Cadillac SRX as good as Q5?

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Seriously....
People on GMI can't seem to answer that one...

Oh, well... it HAS been answered.

"We'll just TUNE them differently."

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by wescoent

So Cadillac should go after Lexus... FINE, but then what's the point of Buick?

Why did I know somebody was going to say that ....... its easy. Split the targets up, develop the situation, and adjust for affect. And that's not just in terms of Lexus - who's market segmentation / product match is totally obsolete anyway.

As always its about the buyer ( past, present, and future ) not the car per se.

Damn shame isn't it, that Lincoln won't have anything like this for a while

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Why did I know somebody was going to say that ....... its easy. Split the targets up, develop the situation, and adjust for affect. And that's not just in terms of Lexus - who's market segmentation / product match is totally obsolete anyway.

As always its about the buyer ( past, present, and future ) not the car per se.

Damn shame isn't it, that Lincoln won't have anything like this for a while

Except they already did that. Cadillac is RWD/AWD sport-luxury to target more European-oriented buyers, and Buick is FWD/AWD comfort-luxury to target the Lexus customers of the world.

Now they're going back on it.

Explain to me how you see Buick and Cadillac differentiated under this new approach.

Lincoln has had something like this for a few years now...

[goblue]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Except they already did that. Cadillac is RWD/AWD sport-luxury to target more European-oriented buyers, and Buick is FWD/AWD comfort-luxury to target the Lexus customers of the world.

Now they're going back on it.

Explain to me how you see Buick and Cadillac differentiated under this new approach.

Cadillac is A&S and Buick is smooth curves with 1960s heritage cues.

If we're talking about cars - I completely agree with what you and mgescuro are saying. SUVs are different.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Now they're going back on it.

Pretty funny doncha' think that a Ford person would be talkin' this way about 'going back on it'.

We aren't talking about Ford suppliers or Navistar or Firestone here, are we ?

Ford's been 'backing up on it' since the 1990s - seems at times to be the only gear they got - or that they can find.

Two times under Trotman, three times under Bill, ...... and now the latest and greatest........ Way Forward REV.3.0.0.1 subject to possible FURTHER revision of course.

I left out Nasser gee, how would you characterize that 'happy time' for brand management ........ 'ground opening up - and falling in' ???.

Oh, and ah, are you familiar with the names ' Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Volvo ?

Mercury ring a bell ?????

Merkur ???

Don't you worry wescoent, going forward, Cadillac will never be mismanaged like Lincoln or Mercury - or Lincoln Mercury count on it - that you can take to your Bank.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by goblue

Cadillac is A&S and Buick is smooth curves with 1960s heritage cues.

If we're talking about cars - I completely agree with what you and mgescuro are saying. SUVs are different.

So same product, different wrapper? Haven't we seen this movie before?

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Pretty funny doncha' think that a Ford person would be talkin' this way about 'going back'.

Doesn't make it any less stupid. GM can have two luxury brands, if they are adequately differentiated in target and price, which is CLEARLY not going to be the case here.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by goblue

Cadillac is A&S and Buick is smooth curves with 1960s heritage cues.

And Art & Science is sharp edges with 1960's heritage cues.
Same car... different wrapper... Same ol' storyline.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Don't you worry wescoent, Cadillac will never be mismanaged like Lincoln or Mercury - or Lincoln Mercury count on it

Funny... it seems Cadillac is getting right back in line, right behind the revitalization plan Ford prescribed for Lincoln years ago.

Who's following the leader now?

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by wescoent

So same product, different wrapper? Haven't we seen this movie before?



Doesn't make it any less stupid. GM can have two luxury brands, if they are adequately differentiated in target and price, which is CLEARLY not going to be the case here.

The Buick buyer and Cadillac buyer are miles apart. I think you guys are really reaching on this one.

I find none of Buicks appealing (to my taste). I admit that the new Buicks are very well-designed and good-looking (Enclave/Lacrosse), but they are just not something I would ever want to drive.

They are two very different luxury markets. The Cadillac brand is a luxury brand. Buick is more of a subtle, conservative, budget-minded, sub-luxury brand. I've driven several current Buicks and they are the exact opposite of what I look for in a car. The suspensions are extremely soft. Steering feel is mushy. The vehicle dynamics are actually quite strange.

So vehicle dynamics is one thing. Also the performance, price, amenities, gadgets and styling are significantly different between brands. Basically everything is different. There is very little overlap between the two brands as it is now.

Auto-buyers do NOT cross-shop Buick and Cadillac.

Also, this notion that every one of GM's brands needs to be similar to some other competing brand is ridiculous in my opinion. Cadillac is not like Lexus. Cadillac is not like BMW. Same for Buick. Both brands have their own identity. Seeing that the two brands (both of which are high-margin brands) have almost no overlap, why can't they coexist under the same company?

[PistonsFan]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Funny... it seems Cadillac is getting right back in line, right behind the revitalization plan Ford prescribed for Lincoln years ago.

Who's following the leader now?

Please.

Most people don't even know that Lincoln and Mercury still exist. They have become quite irrelevant.

Cadillac is doin' just fine.

Car of the year (CTS), concept of the year (Converj)... doin' just fine.

[AndrewGS]

Originally Posted by PistonsFan

Cadillac is doin' just fine.

Car of the year (CTS), concept of the year (Converj)... doin' just fine.

No flagship sedan, no modern reputation... doin' just fine?

They got one car 95% right, the CTS. So that's why Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, Land Rover and Infniti buyers should flock?

Cadillac needs a TRUE luxury lineup that has some continuity. Compact through full-size cars in sedan, coupe and convertible variants, a roadster and a pair of crossovers, all on the same high-end, RWD/AWD platform.

