Tahoe and Yukon Hybrids: nearly $10,000 price premium

[plane]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Plane, what's the record for "most number of times someone has proven Plane wrong, without fazing him"? I suspect we're not nearly there yet

With those words, you sealed your fate.
And by the way, referring people to your site doesn't cut it.
You started this thread here. This goes down here.

Let's begin with the basis for your as-yet futile efforts.
One question at a time.

What are 100% of the differences in standard features between the Tahoe Hybrid and the Tahoe 3LT?

[mkaresh]

Knowing that my fate has been sealed, I'm too frightened to properly respond...

So I'll just respond by saying that if I wanted to do that sort of thing by hand, I wouldn't have created my site

Do a "minimum" comparison on the site and you'll come pretty close to answering that question.

You might try lightening up a little.

[FStephenMasek]

Originally Posted by plane;1260366
[FONT=Courier New

Backup Camera:......................................-$.2000[/font]

Please, that is just silly. You can buy a standalone camera system for a few hundred dollars, and can add a camera to a navigation system for even less. I have the Pioneer backup camera as part of my Pioneer navigation and sound system.

[Tiger]

* Sits down and grabs box of popcorn!*

[plane]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Knowing that my fate has been sealed, I'm too frightened to properly respond...

So I'll just respond by saying that if I wanted to do that sort of thing by hand, I wouldn't have created my site

Do a "minimum" comparison on the site and you'll come pretty close to answering that question.

You might try lightening up a little.

So, what's stopping you from answering one cogent question?
It's a simple question.
And if the facts are in your database, it's just a matter of point and click.
Just copy and paste.
Impress everyone at GMI.

And then we can all sing kumbahyah.

[plane]

Originally Posted by FStephenMasek

Please, that is just silly. You can buy a standalone camera system for a few hundred dollars, and can add a camera to a navigation system for even less. I have the Pioneer backup camera as part of my Pioneer navigation and sound system.

Sure point taken - but we can all do the same with a tom tom for gps, or use a Sensa instead of a factory radio, or use folded paper napkins instead of sunvisors.

The relevant question is whether or not GM is in fact charging $10,000 more for the hybrid version of the Tahoe than the 3LT Tahoe. The operative comparison is solely between the Tahoe and the Tahoe Hybrid and the features that GM offers for each vehicle.

We've already had mkaresh back down from his original number, admit that his comparison fails to take into account relevant features, and other posters have indicated that he contradicted his own site.

Bottom line? If someone is going to throw that $10,000 claim out, let's start with the basis for that claim and see if it has any merit. If we can identify each difference and assign a "fair" price, then all that remains is a simple matter of addition.

Of course, I don't expect him to back up his words in this thread.
That would be too cut and paste easy.

[mkaresh]

Price Comparison (MSRP)
The sticker prices, before adjusting for remaining feature differences. Usually these are the numbers you will see on the window stickers.

Model Year 2008 2008 2008
Model Tahoe Tahoe Tahoe
Trim LT LTZ Hybrid
Body 4dr SUV 4dr SUV 4dr SUV
Base Price $36,145 $44,780 $49,450
3LT Equipment Group $3,155
4WD w/low range $2,805 $2,805 $2,945
Engine-block heater $75 $75 $75
Entertainment system, ceiling-mounted $1,295
Limited-slip rear differential $295
Sun, Entertainment, and Destinations Pkg. $3,790 $3,790
Sunroof $995
Third-row 2-section 3-person split bench $860
Total options $10,980 $6,670 $5,310
Destination $900 $900 $900
Total Price $48,025 $52,350 $55,660
Rebate -$750 -$750 $0
Net Price $47,275 $51,600 $55,660
Over MinimumThe difference between a trim and its model's lowest-priced trim. $0 $4,325 $0
Lowest Net Price Tahoe LT 4dr SUV
Difference $8,385
Top of Page ^

Invoice Comparison
Dealer cost before holdback, bonuses, advertising fees, and such. Also before adjusting for remaining feature differences.

