Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

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Thread: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

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    Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    First and foremost I'm no writer. I put this together from random thoughts and it is simple, and limited to essentially the Epsilon vehicles with a little Alpha and Omega thrown in, but could be expanded to include all of GM concerning it's divisions

    Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry


    Many people lambast Chevy for the Malibu and SS sharing some many design cues, but I maintain that both cars are variably handsome, and in the SS’s case, Chevy/Holden’s take on what a mature mainstream sedan should look like, not succumbing to the body-cladding of past Pontiacs, or racing stripes and trick painted surfaces of the Dodge brand, but presenting to the American buyer a look of maturity, handsome and sleeperish that pushes what is normally reserved for a BMW; Performance from such a toned down look. Yes I’m calling the Chevy SS, the real American BMW 5series. Nope, I didn’t forget about the magnificent CTS. That car is, IMO, a whole nother level. It easily usurps the BMW 5series as the performance king in Luxury sedans, and does it with more splendor than the E-Class.

    For Chevy, Buick and Cadillac cars, I think the true difference in the first two, leading up to the latter, should be about Styling, engines, and a pure adhesion to the a spectra that sets them each apart. GM has a conundrum on its hand every time it designs and releases a new vehicle from either division. That is how do you dumb down the Chevy to make the Buick or Cadillac seem more grandiose when even the cheapest iteration is literally on par with what other brands, such as BMW or Audi are putting out as premium. The Denali or even Tahoe LTZ, not Escalade, vs Range Rover is a great example, but I am going stick to cars.

    An objective person, looking at the performance credentials of the Chevy SS, the interior refinement of the SS, the NVH of the SS versus a BMW 5series, would actually come away from a blind folded ride possibly thinking the SS is the more expensive and better engineered vehicle of the two. Who am I kidding, they might actually do the same in a blind-folded ride of a CTS. The SS is really that good. So is the Impala versus an Benz E350. As is the Regal vs a Lexus IS250 or ES350 (sorry haters). It does remind me of Hyundai a bit, with their Genesis and Equus. While they are certainly down on some areas of fit and finish versus an S-Class (vs Equus) for the scaled difference in asking price, the worth of S-Class seriously comes into question.

    The challenge is differentiation at GM. I think it should be simplified. We know that Reuss wants GM platforms to dwindle in the next two years. The continuation of Zeta is ambiguous with the Alpha platform able to stretch to Commodore size, and Omega just around the corner, which should have been engineered to have a wheel base 125inchs to 151, just in case a Pullman competitor is in the works. Taken further though, the Omega should be able to start when the Alpha ends. Currently the CTS, being 114.60 inches is the longest available WB from Alpha. Can that be stretched to go to 118? Can the Omega be shrunk to 119?

    Back to the differentiation. How about just sticking to drive-trains and a meeting of “ends?”

    I believe that GM could take it’s current models and have a very in tune line-up without actually stepping on each division’s toes just by focusing on drive-trains, styling, and of course appropriate per dollar interior/exterior materials and such. While each division doesn’t necessarily need to have a version of each other’s vehicles, it does stand to reason that each division should be able to cover a rising hierarchy within a size category. Ford instance, the Regal vs the Malibu vs the CTS. All are considered Mid-Sizers. For the sake of argument I’d like to use a stair-step approach concerning Cadillac where as the ATS is the equivalent of the Regal. I propose that the Regal would move to Alpha. The Epsilon Platform remaining at Chevy for the Malibu and Buick for the Lacrosse, both being of similar size. This would mean more to the Malibu than the Lacrosse. The Malibu would go back to it’s 112 Wheel Base, but could still stay at 192 and the Lacrosse remains at 197 in exterior length. The Super-Epsilon goes to the Impala, Park Ave, and XTS covering all three brands.


    Here’s what spawned all of this nerd speak. Why is it that GM feels the need to completely hoard a given tech for a particular division, while another suffers?

    The ATS vs Regal situation even now, with Regal on Epsilon, GM could certainly put a V6 under the hood and give the car a little more power. I would take them both further, with very little investment as the technologies are existing already at GM, offering:


    ATS: 2.0L 270HP, 3.6L 320HP, TT3.6L 380HP, and 6.2L 460HP

    Regal: 2.5L 200hp, 2.0Lturbo 260hp, 3.6L 305HP (GS), TT3.6L 370HP (w AWD GNX)


    Impala vs Lacrosse vs XTS

    I’d keep these as they are now, but certainly ask why no AWD available in the Impala? How about making the TT3.6L available in all divisions but simply detune it based on the brand?


