Report: New GM Diesel Will Be 4.5 Liters; MY10 Pickups To Get Engine

[JacozSS]

Guys, while I am all for new product on the showroom floor (and we need it in some areas), it takes time to get things to get to us. They need time to tool up and most importantly, get it right. We all know about Ford rushing their new diesel to market and the YouTube fun with the F250 Flame Thrower Edition. GM can't have this. We are getting a lot in a short time, and it is happening now.

[KingElvis]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

I'm guessing it was. It's supposed to have the pretty much the same footprint of a Vortec small-block.

When will all of the other light-truck manufacturers have their diesels out? Ford in MY 2009?, Toyota in ???, Nissan in ???, Dodge in ??? Anybody know any of their timelines?

But remember how it actually DIDN'T fit in the Rainer test mule? They had some wierd bulges on the hood.

[Z06ified]

Originally Posted by motorman

it will be interesting to see if buyers are willing to pay the extra $3/4K or more for a diesel. it takes a long time to make up the savings in fuel if you only drive 12K/15 K miles a year.

In 1999, only 7% of Suburbans sold had the 6.5L turbo diesel engine. One of several reasons a diesel option wasn't continued for the full size SUV's and 1/2 ton pickups (that, and the new Duramax with the Allison wouldn't fit).

I would expect 10-15% of the full size SUV's would be diesels if it were offered today, increasing as fuel prices increase and perceptions of diesels change with time. For 1/2 ton pickups, I wouldn't be surprised to see 20-25% market share for this diesel.

Payback for the diesel premium will be recovered sooner than you think. Assuming 15k per year, and the typical 33% better fuel economy of a diesel versus gas, and $3.00/gal. for diesel vs. $3.25 gal/ for gas like it is today, you'll save $1,250 per year on fuel with the diesel. Payback for a $4k premium is only 3.2 years or 48,000 miles. Much quicker if fuel prices go up from here.

Considering the average useful life of a diesel engine before overhaul or replacement is 300,000 miles, the diesel will save $25,000 in fuel over those 300,000 miles versus a gas engine (assuming the gas engine lasts that long - add the cost of a gas engine replacement to that number if it doesn't). This is why you get most of that $3k-$4k premium back for the diesel engine when you go to sell it as a used vehicle.

Unfortunately, only fleet managers and people like me (I'm a financial analyst) sit down and do the math to figure it out. The average car consumer just sees the $4k sticker shock for the diesel, cringes, and moves on to the gas model.

[Z06ified]

Originally Posted by titanguy

I think this is great news but I have a feeling that another manufacturer will beat them to the punch. It will be interesting to see how the competition approaches this. I had heard rumors that Dodge was going to be the first into the half ton diesel arena? Does anyone know?

Ford will beat them to the market with a 1/2 ton diesel by about a year. I think theirs is due by the end of 2008 as a 2009 model. Similar displacement and power as this GM diesel, built in England by Ford of Europe. Basically a modified Range Rover diesel sold in Europe.

Definitely going into the F-150. Only thing that remains to be seen is if they offer it in their full size SUV's like the Expedition and Navigator.

Haven't heard if Dodge is going to offer a diesel with their 1/2 ton Ram, but I'm sure if Ford and GM are doing it, they will too. Wouldn't take much to detune one of the Cummins 6B models for 1/2 ton use.

On the car diesel front, both Honda and Nissan have announced specific vehicles that will be offered with a diesel around 2009-2010. The Honda Accord will have a 4-cylinder diesel option, and the Nissan Maxima will have a diesel option as well - not sure if it will be a 4 or 6 cylinder yet. All will meet 2009 EPA 50-state emissions requirements. VW will bring back a 50-state compliant TDI 4-cylinder diesel next year for the Rabbit, Jetta, and probably the Passat, and the Toureg SUV will have a 50-state compliant V-8 diesel by 2009 as well. Mercedes will offer 50-state V-6 diesels on all of their SUV models by 2009, including the GL, R-class, and ML. E320 Bluetec is the only 50-state legal car diesel sold in the U.S. right now, and will obviously continue, and may be offered on the C and S-class models as well over the next few years. The Chrysler 300 was supposed to get the Bluetec diesel too, but now that Daimler bailed out, I'm not sure that's still going to happen.

