Tahoe and Yukon Hybrids: nearly $10,000 price premium

[cemaxc]

I might be able to give you all some driving impressions on the Hybrid Tahoe. It seems that my mom's 23 year old Suburban failed the emissions test and she is now looking hard for a new SUV. The Hybrid Tahoe is high on her list. Maybe by the time the new year rolls around she will have it and I will be able to give first hand driving impressions.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by SuperSS27

Yup...seems pretty apple and oranges to me. Subtract about 2k for the 6.0L motor alone, and its a little less apples and oranges.

How do you figure $2,000 for the 6.0?

This is a 332 horsepower 6.0. The 5.3 puts out 320. Who is going to pay $2,000 for twelve horsepower?

When you throw out a number like that, you're starting with a conclusion--you want the Tahoe Hybrid to look good--and then picking (or making up) your facts to try to support it.

For what it's worth, GM charges $1,095 for the 366-horsepower 6.0-liter in the Suburban LTZ.

On a pounds-per-horsepower basis, this puts the 6.0 in the Hybrid at about $285. That's making barely a dent in the $10,000 premium.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

How do you figure $2,000 for the 6.0?

This is a 332 horsepower 6.0. The 5.3 puts out 320. Who is going to pay $2,000 for twelve horsepower?

When you throw out a number like that, you're starting with a conclusion--you want the Tahoe Hybrid to look good--and then picking (or making up) your facts to try to support it.

For what it's worth, GM charges $1,095 for the 366-horsepower 6.0-liter in the Suburban LTZ.

On a pounds-per-horsepower basis, this puts the 6.0 in the Hybrid at about $285. That's making barely a dent in the $10,000 premium.

Check the cost for a 5.3 on a Silverado over the small V8. I think it is at least $1000.

[MelvinJ]

Michael, where did you see anything about the Hybrid not having a low-range transfer case? Chevy's website lists the same Autotrac transfer case for all 4X4's.

Some of the option prices you use seem a little high, like $100 extra for each power lumbar, and $200 for driver's seat memory, and $200 for fog lights. Do you have actual vehicle pricing where these things are offered ala carte?

I'm willing to leave the 5.3L vs. 6.0L out of the equation and take the hybrid powertrain as a whole. According to Car and Driver, the hybrid may be slightly faster, but it doesn't sound like a huge difference.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Check the cost for a 5.3 on a Silverado over the small V8. I think it is at least $1000.

$1050. Definitely not worth it for the extra ten horsepower. But maybe for the extra 40 foot-pounds of torque.

The reason I don't adjust for horsepower is that the cost of it varies tremendously. Back when Ford was selling the Contour, they charged $495 extra for the 170-horsepower DOHC V6 vs. the 125-horsepower four. (And still most people opted for the four.) At the other end of the scale, Porsche charges $16,900 for a 26 horsepower bump in the 911.

Because of such huge variation, engine differences are one of the things I include as part of the "basic car." I similarly don't adjust for wheel/tire size. Sometimes a larger wheel costs $100. Other times it costs thousands. (Especially if it has an "AMG" on it.)

And this is before getting into the fact that a bump in horsepower or wheel size must be understood in context. How large is the vehicle? Is the curb weight also increasing? Or--as in the pickups--maybe the bump in peak horsepower is small, but the bump in midrange power (indicated by torque) is larger. And so on.

My site should be used to figure the difference between the "basic cars." It's not "which one is cheapest after the adjustments." Because you can't adjust for everything.

Instead, I'd suggest thinking of the results this way: "The difference between these is $10,000. Are the styling, engine, handling, interior materials, and other non-commodifiable aspects of the more expensive vehicle worth the extra $10,000?" Maybe yes, maybe no. It's a personal judgment call at that point.

My point here is that I can't see the Tahoe Hybrid being worth the extra ten large for many people, even if you do get a 6.0-liter V8 in the bargain.

One factor that will be included once there is an official number: a tax credit good for about $1,800. (This is mentioned in the blog piece linked in the OP.)

[plane]

<shakes head sadly in mkaresh's direction>

You've admitted you're at least a thousand dollars off for the engine.
Now what about the assist steps that are standard on the hybrid?
What about the backup camera that is standard on the hybrid?
Neither are mentioned in your article.
Now throw in the touch-screen Nav radio.
And the third row seats.
Pop off an allowance for the heated seats,
even though in all your charity,
you only ascribed $1200 for all the different additional features listed in your article.

Hmmm.
Looks like your numbers are off:

Hybrid Price:........................................$55600
Extras Mentioned in article:........................-$.1200
Engine:.............................................-$.1049
Third-Row Seats:....................................-$..750
Assist Steps........................................-$..750
Touch Screen Nav Radio:.............................-$.2500
Backup Camera:......................................-$.2000
Heated Seat Allowance................................$..400
Tax Rebate..........................................-$.1800
Hybrid - Adjusted comparable price to consumer.$45,951

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

Michael, where did you see anything about the Hybrid not having a low-range transfer case? Chevy's website lists the same Autotrac transfer case for all 4X4's.

