the case for a 4-door muscle-car.

[Stéphane Dumas]

I spotted this article from December 2011
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/feature...or-muscle-car/

[Neanderthal]

I must be missing something. EVERY medium-sized (i.e. Camry, Accord, 200, etc.) V6 sedan is a screamer that will put away almost any old-hat "muscle car."

Is this about wanting to have a nice term to use? Because the muscle is certainly out there, in the cars.

Not wanting to rain on a parade. I rekkin I just don't fully agree with Kevin's musings about the Good Ole Daze.

[WoodieLongRoof]

Some 4-dr GM gems not mentioned:

1) The original Olds 4-4-2, circa '64

2) The original '73-'75 Pontiac Grand Am 4-dr, and Olds Cutlass International version that followed, both available with their respective 455s.

[Quixote88]

I must be missing something. EVERY medium-sized (i.e. Camry, Accord, 200, etc.) V6 sedan is a screamer that will put away almost any old-hat "muscle car."

Is this about wanting to have a nice term to use? Because the muscle is certainly out there, in the cars.

Not wanting to rain on a parade. I rekkin I just don't fully agree with Kevin's musings about the Good Ole Daze.

Well, he did state: We want modern cars that look and feel like how we misremember them; a truly difficult task to undertake.

Sure, modern V6 Camcords would dust most classic muscle cars. And for the most part, most of the classic muscle cars were truly awful in terms of fit & finish and handling. But it was about more than speed then (though those cars truly were the fastest mainstream cars available then), and it's about more than speed now. It's about attitude. It's about the rumble of a V8. And it's about standing out from the crowd.

That's what it seems to me what Kevin Shaw was writing about. He wants that feel from a modern, quality built machine. That's what many of us want. Our choices are few, and it's a very expensive ticket of admission when you find one. I disagree with his belief that the Mustang is the best interpretation of a modern muscle machine. I think both the Camaro & Challenger are better "muscle cars" (size) than the 'stang, which I believe is still a pony car. I like that we still have Chrysler building the Charger with a V8, and we'll soon have Chevrolet's "SS," though it seems that is going to be priced far higher than the wonderful Pontiac G8 it replaces in GM's lineup.

[Stéphane Dumas]

Some 4-dr GM gems not mentioned:

1) The original Olds 4-4-2, circa '64

2) The original '73-'75 Pontiac Grand Am 4-dr, and Olds Cutlass International version that followed, both available with their respective 455s.

There was also some COPO 1969 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate wagon with the L72 427ci/425hp V8. Without the 427 turbo-jet badge, no one would suspect this car is a "muscle-wagon" http://amateurdebeauxchars.forumacti...n-wagon#155459

Another rare species, a 1966 Dodge Coronet 4-door sedan Hemi http://www.dodgecoronet.com/forum/sh...Coronet-indeed!

[The Leprechaun]

I think both the Camaro & Challenger are better "muscle cars" (size) than the 'stang, which I believe is still a pony car.

Stephane Dumas posted a thread the other week banging on about a couple of Sth African muscle cars, one of which was a Capri. He didn't get one single response and I know why. I was going to post it but I didn't bother. I wanted to see if anyone would say it first.

And the reason is simple. If a car ain't huge in size, then it would never even receive consideration Stateside. If a Mustang isn't even a muscle car, what the hell would the Capri be?!! A child's toy?!!

Its just a cultural difference.

I'm sorry Stephane but your cars and American cars may as well be from different Planets such is the disparity in sheer size.

[F14CRAZY]

So a modern 4 door muscle car is supposed to be reminiscent of the good ol days? Go to most any local car show, cruise, Friday night meet at a local bar, etc, and see how many 4 door Cutlass', Malibu's, or Chevelle's show up. Most all production of these performance variants were coupes with some convertibles, and here and there a couple 4 doors that were specially ordered with the performance hardware. And half a dozen wagons or so.

Hardly anyone will buy a coupe these days compared with back then (ok 2 door...don't want to upset the 2 door hardtop people).

Why do people still complain about the 4 door Charger? No one is keeping them from buying a Challenger

One reason I like owning a classic luxury car rather than a "muscle" car, a rather ambiguous term

[F14CRAZY]

So a modern 4 door muscle car is supposed to be reminiscent of the good ol days? Go to most any local car show, cruise, Friday night meet at a local bar, etc, and see how many 4 door Cutlass', Malibu's, or Chevelle's show up. Most all production of these performance variants were coupes with some convertibles, and here and there a couple 4 doors that were specially ordered with the performance hardware. And half a dozen wagons or so.

Hardly anyone will buy a coupe these days compared with back then (ok 2 door...don't want to upset the 2 door hardtop people).

Why do people still complain about the 4 door Charger? No one is keeping them from buying a Challenger

One reason I like owning a classic luxury car rather than a "muscle" car, a rather ambiguous term

[DenaliHD66]

V8 or die.