Toyota has pretty much ignored the diesel market in the U.S. They believe the future will continue to be gas powered hybrids. They may offer a Tundra diesel if forced into it (i.e. if GM and Ford are selling lots of 1/2 ton diesels), but if they do, they'll be last to market with one. No car diesels planned from Toyota.

[Z06ified]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

But remember how it actually DIDN'T fit in the Rainer test mule? They had some wierd bulges on the hood.

There was only one bulge on the side fender from what I recall. Probably to clear the turbocharger on that side. They used the Rainer as a test bed for fit because that had the tightest engine compartment out of any GM vehicle that had the Vortec gas V-8.

I suppose since it almost fit in the Rainer (just needed a bit more width), it proved that it will definitely fit in the full size GMT900's.

[gmbow]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

The Mercedes BlueTec turbodiesel in the E-class displaces 3.0 liters (despite the "E320" model name) and makes 204 horsepower and 388 pound feet of torque. If GM's V8 can do as well, then 3.3 or 3.5 liters for a turbodiesel would be plenty for a half ton owner that wanted good fuel economy without sacrificing any towing power.

Toyota's new 5.7 gasser has 381 hp and 401 lb ft tq now. They failed to calculate the engine mix in the pickup intro and now cannot keep up with the 5.7 demand. The lesson is successfull company's listen to what the customer wants and gives it to them not decides what the customer needs and gives that to them. If any segment of the market knows what they need it's the truck buyer.

[gmbow]

From this article http://www.allpar.com/model/ram/2009-ram.html it looks like Dodge will also beat GM by a year with a Cummins V8.

[Z06ified]

Originally Posted by gmbow

From this article http://www.allpar.com/model/ram/2009-ram.html it looks like Dodge will also beat GM by a year with a Cummins V8.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of a new Cummins V-8. I'm surprised Cummins would build an entirely new engine for this application. Historically, Cummins has always built engine series for multiple applications. For example the 6B is not only used in the Dodge Ram, it is used in many industrial and marine applications as well, such as for construction equipment, generators, boat engines, drilling equipment, etc. They already have a smaller 4B engine, which could be used in a 1/2 ton pickup, but I guess there would be too much negative stigma from a marketing standpoint with having a 4-cylinder in a full size pickup.

It just seems to me it would be a lot easier and cheaper to use a detuned 6B in the 1/2 tons, rather than developing an entirely new engine with a different configuration. Unless Cummins has other plans for this new engine too, such as for marine use. It would be a good size for a variety of popular boats, and could be hooked up to a Mercruiser stern drive to give Volvo a run for it's money in that market, as well as provide a viable fuel saving alternative to gas stern drives on boat sizes that normally wouldn't have a diesel option available.

It must have a much smaller foot print than the 6B. I've seen pictures of the 6B versus the Detroit 6.5L V-8 in my Suburban, and the 6B looks HUGE by comparison, despite having 2 less cylinders and only 5.9L of displacement.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by JacozSS

Guys, while I am all for new product on the showroom floor (and we need it in some areas), it takes time to get things to get to us. They need time to tool up and most importantly, get it right. We all know about Ford rushing their new diesel to market and the YouTube fun with the F250 Flame Thrower Edition. GM can't have this. We are getting a lot in a short time, and it is happening now.

I can accept that. However, GM really needs to learn how to bring things to maket faster. GM is fighting for survival and growth; the old model just won't work. Announcing something that won't come along for two+ years isn't acceptable.

[korvetkeith]

Originally Posted by MelvinJ

It probably could, but with the two-mode price tag probably at the very least $3k, and another $4-5k for the diesel premium, you are talking about a pretty hefty price tag to save fuel in a half ton truck. I wouldn't think it would have many takers.

