AN Comment: Cadillac Should Pull Out Of Europe; 07 Sales In 28 Countries Just 3K

[Uligar]

The key is to offer an alternative to a European marque while not compromising on the key details that Europeans enjoy. Why would a European want to buy an American luxury car, if it is seen as a step down? Might as well buy a domestic, right?

The problem is, Cadillac has no focus. Cadillac's best attempt isn't nearly good enough to compete with the Europeans. It lacks design aethetics, has less room, has less technology, has inferior materials, has horrible ergonomics, poor build quality, and doesn't have the features available to the Europeans.

The reason why Cadillac doesn't do well in Europe is exacerbated by the fact that they still make second rate luxury cars!!!

That's the truth. Cadillac's design is horrible and the build quality isn't comparable with Mercedes, BMW & Audi

[Robert Ryan]

The problem is, Cadillac has no focus. Cadillac's best attempt isn't nearly good enough to compete with the Europeans. It lacks design aethetics, has less room, has less technology, has inferior materials, has horrible ergonomics, poor build quality, and doesn't have the features available to the Europeans.

I would be "Anti-American" if I said the same things. I wonder what group of geniuses are overlooking Cadillac's "Global Image" excuse the pun, but they have certaintly dropped the ball.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

I would be "Anti-American" if I said the same things. I wonder what group of geniuses are overlooking Cadillac's "Global Image" excuse the pun, but they have certaintly dropped the ball.

But Cadillac has certainly lost a lot of focus presently.
Compared to the start of the so-called Renaissance, just a few years ago, there was a solid direction that Cadillac was heading towards.

CTS, STS, XLR anchored the lineup. THey were decent 1st generation cars. SOme didn't sell as well as expected. So, what would a normal company do? They would improve on the existing car and pop out a 2nd generation.
What did Cadillac do? Improve on 1 model... and kill the other 2.

Now Cadillac is getting a FWD CUV that can only hope to perform 80% as well as the out-going SRX.
Cadillac's attempt at a small luxury car failed miserably in Europe.
Cadillac still sells its cars next to Chevy, but manages true standalone dealers in China.
And Cadillac's lineup is complete disaster. Who knows what is what nowadays??

And they still don't have a competent compact sports sedan.
They don't have a car that competes in the high end mid-size market -- only the low and mid-range mid-size market.
They don't have a car that compete in the low-to-high end full-size market.
They are giving up on the roadster market.

Not only shoudl Cadillac pull out of Europe... they're borderline of just being shut down. THey're not a relevant brand!

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Before you start reading - let me remind you that, unlike most people who posted above, I actually DO live in Europe...

The problem with Cadillac is that they don't offer what people would go to them for. In Europe, the CTSs - both the original and the new one - were big news for auto journalists only, as they meant big advertorial deals. Most of the populace think of Cadillac as a large luxo barge, tailfinned or not, but certainly not of a "sports sedan" in the mold of BMW.

If one wants a compact executive (i.e. reasonably-sized, reasonably-priced sports sedan) in Europe, one goes and buys a 3er (in fact, more Europeans do that anually than buy a Passat, Mondeo or Vectra). On second thoughts, one might consider the Audi, or Mercedes (takes a blind man, but still apprently they are permitted to drive).

If you really really really really don't want to go German, you go get an Alfa Romeo. If Alfa Romeo is not to your tastes for some reason, there is the Saab (though recently, this choice is becoming rather desperate).

There is little to convince anybody to pass so many "obvious" choices in favor of an unknown quality from a brand associated with something totally different. It would raise quite a few eyebrows if anybody asked for a sports coupe from GMC - and perhaps same goes for small sports sedans from Cadillac in Europe, except that hardly anybody cares.

There is still a market, even in those uncertain times, for large, comfortable and brash, though. While it takes a desperate fleet manager to treat many European roads to just a taste of the BLS, the Chrysler 300C is a fairly common sight, despite the bulk, price and fuel consumption. Go ask for a more refined and luxurious American sedan from Cadillac, and the best they can answer you with is the STS, which is disappointing in more ways than you can think.

Cadillac can of course succeed, to a limited extent, in Europe. And I believe if Lexus can move into the dozens-of-thousands territory, so can Cadillac. But they need to have the RIGHT PRODUCT, and small cars just aren't that.

