Lutz's Cadillac Puts On A Better Show Than Lutz.

[poncho1982]

Originally Posted by blank disk

This whole challenge is a joke.

Who really cares about a limited production sedan that nobody can afford or want.

You know, it's obvious you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

Nice try.

[iluvcamaros]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

That's a myth. The first muscle car was the '49 Oldsmoblie Rocket 88. You probably believe Henry Ford invented the automobile assembly line too. Hint: Ransom E. Olds, Olds Motor Company 1901... 7 years before Ford.

Anyway, Great Job by Bob Lutz. He did a great job (particularly as a 77 year old) in his performance, and a FANTASTIC job at generating some excitement around Cadillac.

It isn't a myth, most publications agree that it is impossible to pin the first muscle car since the category is so ill-defined. Anything vaguely performance oriented could be lumped into it. The GTO is deservedly considered the clear "first" because it started the hellacious war for power in intermediate sized cars that peaked around 1970. The Chevelle SS, Buick Skylark GS, Oldsmobile 442, Ford Fairlane/Torino GT, Plymouth GTX, and Dodge Charger all followed in its footsteps. The classic package of bucket seats, big V8, hood scoops, bright paint, and pretentious name (Gran Turismo Omologato) etc was pioneered by Delorean's 1964 GTO.

Wikipedia calls the '49 Oldsmobile a "precursor" to the muscle car. Many people also use this to refer to 50's Hemi's in Chrysler Forward Look cars. Nobody considers them clear definitions of the "muscle car" category.

[V8GMT360 Guy]

There are a great many 77 year old men who have no business driving to church on Sunday, let alone taking a 556 HP muscle sedan around a race track. So the fact that Lutz could manage a 2:56 around the track in a CTS-V at all makes him a winner in my book. Screw the BMW with an experienced and talented driver nearly one quarter his age.

[WillCG]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

That's a myth. The first muscle car was the '49 Oldsmoblie Rocket 88. You probably believe Henry Ford invented the automobile assembly line too. Hint: Ransom E. Olds, Olds Motor Company 1901... 7 years before Ford.

Anyway, Great Job by Bob Lutz. He did a great job (particularly as a 77 year old) in his performance, and a FANTASTIC job at generating some excitement around Cadillac.

So....who first coined the term "muscle car" and to which car was it first applied?

[blank disk]

Originally Posted by WillCG

If you don't have anything positive to say about this, then why the hell are you here?

Who really cares? I do. Why? Because there are a few auto enthusiasts out there who dig cars. They appreciate cars for their design, their performance, and the sheer fact that such cars even exist. Unlike, say, people who look at a beauty like a '55 or '57 Bel Air and say, "What's the point?"

So what if I can't afford one. I cheer Cadillac and GM for having the balls to develop and produce such a car in the first place, especially given the times we live in.

Not only that, this Caddy is but one GM car in a long line of performance highs, starting with the '64 GTO (which started the muscle car craze, as you likely know) and continuing with the SD-455 Trans Am (fastest production car in the 1970s), the Buick Grand National & GNX, the 20th Anniversary Trans Am (with the Buick Turbo engine), and, of course, the Corvette. All of the engineers and designers of these fantastic automobiles had balls to produce such vehicles.

Forgive me, I did not realize I could only speak positively in an open forum.

The point I was making, was that with CAFE getting getting slammed down everyones throat, cars like the V series will be extinct in no time, and what few will remain, will be taxed to the max due to their pathetic fuel economy, afforded by even fewer than today. How can anyone get excited about that? The styling (art and science) was played out like a decade ago, and is not even attractive anymore. The interior styling is a lesson in wretched excessiveness as well, especially for $70,000

It is just a relic from a bygone era, that is slowly proving to be just that.

Sorry.
I am a realist. I call it as I see it.

[WillCG]

Originally Posted by blank disk

Forgive me, I did not realize I could only speak positively in an open forum.

The point I was making, was that with CAFE getting getting slammed down everyones throat, cars like the V series will be extinct in no time, and what few will remain, will be taxed to the max due to their pathetic fuel economy, afforded by even fewer than today. How can anyone get excited about that? The styling (art and science) was played out like a decade ago, and is not even attractive anymore. The interior styling is a lesson in wretched excessiveness as well, especially for $70,000

It is just a relic from a bygone era, that is slowly proving to be just that.

Sorry.
I am a realist. I call it as I see it.

I guess we just have different opinions. It's a good thing that the folks at GM who gave us the great cars that I listed in my prior post weren't realists, because otherwise Pontiac & GM wouldn't have given the middle finger to oil and insurance prices and given us the Super Duty Trans Ams or continued with a 400 cubic inch V-8 after the '73 & '77 oil crises.

