Cadillac SRX as good as Q5?

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by goblue

Wes and Mgescuro, I'm with you on cars, and frankly - if it were 5 or 10 years ago, I'd demand all RWD crossovers as well. However, things have changed. Haldex is incredible. There is a market for RWD cars, but for whatever reason, its just not there for crossovers. It would be foolish for GM in its present state to go after that market.

Where Cadillac is really missing opportunity is by not moving the whole lineup over to VOLTEC ASAP. It's the engineering interpretation of A&S.

Originally Posted by goblue

Yeah, I know exactly what I said.

I'd prefer a slightly less luxurious interior for better drivability. Luxury is a spectrum. Entry level Cadillacs do not need Maybach level interiors at the expense of drivability.

Why don't you point out that Lexus cut corners on drivability. A numb experience costs less than a perfect ride / handling balance.

I really think you fail to recognize that all of this is on a number of spectrums, and when you add them all up, they tend to equal price.
I can respect the idea that Cadillac should pull a "10" on everything, but then you'd have a 80 grand SRX. That won't help GM right now.

And I stick with VOLTEC. The 2 mode is not a long term solution and it makes no sense for anything other than trucks. Parallel hybrids don't make any sense in general anyway. Why a whole VOLTEC lineup makes sense is it elevates the whole brand and makes it known as the new standard. It also solves the platform issues.

I'm with you on most of this.

The "SRX should be RWD" is a tired argument. Getting quite bored with it really. There is already market evidence that suggests RWD does not matter to the crossover market and we have seen the SRX receive high marks for its handling.

I agree that 2-mode is for trucks... that's about it. But I think Voltec needs to be handled delicately. I think Volt-Converj is a practical transition for the technology but I would be cautious in spreading out the 1st generation to too many models. I think I would wait for the second generation Voltec for wider market penetration. ...IMO

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Except they already did that. Cadillac is RWD/AWD sport-luxury to target more European-oriented buyers, and Buick is FWD/AWD comfort-luxury to target the Lexus customers of the world.

Now they're going back on it.

Explain to me how you see Buick and Cadillac differentiated under this new approach.

Let me take a shot at this.

Cadillac competes in a scatter-shot matter with every other luxury make from Lexus to BMW.

Buick competes nearly directly with domestic makes such as Ford and Chrysler. Nobody associates Buick with the luxury segment except GM fanboys.

Nothing has changed.

[zl-1]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Cadillac competes in a scatter-shot matter with every other luxury make from Lexus to BMW.

Buick competes nearly directly with domestic makes such as Ford and Chrysler. Nobody associates Buick with the luxury segment except GM fanboys.

You are, IMHO, correct.

[1G6]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Nobody associates Buick with the luxury segment except GM fanboys.

The Enclave disagrees with you. My "ancient" Lucerne also disagrees.

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Let me take a shot at this.

Cadillac competes in a scatter-shot matter with every other luxury make from Lexus to BMW.

Buick competes nearly directly with domestic makes such as Ford and Chrysler. Nobody associates Buick with the luxury segment except GM fanboys.

Nothing has changed.

So Buick competes with the same customers that Chevy, Saturn and Pontiac go after. Sure.

Buick's target should be Acura, Lincoln, Chrysler, Lexus, Volvo. (Pure Luxury)

Cadillac's target should be Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Infiniti. (Sport Luxury)

Chevrolet's target should be Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, and, the new Saturn(Bread and butter "everyman cars")

Pontiac could target Nissan, Dodge, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Subaru. (Cheap, fun sporty cars)

[Sal Collaziano]

Personally, I'd rather see Cadillac build a RWD SRX and compete with the BMW X5 rather than the Lexus RX350. However, I have a feeling this Crossover is going to sell A LOT. But keep in mind that without the option of leasing, they're going to lose a TON of sales. When comparing how this new SRX sells against the old one, we should only compare the outgoing model's financed vehicles and not those that were leased.

I personally believe that MOST people don't care which wheels power their vehicle. Far, far more than those of us who do. So I think the SRX is going to do well. Just like the Deville/DTS has for decades. The people who buy DeVille's never cared about handling and all-out performance. They were happy that when they hit the gas, it moved with authority. They didn't carve corners and ride up and down on/off ramps at 60mph.

I'm just not sure that THIS particular Crossover needs to be a RWD high performance vehicle. I think it's going to do what it needs to do very well - and people are going to like it for what it is..

[goblue]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

But when you read reviews state that Cadillac's interior is great, but XXX competition does it better, doesn't that just make you wonder why Cadillac couldn't execute better?

I don't expect Maybach level interiors -- and if you're ever been in a Maybach, it can actually be much better for that price, but there are 100s of ways to option one out -- but I expect something that belies the heritage of a brand that used to lead the segment.

Why don't I criticized Lexus for its drivability? Because it's not a cut corner. It's a feature. Lexus is about the isolated ride. It always has been. And after 20 years, its customers want the isolation. It isn't supposed to be a sport sedan/cuv/coupe. It is a luxury sedan/cuv/coupe. And that's the problem with the F-series. Lexus is trying to be something it just wasn't designed to be -- a sports car.


