GM May Break SUV-Truck Marriage to Cut Fuel Use, Emissions

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Elk

This story is written by someone that doesn’t know what they are talking about.

GM already has a crossover replacement for their full-size SUVs it’s the Lambdas (and they were built before the new CAFE standards). CAFE isn’t going to result in GM build a more efficient Tahoe, it’s just going to kill the Tahoe.

I can’t believe I’m still having the argument. For the thousand time: CAFE doesn’t make vehicles more efficient, there is no 30 mpg Tahoe sitting in some secret GM building that GM will bring out because of CAFE. All CAFE does is create a defacto ban on vehicles with low fuel economy.

Sorry we joust again on this CAFE issue. Actually it has nothing ( or very little to do with what GM is strategizing ). GM first and foremost has to make vehicles that the public wants to buy, then deal with CAFE.

If we the public are telling them that we are 'over' the SUV binge, and we are, then GM just has to react, and they are. CAFE is an afterthought that has little or no bearing on GM's future plans. K-1 noted correctly that the Lambda's were conceived, tested and put into production well before CAFE 35 ever was written. Wagoner here is just acknowledging that GM has to move faster yet because the speed of the public's evacuation from SUVs is faster than anyone could have imagined.

[mgescuro]

Good. Let's get the Escalade on a modified premium CUV Zeta platform.

[GM-10]

Originally Posted by Elk

VW Touareg length: 187" width: 75" curb weight: 5,086 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ouareg-2-3.htm
TrailBlazer length: 191" width: 74" curb weight: 4,523 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ilblazer-3.htm

If you don’t know the Touareg is unibody. And as you can see it has less head, leg and cargo room.

Unibodys are only lighter and more roomy when they are FWD. When you build a RWD unibody you end-up with a vehicle that’s just as heavy. The only up side is better handling. I dare you to find a RWD unibody SUV that’s lighter then it’s body on frame equivalent.

Jeep Grand Cherokee
which is unibody and also a midsize SUV and can offroad as well or better than the Trailblazer. It also was optimized for off road performance and is lighter.
http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/grandcherokee/review.html
has a curb weight of 4470
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...cherokee-3.htm

[Slideways]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

I think I can make a more fair evaluation of the Ridgeline, than you:
- Yes, it's ugly.

I like your response, you won me right at the start.
Yeah, I'm a bit biased, so your evaluation is probably more fair, but in my defense, I've driven a Ridgeline, so part of my comtempt for it comes from being highly underwhelmed in person.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by Elk

VW Touareg length: 187" width: 75" curb weight: 5,086 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ouareg-2-3.htm
TrailBlazer length: 191" width: 74" curb weight: 4,523 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ilblazer-3.htm

If you don’t know the Touareg is unibody. And as you can see it has less head, leg and cargo room.

Unibodys are only lighter and more roomy when they are FWD. When you build a RWD unibody you end-up with a vehicle that’s just as heavy. The only up side is better handling. I dare you to find a RWD unibody SUV that’s lighter then it’s body on frame equivalent.

The Touareg is a bad example, and baloo did a good job explaining why in this post:
First official drawing of VW's new pickup.
(I was comparing the Touareg and other FWD unibody SUVs.)

Originally Posted by baloo

Stuff adds up, and there's simply a good bit more hardware in a Touareg. MacPherson struts vs. double-wishbone/four-link, 5-spd auto vs. 6-spd auto + locking diffs + low range t-case, 5000lb vs 7700lb tow rating, longer wheel base, wider track, bigger brakes.

And don't underestimate how much weight is added by making a platform offroadable (stiffness, durability), premium (dual firewall, isolated subframes etc.) and capable of accomodating turbo 12-cyls. Just look at Lexus' own LX570 for comparison. Same wheelbase as the Touareg, but it weighs 6000lb.

- It's exceptionally capable for a unibody SUV. Max tow capacity is 7700 pounds, versus 6800 for the Trailblazer.
- The Touareg has a six speed automatic to the Trailblazer's four speed automatic.
- The strongest engine available in the Trailblazer is 390 horsepower and 395 foot pounds from an LS2. The strongest engine available on the Touareg is the 310 horsepower, 553 foot pounds V10 TDI. The Touareg's body has to withstand much more torque and deliver it to the ground properly.
- The strongest engine the Trailblazer's platform has to support is the same LS2. The strongest engine the Touareg's platform has to support is the Porsche Cayenne's 500 horsepower and 516 pound feet of torque. Again, the Touareg's body has to withstand more torque and deliver it to the ground properly.
- Luxury cars are often much heavier than similar size cheaper vehicles because of the weight of suspension pieces and sound dampening that add to ride quality and cabin quietness. The Touareg has a better, quieter ride than the Trailblazer.
- The Trailblazer has mediocre crash ratings. The Touareg has not been tested in the US, but the Australasian New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP) testing gave it excellent ratings: http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicles/anc...-lhd-2005.html

[Jimmy Jive]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Good. Let's get the Escalade on a modified premium CUV Zeta platform.

That's the first thing I thought when i read this, about using Zeta. Perhaps a beefed up version of Zeta LWB, can be used to build these SUV replacements.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Michael_S

The Ridgeline is unibody, and Honda's first attempt at a pickup in the US, and it can tow 5000 pounds.

I am sure GM can make a unibody SUV the size of a Tahoe or Suburban that can still tow as much as the current body on frame models.

Grand Cherokee's are Unibody, and the next Durango will be as well. So ti can be done.