    AWD Impala SS 3.6LTT 370HP
    AWD Park Ave Super 3.6LTT 390HP
    AWD XTS-VSport 3.6LTT 410HP




    I believe that Omega should be the one limited platform at GM. I think that it should not be carried over to any other division and should be the basis of at least 4 Cadillac models such as the Sedan, a grand Coupe, a Crossover, and a possible large sports car. That being said, I do think that the Corvette Y-Body needs to be sent over to Cadillac for an immediate XLR redo. Alpha should be distributed for a replacement for the Saturn and Solstice, with one going to Buick as a 2+2 Sport Riviera and the other going to Cadillac as a viable Z4 competitor. Yes I’m suggesting that Cadillac would have 3 Sports cars, with one of them, based off Omega, being a Supercar.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    The new 5 Series is a snooze fest. I say that as someone who currently owns 2 BMW's. They are not the definitive standard in their respective classes anymore. I think you're giving the Impala a little too much credit, personally. It's a good car, but it's not a standout in it's segment, let alone against the established midsize luxury players. It's a bit on the pricey side. The driving dynamics aren't as crisp and athletic as they can be. Solid car, overall, however.

    I'm not sure there's enough room in the marketplace to simply separate different branded cars under the GM umbrella by states of engine tune. There needs to be big differences. For example, with the Alpha cars, it would have been nice to see them use FI V6's with one brand, and V8's with the other. I personally think the ATS-V should use the new LT1. Leave the TT V6 to a proper Regal GS or GNX, with AWD.

    They need to take the XTS away from Cadillac. It's hurting their image, and there's too much overlap with other Cadillac cars. Make a hotter Impala with ~375hp like you said, and give the 400hp version to Buick. Cadillac needs a legit, big, rwd premium sedan as their range topper. They need the Ciel. Badly.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    I think many on GMI could come up with a similar lineup and scenario, but in the end, the question is what GM WILL DO.
    Anyone have real insights into GMs plans?

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    The new 5 Series is a snooze fest. I say that as someone who currently owns 2 BMW's. They are not the definitive standard in their respective classes anymore. I think you're giving the Impala a little too much credit, personally. It's a good car, but it's not a standout in it's segment, let alone against the established midsize luxury players. It's a bit on the pricey side. The driving dynamics aren't as crisp and athletic as they can be. Solid car, overall, however.
    I might be missing something but the Impala is currently rated as top dog in its class. Only when you bring a V8 powered LX in does it lose a nod.




    I'm not sure there's enough room in the marketplace to simply separate different branded cars under the GM umbrella by states of engine tune. There needs to be big differences. For example, with the Alpha cars, it would have been nice to see them use FI V6's with one brand, and V8's with the other. I personally think the ATS-V should use the new LT1. Leave the TT V6 to a proper Regal GS or GNX, with AWD.
    OK, I can agree partially. I think that there is overlap between the TTV6 and the LT1 that simply doesn't have to be. I'd run the TTv6 all the way from 360HP to 450HP, then default to the LT1 in everything I need above that. That engine is known to be under-rated. Meaning it it certainly pumping out more than 460HP.





    They need to take the XTS away from Cadillac. It's hurting their image, and there's too much overlap with other Cadillac cars. Make a hotter Impala with ~375hp like you said, and give the 400hp version to Buick. Cadillac needs a legit, big, rwd premium sedan as their range topper. They need the Ciel. Badly.
    That's coming. Omega is it.

    As for the XTS hurting the brand image, no offense but that is not true. Only in the hearts and minds of Enthusiasts does that even get said. Mostly because it is FWD based, but despite the fact that it will lay down a Lexus LS460F, which is RWD. The XTS needs to stay exactly where it is, specifically because the Black Car industry requires a nice cruiser than isn't coming in above $75K. The rate of Cadillac pricing at this point, the XTS is the bridge between the CTS and the LTS(Omega) I will say again that the Park Ave needs to be revised, but it would be a Buick version of the XTS. A "Lasalle" if you will.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by LovelyMoon View Post
    GM has a conundrum on its hand every time it designs and releases a new vehicle from either division. That is how do you dumb down the Chevy to make the Buick or Cadillac seem more grandiose when even the cheapest iteration is literally on par with what other brands, such as BMW or Audi are putting out as premium.


    That's wrong.
    It's not a matter of "dumbing down a car." If GM ends up doing that, then GM leaves itself vulnerable to lower priced, higher featured cars from Korea.

    EVERY SINGLE GM BRAND must stand on its own!!

    The true differentiator is the BRAND itself.
    What does Chevrolet stand for? What does Buick stand for? What does GMC stand for? What does Cadillac stand for?

    Why would someone buy a $55,000 Cadillac CTS with a V6, 321 HP, and smaller interior ? When obviously one can buy a Chevy SS for $45,000 with V8 power, 0-60 in 5 seconds in a full sized package?
    You don't want to dumb down a product.