And I think you're slotting Cadillac in a "spectrum" it shouldn't be in.
I think yo'ure exaggerating. I"m asking for better than GM standard plastics and full leather seats. The difference would take a base msrp from $34k to $36k.
Cadillac shouldn't be value pricing anything.


Toyota HSD is now Plugin. It's also the market leader and leads in recognition.
VOltec will still take some time to ramp up.
2Mode Plugin should be more than enough to provide an advanced hybrid for any future cadillacs -- or even SRX.

So GM should use 10 year old technology in Cadillacs when Chevy is getting brand new?

GM needs to keep the price of the SRX competitive to the RX and the rest of the class - at least for now. Toyota put the money into isolation / interior and saved on everything that makes a car handle well. GM put more money into things like that adaptive suspension, class leading AWD, etc and saved a little money on the interior.

If Cadillac could command the level of respect say, MB has - then yes, I would say price it higher than the RX and do both - but that's not appropriate now. If GM were rolling in money, of course I would have supported spending the money on re-engineering Sigma II. Maybe someday.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by 1G6

The Enclave disagrees with you. My "ancient" Lucerne also disagrees.

Enclave targets large SUV customers, i.e. predominatenly domestic owners, and is only priced slightly higher than the similar GMC model.

Lucerne is a classic large domestic sedan, really not much else like it anymore. It's also priced $10K under the 'pseudo-luxury' Lincoln MKS and closer to the Taurus.

New LaCrosse is almost exactly the same price and size as the Toyota Avalon.

Please demonstrate how Buick is positioned as a luxury make, because frankly I don't see it. Buick has a niche selling premium cars, but frankly nobody outside of GM fanboards sees them as a credible alternative to Lexus.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Please demonstrate how Buick is positioned as a luxury make, because frankly I don't see it. Buick has a niche selling premium cars, but frankly nobody outside of GM fanboards sees them as a credible alternative to Lexus.

It isn't currently, and that is the problem.

The only reason the Lacrosse isn't priced against the ES/TL market, which from what I've seen it could quite easily compete with in terms of size/features/styling/performance, instead of the Avalon/Accord market is because the Cadillac CTS is priced too low for its size/brand. It should be priced (and equipped using the STS-V/SLS feature set) against the 6-cylinder 5-series models, not the 3-series and by extension the midsized FWD luxury cars.

And the only reason Cadillac cars are priced so low is to compete with Lincoln, lower-end Lexus, and Acuras in the "near-luxury" market because, as you said, Buick is not seen/priced as a luxury brand and therefore is not competing with them.

And the only reason Buick isn't allowed to even try and compete in that market is because Cadillac is, and you simply can't have a Buick that costs as much as a similar sized Cadillac.

So to me it looks like they are basically trapped in a cycle of too cheap, in price and/or content, products from both brands. This then continually reinforces the idea that Cadillac is on par with Acura/lower-end Lexus models, and a step behind M-B/BMW, and that Buick is on the same level as Hyundai/Chevy instead of the "near luxury" VW to Lexus range it should be in.

And if that's all people expect, then that's all they will get... hence the SRX dropping from ~$45-60k to ~$35-50k class (nevermind the FWD/RWD aspect) and the STS/DTS replacement being more DTS than STS in nature (much less SLS/STS-V). And honestly, with the CTS as the only Sigma II based car, and the Alpha projects in limbo... I would not be shocked if there is a design well underway for an Epsilon-based Cadillac to replace the CTS and go after the Lexus ES (since as we all know FWD outsells RWD )

[Sal Collaziano]

The Enclave is a very luxurious mid-size SUV. It's very Lexus-like besides design - which is much better than Lexus (in my opinion). It's not as refined but it's "very good". As far as I'm concerned, good enough for Buick for now...

The Lucerne is a decent large domestic sedan - but not very luxurious. I think it came around at a time when Buick wasn't 100% sure which direction it was going in. I think if Buick made another full-size luxury sedan today, it would be much closer to a Lexus ES350. No, Buick cannot build a Lexus LS460 at this time.

Since Buick isn't building another full-size luxury sedan, the LaCrosse is it - and I think they're going to succeed in building a "better" Lexus ES. It may not be as refined as a Lexus - but there will be more pluses than minuses.

At this point in time, we can only see and feel ONE Buick that's the "new" Buick - the Enclave. And it IS very luxurious and certainly aimed at Lexus. I'm confident that the LaCrosse will be every bit as luxurious, if not more so - as well as every other offering Buick releases from this point on...

Too bad Buick can't being the Park Avenue over here. It would be the nicest full-size domestic luxury car available...

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Enclave targets large SUV customers, i.e. predominatenly domestic owners, and is only priced slightly higher than the similar GMC model.

Lucerne is a classic large domestic sedan, really not much else like it anymore. It's also priced $10K under the 'pseudo-luxury' Lincoln MKS and closer to the Taurus.

New LaCrosse is almost exactly the same price and size as the Toyota Avalon.