Chrysler is killing BOF SUV's from the line-up. GM will eventually too.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by Elk

VW Touareg length: 187" width: 75" curb weight: 5,086 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ouareg-2-3.htm
TrailBlazer length: 191" width: 74" curb weight: 4,523 lbs.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...ilblazer-3.htm

If you don’t know the Touareg is unibody. And as you can see it has less head, leg and cargo room.

Unibodys are only lighter and more roomy when they are FWD. When you build a RWD unibody you end-up with a vehicle that’s just as heavy. The only up side is better handling. I dare you to find a RWD unibody SUV that’s lighter then it’s body on frame equivalent.

What about GC to Trailblazer?

[1931Chevy]

I dont think that its a good idea to take your full size SUV and go into a car platform, but considering that they are planning on killing their midsize SUV and going the crossover route it looks like the same faith could go to the GMT 900 SUVs
long live the GMT360

Lambda Traverse replaces the Uplander and TrailBlazer
Theta Terrain replaces the Torrent and Envoy
Theta 9-4X replace Saab 9-7X

IMO GM is about to make a big mistake by putting all of their eggs in the same basket and by this I mean that GM is concetrating on making their crossover big 7 passenger vehicles instead of shotting as a 5 person vehicle, and with GM killing the trail blazers, Ford and Chrysler will have whats left of the Midsize SUV market because its shrinking but I dont think it will dissapear

[racy]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

If we the public are telling them that we are 'over' the SUV binge, and we are, then GM just has to react, and they are. CAFE is an afterthought that has little or no bearing on GM's future plans. K-1 noted correctly that the Lambda's were conceived, tested and put into production well before CAFE 35 ever was written. Wagoner here is just acknowledging that GM has to move faster yet because the speed of the public's evacuation from SUVs is faster than anyone could have imagined.

I am luke warm with this response. Intuitively, I agree. But there's that thing called diesel engines. If GM were truly reacting to a real drop in demand (not an economically forced drop) for trucks, then GM would be offering their new trucks with clean, highly efficient diesel engines - also capable of running on biodiesel, of course.

I know I am the one who posted the article, but I do take it with a grain of salt. I just don't think we know yet. There is a large contingent who actually think gas prices are going to drop - and these people are making product decisions.

Rather than sink tens of billions into new unibody truck designs, they could sink a fraction of that into subsidising diesel engines the same way Toyota subsidised the Prius.

[nailhead425]

Towing capacity, especially Max Towing, is only a part of the equation. Most folks don't consider the load in the vehicle before hooking up the trailer. So, let us say you load up your Ridgeline with your family, camping gear and your 4k trailer. Well, chances are good that you are over the GCWR.

We rarely tow the 6k rating of our Grand Cherokee, but it is nice to know that the 4k trailer and fully loaded vehicle are still within spec.

BOF vehicles benefit from a second level of NVH isolation which is advantageous in the luxury market, yet unitized construction is cheaper.

The 4.5 Duramax will save the Tahoe. Especially when all the cars get silly little 4cyl engines.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by 1931Chevy

I dont think that its a good idea to take your full size SUV and go into a car platform, but considering that they are planning on killing their midsize SUV and going the crossover route it looks like the same faith could go to the GMT 900 SUVs
long live the GMT360

Lambda Traverse replaces the Uplander and TrailBlazer
Theta Terrain replaces the Torrent and Envoy
Theta 9-4X replace Saab 9-7X

IMO GM is about to make a big mistake by putting all of their eggs in the same basket and by this I mean that GM is concetrating on making their crossover big 7 passenger vehicles instead of shotting as a 5 person vehicle, and with GM killing the trail blazers, Ford and Chrysler will have whats left of the Midsize SUV market because its shrinking but I dont think it will dissapear

Actually it ( the midsized SUV segment ) is finished...DOA except as a niche for drivers in deserts, swamps and snowfilled mountains. Ford has already announced that it will no longer make BOF midsized SUVs. The next Explorer will be a crossover. Toyota is cutting back on the 4Runner/FJ. GM ( from this quote ) has just announce the imminent death of the TrailBlazer/Envoy.

....and Chrysler simply has no clue and no options apparently.

The facts are all over the monthly stats.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by jkr2106

Hmm...replace Tahoes with lighter non-truck based suv...

Traverse?...I'm not sure I get this announcement. The minute an SUV isn't based on a truck, it's a crossover and GM already has an excellent crossover platform that's the same size as a Tahoe with better FE.

Can someone break this down for me?

What "truck" is the Range Rover based on?

What "truck" is the Defender based on?

What "truck" is the Land Cruiser based on?

What "truck" is the G-Wagon based on?

What "truck" is the GL-Class based on?

What "truck" is the Touareg based on?

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by 1931Chevy

IMO GM is about to make a big mistake by putting all of their eggs in the same basket and by this I mean that GM is concetrating on making their crossover big 7 passenger vehicles instead of shotting as a 5 person vehicle, and with GM killing the trail blazers, Ford and Chrysler will have whats left of the Midsize SUV market because its shrinking but I dont think it will dissapear

But as other people said, the Jeep Grand Cherokee is a perfectly capable midsize SUV and it's unibody.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by K-1

The Lambdas were under development long before the new CAFE standard was passed. Similar size, better fuel economy, less towing.

Thank you!

Fantasy is that the government is the solution to everything (or "greases the skids").

Reality is that the market has always outpaced "CAFE".