I PLUM AGREE PARTNER! Shoot, them there Euro critters know what they want, and when they want a cushy race car, they AIN'T gonna buy no Caddy! They would go to BMW, Mercedes, or Audi for that! Shoot even Jaguar, or Alfa Romeo too, but not Caddy! Nosiree, if they want a big, ol flashy, cushy, fast, luxury machine with Yankee stylin' THEN they will buy a Caddy! The most popular Caddies in Europe are the big, classic REAL Caddies, not them sorry BMW wannabe Caddies!

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by t-rex

While I applaud GM's confidence in believing in could succeed in Europe, it failed miserably in accounting for European taste.

Bravada's right though. Cadillac's only hope in Europe is selling small-volume glitzy luxobarges, since there's no other company (Chrysler excepted) selling cars like that in Europe. And if that's going to be the case, let private importers bother selling them instead of setting up a GM sales operation.

Trying to mimic European sensibilities with an American car is a set-up for failure. Imagine a BMW with tailfins. Or a Mercedes with a pillowy split-bench seat. Picture an Audi, arguably the world's leader in interior ergonomics, with one of GM's infamous Little Tykes dashboards. Okay we all know Caddy and Lincoln have gone well past the fender-skirts and coach-lights era, but they're still brash, quintessentially American designs.

Cadillac will always have a "Teddy Boy" Elvis-and-tailfins image in Europeans' minds. It has nothing to do with how good the CTS or any other Caddy is. They simply don't appeal to Europeans. It's as simple as that.

Fiat haven't been able to sell Lancias outside of Italy for fifteen years now. ASEAN customers won't go near a Lexus because to buyers there, luxury is a strictly European thing, and something Japanese just won't cut it. It's all but impossible to sell a Spaniard or Argentinian a Japanese car. The new crop of Alfas are brilliant, but I doubt highly that many Americans (other than me or nadepalma) will be lining up to buy one. The Japanese don't want ANYBODY else's cars except BMW, Benz, and Mini.

Simply put, different people around the world shy away from certain types of cars, and it's only a few cars that are successful global, namely the German luxo-marques.

If GM are serious about exporting Cadillac, they need to not waste time in places like Europe and Australia. Focus on markets like Russia, China, or maybe Korea and Singapore, where Caddy's brash styling and ostentatious image may find more welcome buyers.

Originally Posted by wescoent

Agreed 100%. This is the reason why I won't ever buy a Cadillac. In my mind, a Cadillac is either a 1976 Coupe De Ville at a local car show, or a 1998 Deville going 55mph in the left lane on I95 South, left blinker on, hauling Uncle Ernie and Aunt Bertha from Queens to Boca. No matter how good the new models are, I can't get that bitter taste out of my mouth.

To be fair, I don't view Mercedes-Benz or Lexus as much better. They're all old man cars. Lincoln is somewhat less distasteful, since they've been my executive business shuttle for years now.

Now, just because I don't like them, doesn't mean the Russians or Chinese won't. I've done a lot of business with folks from China, Russia, India, South America, and Africa, and often we'll talk cars over lunch or dinner. Believe me... the more obnoxious the car, the more they love it. They all want modern versions of a '68 Deville... huge, covered in chrome, and able to absorb all the potholes in their roads with no fuss.

You fellers are talking plum horse sense!

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

But Cadillac has certainly lost a lot of focus presently.
Compared to the start of the so-called Renaissance, just a few years ago, there was a solid direction that Cadillac was heading towards.

CTS, STS, XLR anchored the lineup. THey were decent 1st generation cars. SOme didn't sell as well as expected. So, what would a normal company do? They would improve on the existing car and pop out a 2nd generation.
What did Cadillac do? Improve on 1 model... and kill the other 2.

Now Cadillac is getting a FWD CUV that can only hope to perform 80% as well as the out-going SRX.
Cadillac's attempt at a small luxury car failed miserably in Europe.
Cadillac still sells its cars next to Chevy, but manages true standalone dealers in China.
And Cadillac's lineup is complete disaster. Who knows what is what nowadays??

And they still don't have a competent compact sports sedan.
They don't have a car that competes in the high end mid-size market -- only the low and mid-range mid-size market.
They don't have a car that compete in the low-to-high end full-size market.
They are giving up on the roadster market.