Models that are not in demand can often be purchased at or a few hundred dollars over these prices.
Model Year 2008 2008 2008
Model Tahoe Tahoe Tahoe
Trim LT LTZ Hybrid
Body 4dr SUV 4dr SUV 4dr SUV
Base Invoice $33,073 $40,240 $45,871
3LT Equipment Group $2,619
4WD w/low range $2,566 $2,566 $2,594
Engine-block heater $62 $62 $62
Entertainment system, ceiling-mounted $1,075
Limited-slip rear differential $245
Sun, Entertainment, and Destinations Pkg. $3,146 $3,146
Sunroof $826
Third-row 2-section 3-person split bench $714
Total options $9,352 $5,774 $4,557
Destination $900 $900 $900
Total Invoice $43,325 $46,914 $51,328
Rebate -$750 -$750 $0
Net Invoice $42,575 $46,164 $51,328
Over MinimumThe difference between a trim and its model's lowest-priced trim. $0 $3,589 $0
Lowest Net Invoice Tahoe LT 4dr SUV
Difference $8,753
Top of Page ^
Feature Comparison
Adjusts for unshared features -- values in parentheses

These are features on some but not all of the displayed trim lines.

In parentheses are the values assigned to these features by TrueDelta or, optionally, by you.
Model Year 2008 2008 2008
Model Tahoe Tahoe Tahoe
Trim LT LTZ Hybrid
Body 4dr SUV 4dr SUV 4dr SUV
Engine 320hp V8 320hp V8 332hp V8 H
Transmission A4 ($800) A4 ($800) A4 ($800)
Drivetrain 4WD w/4L ($2200) 4WD w/4L ($2200) 4WD w/4L ($2200)
Tires (rear if not equal) 265/70-17 275/55-20 265/65-18
Audio (watts, speakers) 250, 9 250, 9 250, 9
Accessories
AC power outlet ($100) Not incl. Not incl. Standard
Power liftgate ($350) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Power-adjustable pedals ($125) Package Standard Not incl.
Cargo Management
Roof rails ($250) Standard Standard Not incl.
Climate Control and Infotainment
Rain-sensing wipers ($100) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Super-heated washer fluid ($100) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Exterior
Rear spoiler ($200) Not incl. Not incl. Standard
Instruments, Lights, and Mirrors
Fog lights ($200) Standard Standard Not incl.
Large energy flow and fuel economy display ($250) Not incl. Not incl. Standard
Seats and Interior Trim
Heated second row ($200) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Manual lumbar, driver first row ($50) Not incl. Not incl. Standard
Manual recline second row ($75) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Memory system, driver first row ($200) Package Standard Not incl.
Power lumbar, 4-way, driver first row ($150) Package Standard Not incl.
Power lumbar, 4-way, passenger first row ($150) Package Standard Not incl.
Power recline, driver first row ($100) Package Standard Not incl.
Power recline, passenger first row ($100) Package Standard Not incl.
Power release second row ($250) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Suspension, Wheels, and Tires
Adaptive shocks ($1000) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Alloy wheels ($350) Standard Not incl. Standard
Auto-leveling rear shocks ($200) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Chrome / polished alloy wheels ($700) Not incl. Standard Not incl.
Total Feature Adjustments The total value of the features listed for a trim, after subtracting the lowest total. -$675 -$3,300 -$0
Top of Page ^
TrueDelta Value Comparison
These are the sticker and invoice prices after adjusting for feature differences, to provide an "apples to apples" comparison.
Model Year 2008 2008 2008
Model Tahoe Tahoe Tahoe
Trim LT LTZ Hybrid
Body 4dr SUV 4dr SUV 4dr SUV
Net Price (from Price table) $47,275 $51,600 $55,660
Adjustment (from Feature table) -$675 -$3,300 -$0
Feature-adjusted Net Price $46,600 $48,300 $55,660
Over MinimumThe difference between a trim and its model's lowest-priced trim. $0 $1,700 $0
Net Invoice (from Invoice table) $42,575 $46,164 $51,328
Invoice AdjustmentThe price adjustment multiplied by the ratio between the invoice and sticker prices. -$608 -$2,952 -$0
Feature-adjusted Net Invoice $41,967 $43,212 $51,328
Over MinimumThe difference between a trim and its model's lowest-priced trim. $0 $1,245 $0
Lowest Adjusted Price and Invoice Tahoe LT 4dr SUV
TrueDelta Price Difference $9,060
TrueDelta Invoice Difference $9,361
Top of Page ^

Notes
Prices are for 2008 models unless otherwise stated. While we strive for accuracy, the site is not error-free, and prices change frequently.

