Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 29 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 429

Thread: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

  1. #1
    GMI Camaro Forum Moderator Premium Member Z284ever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chicagoland
    Posts
    5,341
    Thanks
    83
    Thanked 738 Times in 364 Posts

    Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Alpha: Field Of Broken Dreams?
    Can Alpha deliver on the promise?
    www.GMInsideNews.com
    May 17, 2011
    By: Charlie Philippou, Nick Saporito


    It seems no rear-wheel drive program at General Motors goes without a soap opera's fill of drama. The Zeta program has been the source of constant back-and-forth, both publicly and privately. Hopes have been set high that the upcoming Alpha program would be a breath of drama-free air for GM rear-wheel drive, but GMI is hearing that drama and problem-free is furthest from the truth with regards to the coveted Alpha program.

    Alpha's roots go back all the way to late 2004. It was generally inspired by the Torana concept car. At the time, the theoretical platform was loosely coined Kappa II, Kappa being the platform that underpinned the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters. The original plan was to make Alpha a true enthusiast's platform with perfect weight distribution, devoid of an excess of weight to distribute. Holden was all for developing such an architecture for a modern day Torana. At GM North America some saw this as a natural architecture for a reborn Camaro. Bob Lutz dreamed of creating a whole family of sporty, great handling, small-RWD cars for Pontiac.

    And then came the first problem for the soon-to-be Alpha program. Not enough executives at GM were signing up with the program to make it's near $1 Billion price tag justifiable. Several vehicle line executives at GM North America wanted no part of the new platform, including Cadillac and executives' overall sentiment against 'premium small cars.' So internal politics, lack of interest and scarce funding put "Kappa 2" to sleep for a while.

    A couple of years later Cadillac became interested in the program and signed on. It was at that point in 2007 that the platform was beginning to be referred to internally as Alpha and real development began.

    However as Cadillac became involved with the Alpha program, a sense of deja vu came with it. Much like Cadillac's initial involvement with the Sigma platform, Cadillac had a long wish-list for the new Alpha platform. This long list quickly turned a light, sporty platform on it's head, including stops on development several times over the last few years.

    Initially Alpha was going to be a four-cylinder only chassis for small premium cars, so naturally development focused on optimizing the Alpha platform for four-cylinder mills in a very light package. Well, Cadillac's first condition was that Alpha be re-engineered to package a naturally aspirated V-6 engine - and that was non-negotiable. This about-face on engine selection would become the first of at least two engine requests that led to a re-engineering of the Alpha chassis to accommodate the new requirements. More changes (read: more mass and cost) were required for the addition of all-wheel drive.

    What started out as a great handling, small RWD program, began it's mission creep from being very focused to being all things to all people. And as it evolved, certain "hard-points" from previous development were locked in, even though the base program had transformed itself. For example, Alpha was designed with a very sophisticated multi-link front suspension with near perfect geometry for the car as it was developed at that point. That geometry was "locked in". As the car grew and became heavier with more features and content, that original geometry was no longer optimal. Our sources tell us that GM is now attempting to mask this sub-optimal geometry with chassis tuning rather than doing the right thing and actually fix it.

    According to sources familiar with the Alpha program both internally at GM and the supplier level, GM has made several other additions to the requirement list of Alpha beyond engines. Among the additions were: a new electronics system and aerodynamic shutters (similar to the Volt).

    Each addition has caused another issue to engineer around, thus causing the Alpha program to exceed GM's mass requirements for the car by nearly 500-pounds. It is unclear how heavy Alpha products will be, but every independent Alpha source GMI has communicated with has indicated that the final curb weight could push 4,000-pounds unless GM puts the program on a mass reduction plan before launch.

    Another issue the Alpha program has been strapped with is the addition of Alpha+ about halfway through development. The Alpha+ chassis is a larger variant of Alpha, intended for use with the next-generation Cadillac CTS. Naturally, Cadillac has another list of requirements for Alpha+, including the need to accommodate twin-turbo V-6 engines. This has added another layer of complexity to the Alpha program, driving up both costs and mass.

    Recently GMI has spoken with sources--both internal and supplier--that are working on the Alpha program. According to those sources the Alpha program has been a near constant stream of drama and problems for GM, all of which were compounded by the company's June 2009 bankruptcy. Even today, as the program nears its final stages of development, problems are still being worked out of the Alpha cars.

