,

It occurred to me that you may find it of interest to look at US diesel offerings 1984 to present on EPA's POWER SEARCH using Vehicle Type = "diesel" to see the vehicles' fuel economy ratings. There were about 990 offerings over that period.

And see for US USER MPG Experience Average Estimates for specific makes and models over time (a rough indicator of technology evolution and environmental regulation impacts).

You will observe that typically USER MPG Experience Average Estimates for US gasoline offerings are 10% to 15% below their EPA ratings.

Meanhile, fuel frugal diesel USER MPG Experience Average Estimates are typically about 22% above their EPA mpg(US) combined ratings. My guess for USER MPG Estimates in mpg(US) is about 70% of NEDC mpg(Imperial) combined, ie, 70 mpg(Imp) combined NEDC would provide ROUGHLY a 49 mpg(US) USER MPG Experience Average Estimate.

Here is the US light passenger diesel market Dec 2010 for comparison.

Hope this helps a little.

And for our friends in the US that are curious ... http://www.clearlybetterdiesel.org/ EDIT; After viewing, I believe this site is "under construction".

[Neanderthal]

I think it's all going to be in the marketing. If someone can create a good campaign, you can open eyes. The only maker I see who regularly produces excellent (IMO) ads is KIA.
If the Clean Diesel Coalition can create a great and consistent ad campaign, half the battle is won.

Some VW ads are pretty good. They did a great job with the original Beetle. That was in some ways a similar hill to climb, because the bugs were nothing like a car Americans were used to driving. Diesels are not as different from the mainstream gasser of today as the Bug was from an Impala or Galaxie.

I owned a 1999 Golf TDi automatic. That was stone age in comparison to 2012 diesels. For example, the 1.9 put out 149 lb.ft. of torque, the 2012 2.0 VW diesel puts out about that in HP, and torque is something like 236. My '99 had 99HP IIRC.

Despite being a slug in timed acceleration, it had instant torque and that created a perception of much better zip. And of course range. I love range. WTF am I doing with a 300-mile range Soul? I don't know. They DO make a diesel for Korea, Asia, and Europe.

My Golf would run 600 miles on a good tank, on the road. I liked that.

One neglected safety factor is that diesel doesn't light off nearly so easily as gasoline does. The flaming roll-overs I'm so fond of watching on World's Dumbest Criminal Drivers would be quite rare if 90% of today's cars were running diesel.

[44 mpg by 2010]

The current US diesel market is controlled by VW ... with roughly a 75% market share.

That could easily change ... IF ... any of the following FUEL FRUGAL diesel variations were available to the US consumer:

EU-US Model OPPORTUNITIES - 4Q12

BMW - Series 1, x1, 3, 5
Hyundai - i30 & i40 Estates (i30 ≈ Cruze)
Kia - cee'd; pro_cee'd; Venga; Picanto; Rio
Mazda - Mazda2; Mazda3; CX5; Mazda 6
Mercedes - A, B, C,& E Class
Nissan - Note; Qashqai; Zafira
Mini - Mini Countryman
Toyota - Yaris; Avensis
Volvo-Geely - C30,; S40; V40;V50; V60; S60; V70; S80


And the Det3 EU offerings
Chevy – Cruze; Aveo
Chrysler-Jeep: Delta
Fiat - Bravo; Punto; Panda; Qubo: Fiorino; 500
Ford - Mondeo (Fusion); B Max; C-Max; Focus; Fiesta
Vauxhall/GM - Meriva 5 door MPV; Insignia; Corsa; Astra