30mpg full size trucks and SUVs anyone? They'd be fast, tow a lot, and efficient.

[theoldchevykid]

Originally Posted by Z06ified

Interesting. I wasn't aware of a new Cummins V-8. I'm surprised Cummins would build an entirely new engine for this application. Historically, Cummins has always built engine series for multiple applications. For example the 6B is not only used in the Dodge Ram, it is used in many industrial and marine applications as well, such as for construction equipment, generators, boat engines, drilling equipment, etc. They already have a smaller 4B engine, which could be used in a 1/2 ton pickup, but I guess there would be too much negative stigma from a marketing standpoint with having a 4-cylinder in a full size pickup.

It just seems to me it would be a lot easier and cheaper to use a detuned 6B in the 1/2 tons, rather than developing an entirely new engine with a different configuration. Unless Cummins has other plans for this new engine too, such as for marine use. It would be a good size for a variety of popular boats, and could be hooked up to a Mercruiser stern drive to give Volvo a run for it's money in that market, as well as provide a viable fuel saving alternative to gas stern drives on boat sizes that normally wouldn't have a diesel option available.

It must have a much smaller foot print than the 6B. I've seen pictures of the 6B versus the Detroit 6.5L V-8 in my Suburban, and the 6B looks HUGE by comparison, despite having 2 less cylinders and only 5.9L of displacement.

DIESELPOWER mag. has a full story on the new V6 and V8 diesel Cummins motors. it is the December 2006 issue. the new V8 diesel will go in the 1/2 ton and the V6 in Durangos and possible the Dakota. I allmost forgot the power, the V6 is 270hp and 420 lb-ft of torque ,the V8 is 325 and 500lb-ft of torque.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by korvetkeith

30mpg full size trucks and SUVs anyone? They'd be fast, tow a lot, and efficient.

It would be a sweet package all right. There have been conflicting opinions on how well diesels adapt to hybrid duty (the stopping and starting part), but GM has the diesel Astra hybrid concept, so apparently it's workable. The hybrid busses don't actually shut down the diesel when coasting or stopped like automobile hybrids do.

I'm very intrigued by the Tahoe two-mode hybrid, but I tend to use my Suburban mostly for long trips, with a lot of that towing, so this diesel would probably be a better option for me.

[MelvinJ]

Originally Posted by KingElvis

But remember how it actually DIDN'T fit in the Rainer test mule? They had some wierd bulges on the hood.

Well, I did say it 'pretty much' fit the in the same footprint of the small block. I remember there was a graphic of overlaid outlines of the two engines and there were a couple of places the diesel popped out of the small blocks shadow. That far in advance, I'm sure the diesel wasn't in it's fully production form, so some trimming may be done yet.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by JacozSS

Guys, while I am all for new product on the showroom floor (and we need it in some areas), it takes time to get things to get to us. They need time to tool up and most importantly, get it right. We all know about Ford rushing their new diesel to market and the YouTube fun with the F250 Flame Thrower Edition. GM can't have this. We are getting a lot in a short time, and it is happening now.

You're correct that they must get a great product and they have to get everything right the first time.

Which means they screwed up in a major way by not starting work on the diesels 5 or 10 years earlier. (Just like the six speed autos or direct fuel injection.) When you're the biggest automaker in the world - a title GM had for well over half a century - you should consistently be the first to market with every major technical and feature innovation. That hasn't been the case in a long time for GM.

[DDelphic]

This news will happen Friday at about 2 PM , the stage has been set already and the bulletin boards have "Welcome Visitors to the TONAWANDA ENGINE PLANT"our # one priority is safety please be careful while visiting.Said to be a full media event with all major TV networks there.....or so said.NY Governer for sure.State police in for security checks all day today.

The engines (V6&V8) will be made of compacted graphite iron, and will not be machined at the facility for that reason.

GM stock has been going up the past few days perhaps a few insiders trading in anticipation............