Not only shoudl Cadillac pull out of Europe... they're borderline of just being shut down. THey're not a relevant brand!

Partner, why can't you see that them European critters nor the Americans who think like them will EVER like or want the Euro wannabe Caddys? They didn't want no Cimmarons, no Allantes, no downsized big Caddys, no Cateras, no XLRs, no BLSs, and no CTS neither. That ain't NEVER gonna change partner, so Caddy is simply throwin' good green away tryin' to get the critters. Green that could be spent on bulding and improving REAL Caddys.

[Exploder]

^I knew he would come back...

Europeans (and Americans for that matter) didn't want Cimmarons, Allantes or Cateras because they were were CRAP, and today's Caddies although much improved, still don't sell because they're not as good as the competition.

It has (almost) nothing to do with the fact that they were/are Cadillacs.

[DMD]

I will acknowledge that the Allante and Cimmaron were inferior. I am not so willing to say that about the Catera. It was an Opel car. Opel's being built in Germany that specifically cater to the sportier European driving taste. The only gripe that you might be able to make about that car was that it was too close in looks to the Opel that was for sale in Germany and in other European countries at the time. You might also make a claim that the price of the Catera didn't justify whatever the car was selling for beacuase there wasn't enough differentiation between the Cadillac and Opel cars. I do remember this about the Catera and that is, the Catera was slightly underpowered compared to much of its Eurpoean competition. And as you had stated above the Catera came in a gas only version. Just keep in mind that about 50% of the cars sold in the UK and elsewhere in Europe are gas powered. That is still a large number of vehicles, but I'll acknowledge on this point that perhaps the Catera should have offered a diesel powerplant as well as the gas.

When you look at the big picture of the cars Cadillac has tried for the most part in Europe with the exception of the V8 SRX, and the V8 STS versions and the 300hp DTS performance version over the last 10-15 years. Cadillacs are as a general rule underpowered. I even read a review when the BLS came out over in Europe that that was/is underpowered as well.


With all that being said I don't know whether I would say that the puny dealership network is not sufficient for the country. Lets look at thefacts as they are.

*The UK has about 70 million people in it. (US has 300 million)


*The UK has an extensive and very inexpensive railway system that well over the majority of the poulation uses every single day. (The US has spotty railways that can't be justified for very long trips for most people because the distances between places in the US are vast.) From London, England to Edinborough, Scotland is much closer than NY to LA. You go to LA from NYC on Amtrack your talking a 3 to maybe 3.5 day trip. If you only have a week off for vacation you're not going to be in LA long except more maybe enough time to get a McDonald's lunch at the train terminal before you have to get back on the train and come back to NYC.

* Now onto the economics of the situation. Cadillacs in general in Europe are in excess of $100,000. This is not the case I believe with the Catera or the CTS no matter how well equipped it was. That being said, what are the sales figures for cars in excess of $100,000 in the US? Whatever they are they are very small. They are also higher if not much higher than they are in the UK. Why is this? Have you seen the taxes they pay on goods and services? You do realize they have socialized medicine which they pay an insane amount of thier personal taxes for? They also pay about $9.00 a gallon for gas, and of that $9.00 sum about 70% of that figure is on the tax on that 1 gallon of gasoline. You also realize that they have a transportation tax on all vehicles going into London everyday. It I believe is roughly $20.00 per vehicle, more for trucks I think over a ceratain tonnage. This measure helps make using a car in the UK that much more of a problem. The city of NY under Mayor Bloomberg a few months back tried to enact the same type of legislation, it failed. I bring up the transportation tax because for those that might justify a car in an area where public transportation is cheap, relaible, and brings you generally to the area you need to go, it discourages people from buying any car Cadillac or tiny Chevy Matiz. (a GM Daewoo built car that gets great mileage)

* Cadillac might be able to skirt some of the taxes in terms of importing their cars from the US and Canada all in an effort to make them more affordable. But even if they were to do that they still would get crushed in taxes because they would have to pay the taxes on salaries and materials coming into the UK.