Some of the option prices you use seem a little high, like $100 extra for each power lumbar, and $200 for driver's seat memory, and $200 for fog lights. Do you have actual vehicle pricing where these things are offered ala carte?

I'm willing to leave the 5.3L vs. 6.0L out of the equation and take the hybrid powertrain as a whole. According to Car and Driver, the hybrid may be slightly faster, but it doesn't sound like a huge difference.

Power seat adjustments are hardly ever offered a la carte, but the cost of power seats usually works out to around $100 per power adjustment.

Fog lights are more commonly a standalone option, and when I last checked they tended to start around $200. But I see them for $95 on the Dodge Caliber, so I'll think about changing that number.

I see no explicit mention of a low range in the hybrid anywhere. If it has one, I need to change that. Consumer Guide shows a low range in the regular Tahoe, but not in the Hybrid. But they also make lots of mistakes.

For any of the feature values, I've made my best estimates and adjust them from time to time if I learn of the feature being offered for a lower price than I show.

But if you don't like my values, any member of the site can input and use their own. Maybe a sunroof is worth nothing to you. Then input 0 for it. You can even input a negative value for a feature you'd pay not to have.

These personal values be stored for you, so you won't need to input them again on each visit.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by plane

<shakes head sadly in mkaresh's direction>

You've admitted you're at least a thousand dollars off for the engine.
Now what about the assist steps that are standard on the hybrid?
What about the backup camera that is standard on the hybrid?
Neither are mentioned in your article.
Now throw in the touch-screen Nav radio.
And the third row seats.
Pop off an allowance for the heated seats,
even though in all your charity,
you only ascribed $1200 for all the different additional features listed in your article.

Hmmm.
Looks like your numbers are off:

Hybrid Price:........................................$55600
Extras Mentioned in article:........................-$.1200
Engine:.............................................-$.1049
Third-Row Seats:....................................-$..750
Assist Steps........................................-$..750
Touch Screen Nav Radio:.............................-$.2500
Backup Camera:......................................-$.2000
Heated Seat Allowance................................$..400
Tax Rebate..........................................-$.1800
Hybrid - Adjusted comparable price to consumer.$45,951

I admitted no such thing for the engine. I said that engines can't easily be compared, so I don't.

I added all of the features not mentioned to the Tahoe LT, so they were on both vehicles being compared. They're in the price of the Tahoe LT as configured. The Hybrid costs nearly $9000 more than that loaded up LT, even though the loaded LT has $1,200 in extra stuff.

Let me restate that last bit: the extra $1,200 is on the Tahoe LT, not the Hybrid. You should be adding that $1,200 to the price of the Hybrid, not subtracting it.

You can't buy a Tahoe without the assist steps. They're standard even on the LS.

GM charges $250 for the rearview camera as a standalone option. Where'd you get that $2,000? And, again, it's on both vehicles as configured. As is the nav, third row, heated first row, etc.

Sorry, I'm the one who should be shaking his head, not you.

GM said the cost was around $10,000. They're charging nearly $10,000 more at invoice. In other words, they're doing us a favor by offering the 2-mode system "at cost"

Problem is, GM's cost is crazy high.

[mkaresh]

One thing about the tax credit: many people who can afford a $50,000 vehicle won't be eligible for it, because they run up against the AMT. This is widely discussed on hybrid forums, even for more affordable cars like the Prius.

So my site shows the tax credit where it's available, but many people won't get it.

[MelvinJ]

I'm looking at GMS prices for Tahoes on the GMFamilyFirst website. The GMS price for the 3LT package is $3225, not $3155. This may make sense since invoice should be a bit lower than GMS, at least that's my understanding.

The GMS price of the Hybrid 2WD is $44,533, not $45,871. GMS prices are never less than Invoice - my understanding is they should be a percent or two higher. Where did you get the invoice price from? The 2WD is $32,138, not $33,073. Again, I don't think GMS prices should be lower than invoice, and your numbers put the hybrid at a $400 disadvantage. Where are you getting your pricing?

Why would 4WD on the Hybrid be more expensive ($2945 vs. $2805) if you consider it to not have a low-range? (Again, I've never seen anything to indicate that the Hybrid gets a different transfer case). The price difference between a 2WD LT and 4WD LT is exactly the same ($2805 retail) as the Hybrid, so your prices should reflect that. It's not something you have to guess at. For whatever reason, at GMS level, 4WD is priced $28 higher on the Hybrid ($2510 vs. $2482).

The SED package at GMS is $3032, which is cheaper than what you have listed, so this gives an advantage to the LT3.

These are prices updated November 30.

[plane]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

I admitted no such thing for the engine. I said that engines can't easily be compared, so I don't.

You don't? Not on any other vehicle? Wrong.

Originally Posted by mkaresh

I added all of the features not mentioned to the Tahoe LT, so they were on both vehicles being compared. They're in the price of the Tahoe LT as configured. The Hybrid costs nearly $9000 more than that loaded up LT, even though the loaded LT has $1,200 in extra stuff.