The "TrueDelta Value Comparison" figures include rebates available to the general public in the Chicago area (e.g. they include bonuses from finance subsidiaries but not those for current owners or the military) and adjustments for most differences in feature content. However, they do not include advertising fees (often about $300 added to the invoice), factory-to-dealer incentives, or differences in engines, tires, seat configurations, and audio systems. Exceptions: They do include values for third-row seats ($300) and media players.

Usually the base prices, options, and packages you see here match those on the window stickers. However, in some cases these have been restructured to simplify the database and calculations. These modifictions have no impact on the "total" and "net" figures.

Writers: Please acknowledge TrueDelta.com when using these figures.

[mkaresh]

No, not impossible to read at all. I don't know why I didn't just cut and paste that to begin with rather than referring people to the properly formatted tables on my site...

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Domestic vehicles usually sell for around invoice, so I was going with the invoice difference. Which is $9,361.

The difference between the Min and Max results is mostly accounted for by the discounted price of the "Sun, Entertainment, and Destinations" package, which is available on the LT but not the Hybrid. If you want your Tahoe with a sunroof and entertainment system, Max is the more valid result. If you don't want these features, then Min is the more valid result.

I suspect most of the Hybrids will be sold with both options. Both tend to be popular on $50,000 SUVs.

The invoice gap is larger because GM's current system gives dealers a much larger margin on options than on the base price. Since the optioned up Tahoe LT has more, um, options, it has a larger dealer margin (i.e. a relatively low invoice).

Again, I think there's a problem with your invoice price on the hybrid. GMPricing.com shows that the GMS prices are $403 dollars closer between the LT and the hybrid. I see the prices you have on other websites, including ConsumerGuide.com (is this where you get your prices?), which you already admitted, makes a lot of mistakes. I wonder how many of these sites just pull their prices from other sites, propagating mistakes like this. Edmunds lists a gap between LT and hybrid base invoice prices $500 less than you have ($45375 hybrid), which is at least closer to what GM actually publishes for GMS. GMS prices go in lock-step with invoice prices. There's no reason for them to do otherwise.

Even more troubling than this is your blog. You call your site TrueDelta, and you go to great lengths to equalize equipment between models to get the most valid comparison possible. But then in your blog, what do you choose to compare the pricing of the Tahoe Hybrid (a large SUV) to? A Toyota Camry Hybrid, a mid-size sedan. All the while your own site lists the "TrueDelta Price Difference" of a Toyota Highlander Hybrid (you know, an SUV) at $4745, invoice $4495. Why on earth wouldn't you use this as your reference? Why go to the trouble of eliminating as many differences as possible in your site's pricing tool, then go with a wildly different vehicle type for the comparison in your blog?

When you go with the "Minimize Shared Features" option to get the least clouded idea of what they are charging for the hybrid, the difference is only $8060 sticker (until your invoice prices make sense to me, I'm ignoring them). That's still $3265 more than the Highlander Hybrid premium. But as you said, the Two-Mode system is definitely a more sophisticated system. I'd expect to pay more for that. The Two-Mode system in the Tahoe is simply scaled larger (Tahoe Hybrid tows 71% more than Highlander Hybrid). Even if its design was exactly the same, I'd expect to pay more for larger equipment. The Highlander Hybrid loses 61 hp and 36 lb.ft. of torque compared to the non-hybrid; the Tahoe Hybrid gains 12 hp and 27 lb.ft. of torque. I'd expect to pay more for a hybrid powertrain that gains power than for one that loses a substantial amount of power.

I don't like to say this, because in general, I like your site and what you are trying to accomplish. But I can't help but think you slanted things so that you could get a headline and blog with the maximum shock value to bring more attention to your website. Now, the $10k figure is floating around out there (how many people saw it and immediately tuned out the Tahoe Hybrid for good - 5-figures is a significant psychological step in the pricing of anything.

[mkaresh]

Good point on the Highlander. I actually meant to look it up and add it to the blog piece yesterday, but forgot to before I actually got around to doing it.