    For decades, GM built cars that competed with each other, when they could easily have filled in the proper niches, if they were just marketed and designed properly.
    The Chevy/Buick/Cadillac lineup has the ability to exist in multiple price tiers simultaneously, EACH car complementing each other and attracting different classes and types of buyer.

    So what if an Impala will overlap with a Lacrosse? So what if an SS can outperform and is larger than a CTS?
    It doesn't matter and SHOULD NOT matter, assuming GM gets its branding straight.

    So, when the time comes, and Cadillac launches a $30,000 FWD sedan, people will WANT to buy that Cadillac and choose it over a fully loaded and larger Malibu simply because it is a Cadillac.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro View Post
    That's wrong.
    It's not a matter of "dumbing down a car." If GM ends up doing that, then GM leaves itself vulnerable to lower priced, higher featured cars from Korea.

    EVERY SINGLE GM BRAND must stand on its own!!

    The true differentiator is the BRAND itself.
    What does Chevrolet stand for? What does Buick stand for? What does GMC stand for? What does Cadillac stand for?

    Why would someone buy a $55,000 Cadillac CTS with a V6, 321 HP, and smaller interior ? When obviously one can buy a Chevy SS for $45,000 with V8 power, 0-60 in 5 seconds in a full sized package?
    You don't want to dumb down a product.


    For decades, GM built cars that competed with each other, when they could easily have filled in the proper niches, if they were just marketed and designed properly.
    The Chevy/Buick/Cadillac lineup has the ability to exist in multiple price tiers simultaneously, EACH car complementing each other and attracting different classes and types of buyer.

    So what if an Impala will overlap with a Lacrosse? So what if an SS can outperform and is larger than a CTS?
    It doesn't matter and SHOULD NOT matter, assuming GM gets its branding straight.

    So, when the time comes, and Cadillac launches a $30,000 FWD sedan, people will WANT to buy that Cadillac and choose it over a fully loaded and larger Malibu simply because it is a Cadillac.
    to the bolded part: Uuuum That's exactly what I said right before the part you quoted

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by LovelyMoon View Post
    to the bolded part: Uuuum That's exactly what I said right before the part you quoted

    You said:

    For Chevy, Buick and Cadillac cars, I think the true difference in the first two, leading up to the latter, should be about Styling, engines, and a pure adhesion to the a spectra that sets them each apart
    It's not only about styling. It's not only about engines. Or anything else. It's about a conglomeration of various things. It's what does the brand stand for to the customer. It's beyond product differentiation.

    It's how VW/Skoda/SEAT can exist in the same market with the same cars and have little overlap in the process.


    Buick has done an excellent job in creating a design language. But we're still not sure what the brand really stands for. Previously, it stood for the "Professional Man's" car. Doesn't stand for that today.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by LovelyMoon View Post
    I might be missing something but the Impala is currently rated as top dog in its class. Only when you bring a V8 powered LX in does it lose a nod.






    OK, I can agree partially. I think that there is overlap between the TTV6 and the LT1 that simply doesn't have to be. I'd run the TTv6 all the way from 360HP to 450HP, then default to the LT1 in everything I need above that. That engine is known to be under-rated. Meaning it it certainly pumping out more than 460HP.







    That's coming. Omega is it.

    As for the XTS hurting the brand image, no offense but that is not true. Only in the hearts and minds of Enthusiasts does that even get said. Mostly because it is FWD based, but despite the fact that it will lay down a Lexus LS460F, which is RWD. The XTS needs to stay exactly where it is, specifically because the Black Car industry requires a nice cruiser than isn't coming in above $75K. The rate of Cadillac pricing at this point, the XTS is the bridge between the CTS and the LTS(Omega) I will say again that the Park Ave needs to be revised, but it would be a Buick version of the XTS. A "Lasalle" if you will.
    I am not under the impression that the Impala is unanimously agreed upon as being best in class. It has lost at least one comparo to the Avalon. I believe the Cadenza won another. The Impala, Avalon, Cadenza, and Azera are really all on an equal footing. None of the cars are significantly better than another in any meaningful way. I test drove a V6 Impala LTZ immediately after hopping out of an Avalon Limited, and the Avalon was clearly the more fun, sharper, and athletic car. The trade off was the Impala's better ride and more snazzy styling.

    Anywho, the engines need to be selected based on the purpose. Cadillac's rip-snorting performance cars need a good 'ole V8 and manual. Buick's hi-po offeriings could use the TT V6, a dual-clutch or GOOD auto, and AWD for all-weather ability.