[Neanderthal]

Well, he did state: We want modern cars that look and feel like how we misremember them; a truly difficult task to undertake.

Sure, modern V6 Camcords would dust most classic muscle cars. And for the most part, most of the classic muscle cars were truly awful in terms of fit & finish and handling. But it was about more than speed then (though those cars truly were the fastest mainstream cars available then), and it's about more than speed now. It's about attitude. It's about the rumble of a V8. And it's about standing out from the crowd.

That's what it seems to me what Kevin Shaw was writing about. He wants that feel from a modern, quality built machine. That's what many of us want. Our choices are few, and it's a very expensive ticket of admission when you find one. I disagree with his belief that the Mustang is the best interpretation of a modern muscle machine. I think both the Camaro & Challenger are better "muscle cars" (size) than the 'stang, which I believe is still a pony car. I like that we still have Chrysler building the Charger with a V8, and we'll soon have Chevrolet's "SS," though it seems that is going to be priced far higher than the wonderful Pontiac G8 it replaces in GM's lineup.

Perhaps Kevin is taking a lot of liberty with his understanding/assumption of what "we" want in modern cars. Or perhaps he's projecting his own wish list on the group as a whole. Just guessing here.

Muscle cars to me were noisy, usually hard-riding, always 2-door jobs, and woe unto him or her who had to ride in back. Both the seating arrangements and the insert and extraction process sucked.

I HAD a modern muscle car, a 2007 GP GXP. It had the requisite V8, including subtle rumble, front seats that bothered my wife, big expensive tires, and irresponsible, lamebrained morons at the local service department. What more can one ask for?

Oh wait, IT HAS TO BE RWD! As a retired professional recommender, I suggest he go get his hemi Challenger. He won't be riding in back, so no problemo`!

[The Leprechaun]

I'm just after receiving an infraction for "insulting and name-calling" another member. Apparently I've received 10 penalty points for this.

To say I'm surprised would be an understatement. Has anyone else ever received anything like this?

[anova]

I lived through the muscle car era. In fact, I drove a built up 1962 Galaxie convertible that I purchased new from the dealership. That was back when a big Ford could compete with Cadillac on style and everything else in performance.

Let me tell you, unless you ordered the top of the line engine, or built up a car yourself, you weren't getting a true 300-400 horsepower car. You were lucky if most of those V8s mae a good 250 horsepower. All you have to do is look at the cars' weights, quarter miles and trap speeds. That tells the whole story.

Now, the full size cars could be decked out in top of the line trim with fine leather, plenty of room, and a special ordered engine. But those weren't muscle cars.

[F14CRAZY]

Those gross power ratings told a lot though I figured most of those slow 1/4 times from those supercars like Yenko Camaro's, GT500s, Hemi's, etc were more due to crappy tires, and a modern set of drag radials on the same car would shave like a second off their times

[anova]

Those gross power ratings told a lot though I figured most of those slow 1/4 times from those supercars like Yenko Camaro's, GT500s, Hemi's, etc were more due to crappy tires, and a modern set of drag radials on the same car would shave like a second off their times

A lot of people think it was the tires, but honestly, it wasn't. Slap a set of modern tires on an old muscle car and you'll see marginal, but not significant improvement in ET. The test engines used to create gross power ratings were one off deals, complete with ported and polished heads. Believe me, I was there and I knew the greats like **** Keinath. The actual castings were far more crude and if you took a stock engine from a showroom car and ripped off all of the exhaust and accessories you wouldn't get anywhere near the gross ratings.

However, thats not to say that there weren't powerful cars, there were and you had to special order the engines. But they were not regular iterations of the "muscle car".

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

They had Hyundai horsepower ratings

Reminds me of that period magazine test of a Road Runner, they noted that Chrysler had sent the car with rear end gears that made the car rev-out at 80 MPH. Sure like anyone would buy that (LOL like 4.56`s or worse even...)

So a modern 4 door muscle car is supposed to be reminiscent of the good ol days? Go to most any local car show, cruise, Friday night meet at a local bar, etc, and see how many 4 door Cutlass', Malibu's, or Chevelle's show up. Most all production of these performance variants were coupes with some convertibles, and here and there a couple 4 doors that were specially ordered with the performance hardware. And half a dozen wagons or so.

Hardly anyone will buy a coupe these days compared with back then (ok 2 door...don't want to upset the 2 door hardtop people).

Why do people still complain about the 4 door Charger? No one is keeping them from buying a Challenger

One reason I like owning a classic luxury car rather than a "muscle" car, a rather ambiguous term

It seems people buy more 4 doors and less 2 doors generally in all cases. For example my grandfather bought first car circa 1958 in free Europe and had a young child, and bought several cars later. But the first four-door was a Jetta he bought in 2000 long after kids had already gone through several cars and kids of their own Hell even my father had a coupe when we were kids...