Please demonstrate how Buick is positioned as a luxury make, because frankly I don't see it. Buick has a niche selling premium cars, but frankly nobody outside of GM fanboards sees them as a credible alternative to Lexus.

[JBsZ06]

I believe the q5 is a better vehicle...and I really like the new SRX ..

JMO

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by CUtiger08

It isn't currently, and that is the problem.

The only reason the Lacrosse isn't priced against the ES/TL market, which from what I've seen it could quite easily compete with in terms of size/features/styling/performance, instead of the Avalon/Accord market is because the Cadillac CTS is priced too low for its size/brand. It should be priced (and equipped using the STS-V/SLS feature set) against the 6-cylinder 5-series models, not the 3-series and by extension the midsized FWD luxury cars.

Problem is not that long ago Buick was selling $18K Centuries. If they jack the LaCrosse up into the $32-35K price range, *bam* the traditional buyer group is going to walk down to Ford/Chrysler/Toyota. GM has nothing else to offer these people.

Furthermore, and I can't emphasis this enough, Buick has absolutely no luxury cred outside of GM homeboys. (These posts mentioning Buick in the same breath as Acura or Volvo are seriously lol-worthy.) I even would say barely have any "premium car" cred, they're sales have been steeply declining for years, and they're largely perceived as just another GM division (for good reason).

As has been proven time and again, GM can't just arbitrarily move brands around like pieces on a chessboard. It takes decades of well-executed models and brand management to move a brand up in stature. (Which is something GM has not been able to do successfully.) Anyway, I think the "mid-level brand" strategy GM is executing is a realistic tact. A generation of well-executed, successful cars might get them there eventually, but not now.

[CUtiger08]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Problem is not that long ago Buick was selling $18K Centuries. If they jack the LaCrosse up into the $32-35K price range, *bam* the traditional buyer group is going to walk down to Ford/Chrysler/Toyota. GM has nothing else to offer these people.

Furthermore, and I can't emphasis this enough, Buick has absolutely no luxury cred outside of GM homeboys. (These posts mentioning Buick in the same breath as Acura or Volvo are seriously lol-worthy.) I even would say barely have any "premium car" cred, they're sales have been steeply declining for years, and they're largely perceived as just another GM division (for good reason).

As has been proven time and again, GM can't just arbitrarily move brands around like pieces on a chessboard. It takes decades of well-executed models and brand management to move a brand up in stature. (Which is something GM has not been able to do successfully.) Anyway, I think the "mid-level brand" strategy GM is executing is a realistic tact. A generation of well-executed, successful cars might get them there eventually, but not now.

Of course they can't do it overnight... but if they had been moving/continued to move Cadillac and Buick up it would not be a sudden overnight thing. The CTS should have been marching upward in price over time, along with the Lacrosse, so that they could be properly priced in the near future if not already. But now Cadillac is actively moving down-market instead of up-market with the SRX, and likely the XTS,... completely reversing what little good moves they had done over the last model cycle.

And GM's current Buick strategy is not "mid-level" based on the Lacrosse pricing... it's the same as the Toyota Avalon and not even 10% more than the outdated and bargain basement Kia Amanti (and less than the far smaller Passat/Maxima or the similar sized Genesis)... or in other words exactly where Chevy ought to be. And if Buick is going to be the same cost as Chevy in the US, just kill it in the US to save on marketing and make the Lacrosse an Impala.

Also, I'm anything but a GM homeboy... I just think that what little good brand image Buick does have left should not be wasted selling cars that are on the same level as Kia, and Cadillac can do better than Acura as a primary rival.

[emh]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Furthermore, and I can't emphasis this enough, Buick has absolutely no luxury cred outside of GM homeboys. (These posts mentioning Buick in the same breath as Acura or Volvo are seriously lol-worthy.) I even would say barely have any "premium car" cred, they're sales have been steeply declining for years, and they're largely perceived as just another GM division (for good reason).

As has been proven time and again, GM can't just arbitrarily move brands around like pieces on a chessboard. It takes decades of well-executed models and brand management to move a brand up in stature. (Which is something GM has not been able to do successfully.) Anyway, I think the "mid-level brand" strategy GM is executing is a realistic tact. A generation of well-executed, successful cars might get them there eventually, but not now.

I think that's what GM is trying to do -- build up the reputation with the vehicles Buick is launching now. Especially with input from the Chinese market and designers, the products seem up to the task. As you say, it will take time for the market to acknowledge that.

There are, however, anecdotal evidence already of this strategy having the chance to succeed. I see plenty of Enclaves driven by middle-aged people even in the notoriously import-biased San Francisco Bay Area. One of my neighbors replaced their RX with an Enclave (which shares the garage with an ES). They aren't exactly young, but it does show that Buick can appeal to at least the older Lexus buyers for a start.

[mkwelbornjr]

So the SRX has a manual tilt wheel and a power telescope? I thought GM learned their lesson on this last time. Why not make it all power/tilt/telescope? Or is the button on the right of the column for the pedals? Either way it needs power tilt/telescope.