    GM is now struggling to reduce Alpha's mass by a quarter-ton. One source indicated that GM is willing to throw all sorts of new composite technologies at the body, structure and powertrain to achieve that goal. Those materials are being thrown at both the Cadillac Alpha cars and the sixth-generation Camaro.

    At last report the Cadillac ATS is still slated to launch in mid to late 2012 as a 2013 model-year vehicle.
    Last edited by nsap; 05-17-2011 at 08:41 AM.
    Pony Car: an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image and an available V8.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC DarkKnight67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Fairfax, VA.
    Posts
    417
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts
    My Ride
    2013 Cadillac XTS4 - White Dia

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    I am hopeful that this platform will demonstrate that new GM can build a car (or series of cars) which appeal to today's drivers. However, this article is a little troublesome with all of the changes and requirements being heaped upon little Alpha.

    Please, GM, fix it and make it a world beater not an also ran.
    DarkKnight67
    2013 XTS4 Platinum
    2012 SRX
    2008 Corvette coupe

    "Why do you drive a Cadillac?" someone asked me the other day.
    "Because you don't have the guts to!"

    My Past Rides - couldn't even come close to all the cars my Dad has had:
    '06, '08, '10 STS
    '04 CTS
    '02 Envoy
    '01 Aurora
    '97 LSS
    '94 Cutlass Supreme
    '90 Z24 Coupe

    Future rides:
    C7 or ZL1 or CTS-V? Decisions, decisions.

  4. #3
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 Darc Requiem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    1,938
    Thanks
    84
    Thanked 25 Times in 8 Posts
    My Ride
    2010 Taurus SHO White

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Okay, now I'm worried about weight again. Seriously 4000lbs. I hope they are successful with the 500lb weight reduction or they could have just kept Zeta.

  5. #4
    Chevrolet VOLT
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    10,676
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 563 Times in 368 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Thanks for posting this information.
    Wow, another fine mess GM's gotten itself into. At the heaviest approaching 4,000 pounds, it would be heavier than the Camaro and CTS! You got to be kidding me!
    Trying to lose 500 pounds makes the Alpha GM's "Biggest Loser" from a mass reduction standpoint.
    If GM is that poorly focused, bk or not, how does it expect to compete and lead an industry?
    Do you know if they are solving the problems? Dropping the avoirdupois? Is this even going to end up a car that an enthusiast would want?

  6. #5
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC rand49er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    South Lyon, MI
    Posts
    323
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 48 Times in 23 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darc Requiem View Post
    Okay, now I'm worried about weight again. Seriously 4000lbs. I hope they are successful with the 500lb weight reduction or they could have just kept Zeta.
    ^^^ Yeah that.

    This sounds like a too-many-cooks type thing. Anything over 3,800 lbs would seriously quench my interest.
    2005 CTS-V, LS6, Supercharged, Headers, and lots more. (garage queen)
    2011 Cruze ECO, 1.4T, 6-spd manual. (my DD)
    2012 SRX, 3.6, AWD. (wife's car).

  7. #6
    2.8 Liter Turbocharged V6 MikesZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    814
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Please GM, not another 3800 pound Camaro. Noooooooo.

  8. #7
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Could we possibly wait until the vehicles off Alpha debut before we begin to rip them apart? Some of you are as bad as the press - how many rumors have we seen that have never panned out? Instead of being typical Americans, why don't we be INFORMED and see the actual vehicle first.

  9. #8
    6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 MCGARRETT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    7,012
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 1,302 Times in 525 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Wow, were so awesome here, we cant hate the current GM cars enough, we need to start sh**ing all over cars that have not even come out yet!

    You know the 2014 Corvette is going to be crap too.....

  10. #9
    Editor
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    24,898
    Thanks
    145
    Thanked 1,971 Times in 514 Posts
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by GMNumberOne View Post
    Could we possibly wait until the vehicles off Alpha debut before we begin to rip them apart? Some of you are as bad as the press - how many rumors have we seen that have never panned out? Instead of being typical Americans, why don't we be INFORMED and see the actual vehicle first.
    It isn't like this is something we reported because it was hearsay. When you have 5-6 INDEPENDENT sources coming to you with the same concerns and information about a program, you know there is something up.

    I have never had so many sources confirm the same information to us.
    "What's noteworthy about this rumor is that it came from GMInsideNews.com. That in itself gives it a bit more credibility." - Edmund's Insideline, June 21, 2008

    E-Mail Me

  11. #10
    6.0 Liter L76 V8 Lowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Warren, Ohio
    Posts
    2,452
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 167 Times in 113 Posts
    My Ride
    1999 Chevy Blazer

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Sounded like a good plan, until Cadillac got involved.