Let me restate that last bit: the extra $1,200 is on the Tahoe LT, not the Hybrid. You should be adding that $1,200 to the price of the Hybrid, not subtracting it.

Where's the beef? If you're going to complain about the numbers, then put them out here for everyone to see.
Option for option, in a way that is consistent with the dealer's ordering guide.
Including the source.
Because your second-hand source seems way off.

Originally Posted by mkaresh

You can't buy a Tahoe without the assist steps. They're standard even on the LS.

True, In black only.
http://www.chevrolet.com/tahoe/features/

Originally Posted by mkaresh

GM charges $250 for the rearview camera as a standalone option. Where'd you get that $2,000? And, again, it's on both vehicles as configured. As is the nav, third row, heated first row, etc.

Excuse me? I just configured the 3LT and the Sun, Entertainment and Destination package is $4790, which adds the nav and the rearview camera.
The third row seats are actually $860, not $750.

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Sorry, I'm the one who should be shaking his head, not you.

<shakes his head sadly again in mkaresh's direction>

Originally Posted by mkaresh

GM said the cost was around $10,000. They're charging nearly $10,000 more at invoice. In other words, they're doing us a favor by offering the 2-mode system "at cost"

Problem is, GM's cost is crazy high.

You've done absolutely nothing convincing to show $10,000
No math.
Nothing.
Full of lack of substance signifying nothing.

Show us the beef mkaresh.
Show us the math.
Because when people really start looking at your numbers, you lose credibility.

www.chevrolet.com

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

Michael, where did you see anything about the Hybrid not having a low-range transfer case? Chevy's website lists the same Autotrac transfer case for all 4X4's.

Some of the option prices you use seem a little high, like $100 extra for each power lumbar, and $200 for driver's seat memory, and $200 for fog lights. Do you have actual vehicle pricing where these things are offered ala carte?

I'm willing to leave the 5.3L vs. 6.0L out of the equation and take the hybrid powertrain as a whole. According to Car and Driver, the hybrid may be slightly faster, but it doesn't sound like a huge difference.

Okay, it looks like the 4x4 does have a low range. Found an interior photo where the knob is visible So the adjusted price difference shrinks by $500.

Still nearly $9,500.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

Okay, it looks like the 4x4 does have a low range. Found an interior photo where the knob is visible So the adjusted price difference shrinks by $500.

Still nearly $9,500.

You're contradicting your own website. When you choose Maximize Shared Features, it's only saying $9060 now. And when you choose Minimize Shared Features, it's only an $8060 difference (because it gets around some of the highly questionable option prices). If we address the invoice price discrepency of $400, which looks wrong to me, it brings the invoice difference back down also, and then we are talking only $7800 difference (I can round down just as easily as you round up). I guess $10,000 makes a much flashier headline than $7800 though.

[mkaresh]

Domestic vehicles usually sell for around invoice, so I was going with the invoice difference. Which is $9,361.

The difference between the Min and Max results is mostly accounted for by the discounted price of the "Sun, Entertainment, and Destinations" package, which is available on the LT but not the Hybrid. If you want your Tahoe with a sunroof and entertainment system, Max is the more valid result. If you don't want these features, then Min is the more valid result.

I suspect most of the Hybrids will be sold with both options. Both tend to be popular on $50,000 SUVs.

The invoice gap is larger because GM's current system gives dealers a much larger margin on options than on the base price. Since the optioned up Tahoe LT has more, um, options, it has a larger dealer margin (i.e. a relatively low invoice).

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by plane

You don't? Not on any other vehicle? Wrong.

Where's the beef? If you're going to complain about the numbers, then put them out here for everyone to see.
Option for option, in a way that is consistent with the dealer's ordering guide.
Including the source.
Because your second-hand source seems way off.

True, In black only.
http://www.chevrolet.com/tahoe/features/

Excuse me? I just configured the 3LT and the Sun, Entertainment and Destination package is $4790, which adds the nav and the rearview camera.
The third row seats are actually $860, not $750.

<shakes his head sadly again in mkaresh's direction>

You've done absolutely nothing convincing to show $10,000
No math.
Nothing.
Full of lack of substance signifying nothing.

Show us the beef mkaresh.
Show us the math.
Because when people really start looking at your numbers, you lose credibility.

www.chevrolet.com

Plane, what's the record for "most number of times someone has proven Plane wrong, without fazing him"? I suspect we're not nearly there yet

The numbers are all on my site, as MelvinJ has seen.

The $750 for third row seats was your number, not mine. And my program added them to the Tahoe LT, for $860. So they're a wash, they're not included in the price difference I reported, THEY DON'T COUNT HERE.

There's a $1,000 discount if you order the Sun, Ent, Dest. Package. Chevy's system shows this discount on a separate line. Which can be confusing, apparently. It looks like this:

OPTION PACKAGE DISCOUNT Sun, entertainment & destination package savings (1SZ) $-1,000.00

To eliminate the confusion, my site shows only the net price, $3,790.

Well, at least we got the assist steps out of the way...

Finally, this whole thing about my "credibility" is the sort of play made in politics when the facts just aren't there to support your own argument.