Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe - Page 2

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Thread: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

  1. #16
    GMI Staff Member Premium Member nadepalma's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Perian View Post
    Amen. Someone (Ms. Docherty) gets it.

    Now act. There is no time to waste.
    Indeed, no time to waste is right. Since volume luxury sales in world markets like Europe and China are/will be driven heavily by B/C-segment offerings, you could arguably say that Caddy needed such a product more than the ATS (though, obviously, that's not necessarily true in the US market, where the ATS is most needed).
    Quote Originally Posted by dslay04 View Post
    This sub-ATS must have the following:
    - Diesels
    - Diesels
    - 3 Door model
    - 5 Door model/Wagon
    - Diesels

    An AllRoad-like Sub-ATS wagon would be smart.
    For success in Europe? Yes, absolutely. To which I would add, upscale styling, no-excuses-interior, and (assuming they base it on a FWD/AWD platform) a design that "masks" it's FWD-based underpinnings. Audi and Mercedes have done this relatively well with products like the A3/A4 and A-Class/B-Class (and the new CLA), so Caddy should aim to do the same.

    As for China, I think that diesels are good, but they'll alslo need strong turbo 4 cylinders (most likely something based on the new 1.6T they've debuted already) and it will need Buick-like interior noise levels.

    If they were to go so far as offer such a product in the US market they'll need (in my opinion) to offer the product with AWD, have it priced accordingly so as to not create too much overlap with the ATS, make it fun to drive, and make it convincing for luxury buyers. Other GM products like the Verano are solid and convincing luxury/near-luxury vehicles. They'll need to offer something head and shoulders above it to make it stand out in comparison to corporate-cousins like the Verano. Furthermore, while some folks have detracted the Verano for some interior materials or powertrain issues, a future sub-ATS vehicle can't have any kind of similar faults. In fact, one good way to think about it is, any future sub-ATS would have to pick cup where the Verano GS leaves off.
    "La vita come un albero di Natale..c' sempre qualcuno che ti rompe le palle!"

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    They don't have anything suitable at this point. I could see an AWD Sonic type vehicle that could work, but it would need to be something that is unique to Europe, not a rebadged Opel. Cadillac should not worry too much about that until they have success and a smaller vehicle is economically feasible to develop and sell there.
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Whatever you do Cadillac please refrain from ever bringing that sub ATS car here to the US market. Also am I the only one thinking that Saab could have definitely provided GM the EU market luxury car exposure that GM so desperately needs?

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Baseline packaging for Sub-ATS Zydzik style

    $26,500-$32,000 w/ destination
    4 engines to start with
    1.6 SIDI turbo Eco-tech (201Hp - 229Lb ft)
    1.6 turbo diesel (136Hp - 236Lb ft)
    2.0 CDTI Bi-turbo (193Hp - 300Lb ft)
    1.8L or 2.0 Non Turbo gas engine TBD
    24-33 City, 37-49 MPG Range
    2900 to 3050 Lbs
    0-60: 6.7 to 9.9 estimate

    AWD as an option
    Three equipment ranges for 1st model year
    Standard, Sport, Premium (w/ a potential for an OPC style V series)
    Leatherette std, Leather as an option on Sport and Premium.
    Heated/Ventilated Seats optional on all ranges, Optional LSD or TCS to cope with FWD torque steer
    Upgraded sound system, USB connectivity, CUE, 16",17"&18" Rims, Suspension upgrade(z51 syle), Multiple color palette Interiors
    All above equipment optional on Sport/Standard on Premium.

    Three body styles: 4dr sedan, 5 door hatch, 3 door hatch
    6 speed manual, 6spd auto, 8spd Auto
    AWD system (Haldex like w/ torque vectoring)

    V-Series Model (Opel OPC/Golf R style on steroids) will start @ $39,500-$44,000
    Equipment:
    AWD, MRC, 19" rims,
    2.0 Turbo petrol (310Hp @ 5500 RPM, 325Lb ft @ 1500 RPM)
    premium sport buckets w/ avail. racing seats
    LED light pipes in rear and LED vertical Eyelids, Auto start w/ app for cell phone,
    7 spd manual, 8spd auto, CUE, Available ultra suede package, Heated/Ventilated seats Front&Rear
    Available Heated Steering Wheel w/ ultra suede package, Sirius XM, Bose/Equivalent sound with a 8" sub in the trunk/hatch area.
    Interior trims (Std Interior all Leather, Multiple color schemes/contrast, Suede/Leather optional) Flat-bottom steering wheel
    0-60: 5.0 to 5.5 range (This is a compact vehicle sub 5 seconds could be possible but the above is how i see it playing out)
    165MPH top speed
    1/4 Mile 13.10 @ 111MPH

    All of the above is what I would do

    Note: Pricing is how I see it being in America I do not know the cost associated with autos in Europe if anyone could shed some light please do.

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    This is why I thought it was dumb to call it the ATS. How do you slot under that? Call it the Sub ATS?