As for tempering my enthusiasm and excitement over the V in the here & now based on what may happen in the near future, sorry, but I'm not going there. I'll probably die from stress-induced cardiac arrest in a few years, yet I'm not going to let that spoil what fun I can and should be having up until that point. I've got a '74 Trans Am sitting in my garage just itching for a restoration; my Dad purchased it new that year. I'm not going to cast it away just because it is a "relic" from a bygone era.

As for any gas guzzler tax, current 2010 figures for the V, per a Google search, show $1300 for the manual and double that for the auto. I'd wager that most folks signing the note for a $62,000 Caddy aren't too worried about that extra amount. Will it be more in the future? Probably. What will Caddy & GM do then? Who knows?

If GM and Caddy survive, unless something radical happens (i.e. the government prohibits such vehicles), I almost guarantee you we will have the equivalent of a CTS-V 15 to 20 years from now if nothing more than to showcase state-of-the-art technology. It may be solar powered...it may be hydrogen powered...it may have a miniature nuclear reactor on board...but we will have it.

Finally, as to the exterior/interior styling...to each his own, I reckon.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by blank disk

The point I was making, was that with CAFE getting getting slammed down everyones throat, cars like the V series will be extinct in no time, and what few will remain, will be taxed to the max due to their pathetic fuel economy, afforded by even fewer than today. How can anyone get excited about that? The styling (art and science) was played out like a decade ago, and is not even attractive anymore. The interior styling is a lesson in wretched excessiveness as well, especially for $70,000

It is just a relic from a bygone era, that is slowly proving to be just that.

Sorry.
I am a realist. I call it as I see it.

Uhhh.... they're making Voltecs to offset these things. This is nothing but conjecture on your part.

If you're saying there will not he high performance cars in the future you're not being a realist, you're just trying to inflict your negative vision on the rest of us. High performance cars ARE NOT going away. The propulsion methods might change as technology advances, but there will still be fast cars.

And although $70K might be a lot for you (and me, too) there will always be people who have the jack for this stuff. Thank god, because I'm going to want to buy their car from them in the future... the "everyman" can still get one but must be patient. I have no doubt it'll be worth the wait...

[Dr. Show-Me]

So the Jalopnik guy was 12 seconds slower than 77 year old Bob Lutz and 22 seconds slower than the fastest CTS-V? What is his favorite flavor of humble pie?

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

So the Jalopnik guy was 12 seconds slower than 77 year old Bob Lutz and 22 seconds slower than the fastest CTS-V? What is his favorite flavor of humble pie?

Well, to be fair he was stuck in an EVO because Jaguar finked out on him.

[87GN&98VET]

Is anyone really suprised that the M3 beat Lutz's time? I'm not, the car has a huge weight advantage. The CTS-V is a great car and the best performance in it's class. The M3 is not in the same class.

[Dr. Show-Me]

This is a marketing coup for Lutz and Cadillac. Those that competed against the CTS-V lost, giving support the its legitimacy.
Those that refused to compete appeared weak and afraid.
Those that gave support after the fact belied their supposed lack of interest.
The big winner in this is CTS-V and Bob Lutz.

[poncho1982]

Originally Posted by blank disk

Forgive me, I did not realize I could only speak positively in an open forum.

The point I was making, was that with CAFE getting getting slammed down everyones throat, cars like the V series will be extinct in no time, and what few will remain, will be taxed to the max due to their pathetic fuel economy, afforded by even fewer than today. How can anyone get excited about that? The styling (art and science) was played out like a decade ago, and is not even attractive anymore. The interior styling is a lesson in wretched excessiveness as well, especially for $70,000

It is just a relic from a bygone era, that is slowly proving to be just that.

Sorry.
I am a realist. I call it as I see it.

So, because you think the styling is not "attractive" that makes it law? C'mon dude, seriously. You know what opinions are?

I happen to love the styling, and so do many others.

"wretched excessiveness" honestly, where do you come up with this stuff? Perhaps an Aveo is more your type.

Realist? Try dreamer.

[blank disk]

Nice post poncho.
Honestly. You got your point across without being harsh.


Me, well perhaps I was a bit extreme. I Just am pissed that government will have so much control in what we drive in the near future, that I want to vent. Yeah, they talk about no involvement directly, but indirectly they will govern exactly what we drive.
Big thristy V8's will be relics soon. That is a fact. The few that remain in performance vehicles will bore me with excessive cost attached to own.

[eaton53]

This is why we need Voltecs to be successful. They can offset the V8's so we can still have them.
In any case I don't expect the LS motor to go away anytime soon. Or there's that nice used G8 / Camaro...

[stevecmh]

Originally Posted by ZvetteGuy

When I'm 77 I want to be just like Lutz!!!

agreed. I can only hope I am in that good of shape.. and mental capability as he is at 77.. that's just impressive.