It is good to see that GM is engineering into their cars a much more sporty ride that is to the liking of the Europeans and many Americans for that matter. Regardless how wonderful GM makes their cars, if the cars aren't priced near the competition (or aren't offering an insane amount of value versus others in the market) and if those same cars aren't offering a great deal of sophistication or ride quality, many in the UK and elsewhere want. Than you are relegated to sell a small number of them. GM is not perfect no one is. GM is in control of some of the factors I listed above, they are not in control of much of the cost of the vehicles and they are not in control of the crazy tax structure that hurts the buying power and the standard of living of the UK people. Granted if they really wanted to they could increase the sales in the UK but not very much when you consider the cost of the vehicles with the taxes involved, even if you had all diesels availablealong with gas and had great cars, what would you be selling in total I would bet it would still be under 20,000 cars a year. The UK for most car makers is a very small market. Its just a fact and you have to accept that.

[sdotjoe]

Originally Posted by OLDSCHOOLGMFAN

Partner, why can't you see that them European critters nor the Americans who think like them will EVER like or want the Euro wannabe Caddys? They didn't want no Cimmarons, no Allantes, no downsized big Caddys, no Cateras, no XLRs, no BLSs, and no CTS neither. That ain't NEVER gonna change partner, so Caddy is simply throwin' good green away tryin' to get the critters. Green that could be spent on bulding and improving REAL Caddys.

Man, this dude cracks me the h*ll up. I swear he has to be messing with us, he cant be serious.

But on the topic, it makes sense for Cadillac to pull out of Europe. All that they're doing right now is damaging the brand. They need to get things taken care of at home before they try to cross the pond.

[baloo]

Originally Posted by DMD

It is good to see that GM is engineering into their cars a much more sporty ride that is to the liking of the Europeans and many Americans for that matter. Regardless how wonderful GM makes their cars, if the cars aren't priced near the competition (or aren't offering an insane amount of value versus others in the market) and if those same cars aren't offering a great deal of sophistication or ride quality, many in the UK and elsewhere want. Than you are relegated to sell a small number of them. GM is not perfect no one is. GM is in control of some of the factors I listed above, they are not in control of much of the cost of the vehicles and they are not in control of the crazy tax structure that hurts the buying power and the standard of living of the UK people. Granted if they really wanted to they could increase the sales in the UK but not very much when you consider the cost of the vehicles with the taxes involved, even if you had all diesels availablealong with gas and had great cars, what would you be selling in total I would bet it would still be under 20,000 cars a year. The UK for most car makers is a very small market. Its just a fact and you have to accept that.

You have to keep in mind that the UK is just a small part of Europe. Even with the taxes, public transport etc. Europe is still a HUGE luxury market. BMW/MB/Audi manage to sell over 2 million cars a year there vs. just ~600k in the US.

[seeg]

It's amazing how much has been spent for Caddy in Europe. Shouldn't at least some of that have gone towards improving the Saab product?

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by sdotjoe

Man, this dude cracks me the h*ll up. I swear he has to be messing with us, he cant be serious.

Trust me, he's serious.

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by Exploder

^I knew he would come back...

Europeans (and Americans for that matter) didn't want Cimmarons, Allantes or Cateras because they were were CRAP, and today's Caddies although much improved, still don't sell because they're not as good as the competition.

It has (almost) nothing to do with the fact that they were/are Cadillacs.

Yeah I came back partner. What of it?


None of that changes the fact that Caddy is STRUGGLING with it's Euro wannabe cars and is a laughing haw haw joke in Europe tryin' to sell those critters cars they DON'T want.

Things ain't much better for Caddy in the good ol' U.S. of A neither.

All a this money, "Art & Science" balderdash and tell me, what do Caddy got to show for it? Euro critters who don't want their Euro wannabes and American critters that like Euro cushy race cars who don't want their Euros wannabes.

Yee-haw, money well spent!

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by sdotjoe

Man, this dude cracks me the h*ll up. I swear he has to be messing with us, he cant be serious.

But on the topic, it makes sense for Cadillac to pull out of Europe. All that they're doing right now is damaging the brand. They need to get things taken care of at home before they try to cross the pond.

I am dang serious partner! In spite of al the haw haw laughing that may go on at my posts, nobody has been able to deny or explain to me why when Caddy was makin' REAL Caddys, it's big, soft cushy models, it wasn't in no trouble and people actually wanted the critters!

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Originally Posted by megeebee

Trust me, he's serious.

Caddy can't be BMW.
Caddy can't be Mercedes.
Caddy can't be Audi.

Your'e dang right I'm serious.