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by steve333 View Post
    This is why I thought it was dumb to call it the ATS. How do you slot under that? Call it the Sub ATS?
    How about calling it the amazingly iconic name " Cimarron "? Surely the negative connotations for such an iconic heritage nameplate are mainly contained within the US?

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Of course, what she says is true. It's been talked about for years already.

    The big question is: What is this smaller than ATS product? Is it something based off of Delta or Gamma? Is it based off of a new smaller than Alpha RWD architecture?
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    I wish Cadillac would do a sporty RWD version of the "larger" Delta platform (Astra GTC, Cascada), available in 3/4/5-door, coupe, convertible and wagon version with a 2.0 CDTI BiTurbo with eTurbo (no more turbo lag) and a 7MT/8DSG for under €30,000.

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    I could see a luxury version of the Code 130r being developed. It seems to be already downsized to the range Susan Docherty is alluding to.

    Now what would a Cadillac-ized 4-door 130r look like?

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by steve333 View Post
    This is why I thought it was dumb to call it the ATS. How do you slot under that? Call it the Sub ATS?

    I guess you have the ATS II.
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovetonsils View Post
    I guess you have the ATS II.
    ATS--, Moody's Style. Currently very common in Europe.

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    GMI Staff Member Premium Member nadepalma's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by steve333 View Post
    This is why I thought it was dumb to call it the ATS. How do you slot under that? Call it the Sub ATS?
    Amen! I've said the same thing dozens of times before the ATS was officially launched. If you hope to create any kind of rationality to your product nomenclature, you have to consider future offerings and niche products - like a smaller, entry-level/C-segment-sized product for world markets This is especially true of Cadillac since it hopes to grow it's range and increase volume world-wide. To ignore this kind of name-rationality may mean you kind of paint yourself into the corner on the types of names you can use. For that reason, I think the ATS should have been the BTS (or even the rumored BT3 for awhile) or whatever.

    So if they were to add a new entry-level product, what do you do name-wise and what do you call it?

    One way to possibly do it is to take a page out of BMW's playbook. We know that the next 1-Series will be FWD/AWD and share a lot with Mini's range. We also know that the current 1-Series is very popular with enthusiasts and BMW wants to keep the range around. So right around the time that the new FWD/AWD 1-Series debuts, the current 1-Series will become the 2-Series. Whether the 2-Series introduction coincides with an all-new product or just a substantial update isn't known, but it is possible to supplant one for the other in the minds of consumers.

    Could GM do the same thing? If this product is a few years off, maybe we see the current ATS get a substantial redesign and be rechristened the BTS just as the new, smaller entry-level Caddy is slotted beneath it and assumes the ATS moniker?

    Odder things have happened I suppose.
    "La vita come un albero di Natale..c' sempre qualcuno che ti rompe le palle!"

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    GMI Staff Member Premium Member nadepalma's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Z284ever View Post
    Of course, what she says is true. It's been talked about for years already.

    The big question is: What is this smaller than ATS product? Is it something based off of Delta or Gamma? Is it based off of a new smaller than Alpha RWD architecture?
    If this was a few years ago, and Kappa was still around, I'd say RWD and something the size of a C-segment product.

    Today, with CAFE looming large in the eyes of regulators and the cost of development needing to be stretched, I'd guess it would be either Delta or Gamma based. Unless GM figures out a way to make a cheap, flexible small RWD platform that can be shared with other products (like the Code 130R, smaller than SRX crossover, etc) I'd almost bet on it being based on a FWD platform.

    In my opinion, it would have to be a C-segment product. The reason being that you'd have to be careful about moving too far downmarket too quickly and give your customers a chance to "change" what they'll accept as a Cadillac product. So for example, a C-segment/Delta based Caddy may not be that far of a stretch in the minds of consumers, but perhaps a B-segment/Gamma-based product arguably would. In 10 years, if the C-Segment product is successful, then perhaps a B-segment product would make sense to compliment it's larger stable-mate, but going to far down market too fast could harm the brand's perception.

    What's more, as much as most hard-core enthusiasts may hate the idea of a FWD/AWD product at the bottom of the range, it seems as though "everyone" is doing this. A few years back, it was only brands like Audi, Saab, and Volvo that were doing it world-wide. Yes, there was the A-Class/B-Class in Europe, but that wasn't getting sold in markets like the US or China. Now, however, not only is Mercedes expanding into this niche, but so is BMW with their next-gen 1-Series. If that's the case, should Caddy be shunned for following suit?
    Last edited by nadepalma; 02-25-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    Whatever you do Cadillac please refrain from ever bringing that sub ATS car here to the US market.
    Why? If you build an exceptional product it should have universal appeal.

    Small is the new big.

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    Re: Cadillac May Need Sub-ATS Model For Success In Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Toto View Post
    PLUS Cadillac dealerships (not this Opel/Renault+Chevrolet+Hyundai/KIA+Corvette/Camaro+Ford Mustang+Chrysler+Jeep+Cadillac thing on 100m in no man's land).
    What about left-hand-drive? All Cadillacs sold in Europe must be available in RHD and LHD.
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