    And I wholeheartedly disagree on the XTS. It serves absolutely no purpose within Cadillac. The fact that it outperforms an LS is irrelevant. With it's power advantage and AWD, I'd hope it does. But it's irrelevant. All they need above the CTS is the upcoming LTS/Ciel/whatever. Having an extra car placed laterally in the model lineup is redundant. Especially when it's FWD and is priced in line with the CTS. Enthusiasts are exactly who Cadillac is trying to and needing to appeal right now.
    Last edited by Edge; 03-26-2014 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    I cringe when I read posts lumping the brands together. The only two brands that need to respect each other are Buick and GMC, because they share dealerships most of the time. The only reason we have a badass Z/28 is because GM allowed the Corvette mafia to back off. Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac cannot be worried about stepping on each others' toes. Enough of this business where Chevy can't have real aluminum trim, because that's reserved for GMC.
    Last edited by All Star; 03-26-2014 at 05:05 PM.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by mgescuro View Post
    You said:



    It's not only about styling. It's not only about engines. Or anything else. It's about a conglomeration of various things. It's what does the brand stand for to the customer. It's beyond product differentiation.

    It's how VW/Skoda/SEAT can exist in the same market with the same cars and have little overlap in the process.


    Buick has done an excellent job in creating a design language. But we're still not sure what the brand really stands for. Previously, it stood for the "Professional Man's" car. Doesn't stand for that today.
    For better or worse, I think Buick stands for "This is our competitor to Acura, Lincoln, and low level Lexus products." these days.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Cadillac needs to cater and appeal to luxury customers first, "enthusiasts" second. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trying so hard to repair their image right now.

    An argument similar to this was in another thread.

    For example, ATS is a luxury sedan first, sports sedan second. Cadillac would just build sedan versions of the FR-S if they went after enthusiasts. They can build fun to drive cars, but they need to remember they're a luxury brand by default. Sporting intentions can be mixed in as well.
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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by LovelyMoon View Post
    to the bolded part: Uuuum That's exactly what I said right before the part you quoted
    Maybe, but it is more authoritative Coming from the luxury expert living in the influencing left coastal area

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    I am not under the impression that the Impala is unanimously agreed upon as being best in class. It has lost at least one comparo to the Avalon. I believe the Cadenza won another. The Impala, Avalon, Cadenza, and Azera are really all on an equal footing. None of the cars are significantly better than another in any meaningful way. I test drove a V6 Impala LTZ immediately after hopping out of an Avalon Limited, and the Avalon was clearly the more fun, sharper, and athletic car. The trade off was the Impala's better ride and more snazzy styling.
    More fun? I guess we are all entitled but I would say that they are pretty damn equal in that regard, with the Chevy certainly leading the pack in design and cool. To me, adding even what you said about it having a better ride, along with equal "fun to drive (which is what even MT said) I chose, and purchased the LTZ.

    BTW, unanimous does not make a leader. The Accord is not always top dog with every category or test, but it is generally though of as the mid-size leader.

    Anywho, the engines need to be selected based on the purpose. Cadillac's rip-snorting performance cars need a good 'ole V8 and manual. Buick's hi-po offeriings could use the TT V6, a dual-clutch or GOOD auto, and AWD for all-weather ability.
    I am lost on why people believe that Cadillac should be all out performance oriented. A Manual in a Cadillac is disgusting, IMO, I wouldn't want one, and I know plenty of Luxury buyers who feel the same. Buick's Hi-Po offering could use the TTV6 I agree, but Cadillac smaller and mid-Level performers could use it as well. The Hi-Po Vseries should get V8s


    And I wholeheartedly disagree on the XTS. It serves absolutely no purpose within Cadillac. The fact that it outperforms an LS is irrelevant. With it's power advantage and AWD, I'd hope it does. But it's irrelevant. All they need above the CTS is the upcoming LTS/Ciel/whatever. Having an extra car placed laterally in the model lineup is redundant. Especially when it's FWD and is priced in line with the CTS. Enthusiasts are exactly who Cadillac is trying to and needing to appeal right now.

    We will have to disagree on this one. It is serving a nice purpose right now, and less people forget, a completely profitable vehicle or vehicles must remain in Cadillac's line-up in order to afford the niche products at least for another two generations. XTS, SRX, and Escalade print money

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy4Life View Post
    Cadillac needs to cater and appeal to luxury customers first, "enthusiasts" second.
    Disagree...they are not going to contend, unless they can do both at the same time.

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    Re: Chevy vs Buick vs Cadillac vs the Industry

    Speaking specifically to the SS vs. Malibu looks part I actually find the Malibu to be a very attractive car, not exciting, but not vanilla. The SS on the other hand doesn't work for me at all. Dynamically my opinion is the opposite, SS all the way... obviously.

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