One thing to keep in mind with the Highlander Hybrid, though, is that it has sold poorly, suggesting that it is overpriced. The Camry Hybrid has done considerably better.

I'm rechecking the invoice prices on other sites. You are correct that GMS is usually in lockstep with invoice. I'm now seeing a higher MSRP (by $140) for the Tahoe Hybrid on cars.com, suggesting that the price I had earlier (still shown on Consumer Guide) was an error.

On the other hand, the same tight margin is present on the Yukon Hybrid prices, and it's hard to imagine two typos of similar magnitude on both vehicles. While Edmunds shows a lower invoice price than everyone else for the Tahoe Hybrid, they have the same invoice price as everyone else for the Yukon Hybrid.

What are you seeing for GMS on the Yukon Hybrid compared to what I have?

[tholland]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

I don't like to say this, because in general, I like your site and what you are trying to accomplish. But I can't help but think you slanted things so that you could get a headline and blog with the maximum shock value to bring more attention to your website. Now, the $10k figure is floating around out there (how many people saw it and immediately tuned out the Tahoe Hybrid for good - 5-figures is a significant psychological step in the pricing of anything.

I agree. Just keep your assesments fair and don't reach for the attention factor. I believe the engine difference is very relevant, for example. Saying it's not relevant because you don't really need it or gain much horsepower is not logical... cost is cost.

[mkaresh]

I'm not saying the engine is irrelevent, though the extra 12 horsepower certainly isn't much. I'm saying that my pricing tool doesn't adjust for engine differences. Instead, they're one of the things the individual consumer must weigh against the price difference.

What the tool does is remove all of the features with somewhat standardized prices from the equation. That's what it was designed to do, and that's what it does.

I have rechecked sites that I know rely on at least three different data suppliers. Aside from Edmunds, every site has the same invoice price I do. Also, this invoice price is consistent with the invoice price shown on every site, including Edmunds, for the Yukon Hybrid.

Invoice as a percent of MSRP:

Tahoe Hybrid: 92.5%

Yukon Hybrid: 92.5%

Conclusion: the invoice price on Edmunds for the Tahoe Hybrid is incorrect. EVERY site, including manufacturer sites, has this sort of error. When you're entering thousands of data points, they're hard to avoid.

This exercise has led to one additional discovery:

Invoice as a percent of MSRP:

Tahoe LT: 91.5%

Yukon SLT: 91.0%

The dealer margin is wider on the regular Tahoe and Yukon. So one way they've kept the MSRP down on the Hybrids is by squeezing dealer margins.

Since invoice will determine what most people pay, my previous result of $9361 stands until I learn that every auto site on the Internet except Edmunds has the invoice price wrong. The MSRP difference will be changed to $9,200.

Update: when I added the low range, I inadvertently added tow hooks to the 4WD Hybrid, since tow hooks are included with 4WD on all other Tahoes. They aren't included on the Hybrid with 4WD, though. So slightly different results of $9240 at MSRP and $9397 at invoice.

[MelvinJ]

You've got $35,548 for the Yukon, GMS is $32768 for the SLE. For the Hybrid, you've got $46292, GMS is $44940. The GMS price difference for the two versions of the Tahoe is $12395 in GMS and $12172 for the Yukon, so they are very close.

I see your base prices are for the SLT. GMS price lists only give SLE base prices; SLT1 and SLT2 are $2,310/1,848 and $4,225/3,380 respectively. Adding SLT1 onto GMS SLE gives $34,616. Your price of $1,548 for 4SB (SLT2) is pretty close to the difference between SLT1 and SLT2 of $1,532. I haven't looked at the option/equipment content for these models/packages.

[mkaresh]

Do you have GMU for the Tahoe Hybrid and Yukon Hybrid? GMU is usually very close to invoice.

[tholland]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

I'm not saying the engine is irrelevent, though the extra 12 horsepower certainly isn't much. I'm saying that my pricing tool doesn't adjust for engine differences. Instead, they're one of the things the individual consumer must weigh against the price difference.

I think your comparison tool is very useful for comparing relative features and values, but not as a cost analysis on a specific model... you are attempting to add subjective matter to the equation.