Look, I like the '93-'03 STS/ETC as well as the '00-'05 DeVille and the current Escalade Platinum, but make no mistake, they aren't where Cadillac should be. You have to go way back to find a real Cadillac. The competition is far from perfect, but at least they know their market.

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Except they already did that. Cadillac is RWD/AWD sport-luxury to target more European-oriented buyers, and Buick is FWD/AWD comfort-luxury to target the Lexus customers of the world.

Now they're going back on it.

Explain to me how you see Buick and Cadillac differentiated under this new approach.

Lincoln has had something like this for a few years now...

ATS 170" Sub-Compact
Base 25k 1.8L I4 @ 150hp RWD
Sport 30k 2.0L I4 Turbo @ 240hp RWD/AWD
V 35 k 3.0L V6 @ 340hp AWD

BTS 182" Compact
Base 30k 2.0L I4 Turbo @ 240hp RWD
Sport 40k 3.0L V6 Turbo @ 330hp RWD/AWD
V 50k 4.0L V8 @ 430hp AWD

CTS 194" Mid Size
Base 40k 3.0L V6 @ 330hp RWD
Sport 55k 4.0L V8 @ 420hp RWD/AWD
V 70k 5.0L V10 @ 520hp AWD

DTS 206" Full Size
55k 4.0L V8 @ 420hp RWD
75k 5.0L V10 @ 510hp RWD/AWD
95k 6.0L V12 Turbo @ 610hp AWD

FTS 218" Limosine
75k 5.0L V10 Turbo @ 510hp RWD
100k 6.0L V12 Turbo @ 600hp RWD/AWD
125k 8.0L V16 Turbo @ 700hp AWD

and for Buick...

Excelle Sub-Compact 168"
20k 1.8L I4 @ 130hp FWD
24k 2.5L I4 @ 190hp FWD
28k 2.5L I4 Hybrid @ 240hp FWD

Astra Compact 179"
24k 2.5L I4 @ 190hp FWD
32k 3.0L V6 @ 250hp FWD
40k 3.0L V6 Hybrid @ 300hp FWD/AWD

Regal Mid Size 190"
32k 3.0L V6 @ 250hp FWD
44k 3.5L V6 @ 310hp FWD/AWD
56k 3.5L V6 Hybrid @ 360hp AWD

LaCrosse Full Size 201"
44k 3.5L V6 @ 310hp FWD/AWD
60k 4.0L V8 @ 370hp AWD
76k 4.0L V8 Hybird @ 420hp AWD

Apply cross overs, coupes and convertibles where desired.

Chevrolet and Buick will have a relationship like that of Ford/Lincoln and VW/Audi.
Where Impala=Lacrosse, Malibu=Regal, Cruze=Astra, Viva=Excelle

Pontiac could exist as the lesser brand to be paired with Caddy.
Where Bonneville=DTS, Grand Prix=CTS, Grand Am=BTS, Lemans=ATS
(FTS would be Caddy only)

[goblue]

Originally Posted by wescoent

So same product, different wrapper? Haven't we seen this movie before?

Doesn't make it any less stupid. GM can have two luxury brands, if they are adequately differentiated in target and price, which is CLEARLY not going to be the case here.

We actually have seen this movie before - its called platform sharing. What you're describing is badge engineering - which is alive and well at Ford - and why Mercury is destined to go the way of Pontiac - which may have been the worst badge engineering offender of all time. Unless you count trucks.

A&S and Buick's design language are antithecal. It's why dumping Saab made sense, it was too close to Cadillac - both vying for the future. Buick is based on the past, A&S is an interpretation of the future - as opposed to Lincoln, which is based on Star Trek.

Wes and Mgescuro, I'm with you on cars, and frankly - if it were 5 or 10 years ago, I'd demand all RWD crossovers as well. However, things have changed. Haldex is incredible. There is a market for RWD cars, but for whatever reason, its just not there for crossovers. It would be foolish for GM in its present state to go after that market.

Where Cadillac is really missing opportunity is by not moving the whole lineup over to VOLTEC ASAP. It's the engineering interpretation of A&S.

[wescoent]

We actually have seen this movie before - its called platform sharing. What you're describing is badge engineering - which is alive and well at Ford - and why Mercury is destined to go the way of Pontiac - which may have been the worst badge engineering offender of all time. Unless you count trucks.

Which is actually why it won't go the way of Pontiac, because the break-even sales point is so low, due to the very low cost of "designing" the models.

A&S and Buick's design language are antithecal. It's why dumping Saab made sense, it was too close to Cadillac - both vying for the future. Buick is based on the past, A&S is an interpretation of the future - as opposed to Lincoln, which is based on Star Trek.

Wes and Mgescuro, I'm with you on cars, and frankly - if it were 5 or 10 years ago, I'd demand all RWD crossovers as well. However, things have changed. Haldex is incredible. There is a market for RWD cars, but for whatever reason, its just not there for crossovers. It would be foolish for GM in its present state to go after that market.

Where Cadillac is really missing opportunity is by not moving the whole lineup over to VOLTEC ASAP. It's the engineering interpretation of A&S.

Dumping Saab made sense.

So if there's no market for RWD crossovers, then why not concentrate on making Buick's FWD/AWD crossovers the BEST in the business, and leave Cadillac to more prestigious vehicles?

The Buick-Cadillac combo could be a HUGE asset to both brand's equity, yet, GM seems happy to pit them against one another instead of fighting the market as a TEAM. Leave 'mainstream luxury' to Buick, and leave 'prestige luxury' to Cadillac.

There's nothing WRONG with mainstream luxury... it's a lucrative market, but why does GM need TWO brands to pursue it?!!!

[1G6]

If you're asking the Cadillac dealers to build standalone stores, you damn well better give them something to sell.