  12. #11
    3.6 Liter SIDI V6
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    1,118
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    I hate to be overly critical, but I just cannot imagine that GM has allowed this car to reach 4000 pounds. Indeed, the commentary states that ALPHA, not ALPHA +, has reached 4000 pounds. So, one would expect Alpha + (CTS) to ring in at 4500 pounds +/-.

    I'm just not buying it.

    That being said, if the commentary is accurate, this is a sad, sad state of affairs. One would hope that the biggest part of this mess was caused pre-bankruptcy and that new GM was saddled with the aftermath. At least one could hope that new GM still has some competency under that scenario.

    Doom and gloom aside, that Torana STILL looks good today. GM really F'd up by not just building that car at the time. That car was a smash hit, and would have been a perfect enthusiast offering when gas prices spiked several times between 2004 and today. Even though the Kappas' fuel economy was less-than-stellar, given that the weight of the platform was relatively low, one would expect that some minor tweaks could have made the torana a 33-35 mpg highway car.

    Ah, wasted opportunities.

  13. #12
    GMI Camaro Forum Moderator Premium Member Z284ever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chicagoland
    Posts
    5,341
    Thanks
    83
    Thanked 738 Times in 364 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by GMNumberOne View Post
    Could we possibly wait until the vehicles off Alpha debut before we begin to rip them apart? Some of you are as bad as the press - how many rumors have we seen that have never panned out? Instead of being typical Americans, why don't we be INFORMED and see the actual vehicle first.
    To me that's kind of like saying: Can we we wait until my house burns down before I decide if I want a fire department?
    Pony Car: an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image and an available V8.

  14. #13
    GMI Camaro Forum Moderator Premium Member Z284ever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chicagoland
    Posts
    5,341
    Thanks
    83
    Thanked 738 Times in 364 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by MCGARRETT View Post
    Wow, were so awesome here, we cant hate the current GM cars enough, we need to start sh**ing all over cars that have not even come out yet!

    You know the 2014 Corvette is going to be crap too.....
    Actually, the Corvette will be pretty good. Far fewer cooks in that very focused kitchen.
    Pony Car: an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image and an available V8.

  15. #14
    Editor
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    24,898
    Thanks
    145
    Thanked 1,971 Times in 514 Posts
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by jckjds View Post
    I hate to be overly critical, but I just cannot imagine that GM has allowed this car to reach 4000 pounds. Indeed, the commentary states that ALPHA, not ALPHA +, has reached 4000 pounds. So, one would expect Alpha + (CTS) to ring in at 4500 pounds +/-.

    I'm just not buying it.

    That being said, if the commentary is accurate, this is a sad, sad state of affairs. One would hope that the biggest part of this mess was caused pre-bankruptcy and that new GM was saddled with the aftermath. At least one could hope that new GM still has some competency under that scenario.

    Doom and gloom aside, that Torana STILL looks good today. GM really F'd up by not just building that car at the time. That car was a smash hit, and would have been a perfect enthusiast offering when gas prices spiked several times between 2004 and today. Even though the Kappas' fuel economy was less-than-stellar, given that the weight of the platform was relatively low, one would expect that some minor tweaks could have made the torana a 33-35 mpg highway car.

    Ah, wasted opportunities.

    The SAME stuff happened with Sigma back in the day. As soon as Cadillac got their hands on Sigma it became a mess. This doesn't surprise me in the least bit.
    "What's noteworthy about this rumor is that it came from GMInsideNews.com. That in itself gives it a bit more credibility." - Edmund's Insideline, June 21, 2008

    E-Mail Me

  16. #15
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 zl-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Lisboa, Portugal
    Posts
    1,837
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 46 Times in 33 Posts

    Re: Alpha: Field of broken dreams?

    Quote Originally Posted by nsap View Post
    It isn't like this is something we reported because it was hearsay. When you have 5-6 INDEPENDENT sources coming to you with the same concerns and information about a program, you know there is something up.

    I have never had so many sources confirm the same information to us.
    Agreed.
    And if the story is factually correct as having 5 or 6 independent external confirmations would suggest, then I really don't know what to expect of the Alpha cars... There's a big chance they'll turn up to be "great, but adequate" instead of "great, the new class standard".

  17. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     


LinkBacks (?)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2