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If You Think The Z/28 Should Have a Free Revving, Normally Aspirated Smallblock .....

17K views 178 replies 51 participants last post by  Z284ever 
#1 · (Edited)
.....one which can put the hurt on the GT350's flat plane 5.2L, without a supercharger, post here.



When we're done, I'll send this thread to Mark Reuss and the rest of the Camaro Team.
 
#2 ·
Is there really a wrong answer? LT1 vs larger displacment LT1 vs LT4 vs turbo L83 . I think it's all about the desires and positioning of the car.

In these's type of situations I like to ask, "what would Porsche do?"

I think the best answer is a LT3 (Gen V LS3). No AFM, cam in cam phasing, dry sump lube, increase Revs to 7500 rpm, power increased to 490-530hp.
 
#46 ·
Is there really a wrong answer? LT1 vs larger displacment LT1 vs LT4 vs turbo L83 . I think it's all about the desires and positioning of the car.

I think the best answer is a LT3 (Gen V LS3). No AFM, cam in cam phasing, dry sump lube, increase Revs to 7500 rpm, power increased to 490-530hp.
I believe they copyrighted "LT88"...a heckuva notion for the missing Corvette GS version. Call the Camaro anything they like, as long as it's NOT late for dinner.

Sure it is. Just like the ZL1 was going to be the Z28. ;)
Saved by Reuss...

Hell while you are at it throw it in a Buick too...
Nice thought...but an Alpha-based GNX begs for an LF4.

Or a Corvette....
Speaking of LT88...

If there is a way to keep the Z/28's laser like focus and yet make it more accessible, that would be fine by me. Personally, I see no reason why the current Z/28 couldn't be a fine daily driver, beyond the issue of consumables like tires. Al Oppenheiser drove a Z/28 all through last winter and turned it in just recently. The only changes were the tires.
It DOES have a heater/defroster...

In all seriousness, I dont think a N/A high revving small block based on the LT1 is that far fetched. It the next Z28 will be competitive with about 550 or 560 hp so it doesn't have to be that high strung of an engine.
It's NOT. In fact, there IS an example in Warren...

Well, there was the Cheyenne concept that shared a resemblance with the Z/28. It's just begging for a unique engine (assuming, of course, it were greenlit).
YES! With the Z62 (6.2) Package...

The Z/28 should COMMAND respect. The 60's and early 70's versions did that. The current one does that.
Amended. DEMANDING respect almost always results in failure. COMMANDING respect implies you DESERVE it...like the Gen-5 Z/28 version does.
 
#3 ·
I'm a big block guy so no
 
#37 ·
Im totally with this. The LS7 is one of the sweetest sounding engines to me. After having a chance to drive both C5 Z06 and C6 Z06 on a track theres nothing like a NA engine on the track. GM cant lose this option.
 
#9 ·
I mentioned it before in the other thread, but I'd love to see a 396. I know it's a famous big block displacement and it's not the same as a 302, but it's got cachet. This theoretical 396 would need a new crank and rods, but could use the same bore and possibly the same piston topography as the LT1. Add the LT4's higher-flowing heads, perhaps ported, and it could easily produce more than 500hp. Give it to the Stingray to replace the LT1 as an MCE, and offer a less aggressive camshaft with as-cast heads for use in the HD trucks as well.
 
#66 · (Edited)
I know you've advocated this before in several other threads. Being only 20 inches away from the current 376, it would make 480 vs 455 with 1.2hp/cid. Not a big edge, but still. An edge.

I do like the idea of pushing this block to the limit though. How about 409? Then you get 490hp - nice ring to it "490hp 409." Legendary. Probably can push that to 500, but why?

Since it's also the truck engine, consider you'd get to 500lbs/ft from the current 460 of the truck 376. There you have your new HD K2x gas V8 as well. Now V4 gives you 204 cubes - only 58 short of the whole dadburn V6.

4.094 x 3.88 = 408.5.

It even has a 409 bore. See what I did there?

I love the idea of putting more distance between it and the 325...or...

If there is a loving God, push the 325 up to 349 by using the 409's 3.88 stroke. Again, only if Christ is risen.

Then the 'small' pickup engine with 1.1hp/cube has 380hp - closer to the Hemi.

In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

409.
 
#13 ·
I think only certain products could share such a "Special Performance" Z/28 engine. Corvette, obviously. Too bad the Z06 name is taken, would be a perfect marketing fit for that name.
 
#16 ·
For sure a high redline, quick-revving V8 would be preferable to a heavy iron lung hanging over the front axle. That might work best for the ultimate GT car and drag racers, but not on a road course or autocross. Even if that means the loss of 150 horses over the LT4, I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that the NA motor would be more fun on a daily basis.

I say take the LT1, lighten up every single reciprocating or rotating part as much as possible. Raise the redline to 7000RPM+, use a hotter cam, some free-flowing heads, I'm sure it can get up over 500 horses. Throwing said engine into the ATS-V+, and the Z51 Vette package should more than make up for the investment of getting it into a high-PO Camaro. That could be for the Z28 or even the 1LE if they wind up supercharging the Z28. That might not be what everyone is dreaming of, but I doubt many will complain if that mill runs in a $45K car instead of a $75K rarity.
 
#17 ·
The lt1 dry sump naturally aspirated v8 is a tune away from 500 hp...

If need be a cam swap would facilitate enough hp as well..

I'd prefer an LT4 for the super top dog camaro 6 th generation whatever it's called.

Not sure the pricing could be held though so a slightly hopped up naturally aspirated v8 would be cool for the z28.

It would be interesting to see the Chevy ford battle royale that would be created once the 6 th gen z28 releases....

I'd imagine a ZL1 could use the LT4 with more amenities to differentiate itself from the naturally aspirated club racer esque z28...

Has the z28 continued to be in high demand in the show room at 75 grand? That's not chump change and after the first year I was wondering if demand continued?
 
#18 ·
I think that would be the ideal situation, but I likewise think the LS7 being an off-the-shelf piece helped the current Z/28 program along significantly and a next gen variant isn't going to have that same solid footing to work from. I don't know that I believe GM will be willing to develop something that can really follow the current package properly without the mechanical bits being something they can utilize elsewhere to offset costs.....and it doesn't appear that there are any slam dunk applications for the same waiting in the wings right now with the new Z06 moving to artificial aspiration. This will be an uphill battle IMHO.
 
#19 ·
A truly track-focused car should NOT have a forced induction powerplant, IMO. Relative lack of throttle linearity and heat-sink issues hurt the car's lap consistency. I know Formula 1 has used turbos but I'm obviously not talking about that kind of car.
That being said, I don't think that the next Z/28 should be so single-minded in its track-focused mission. We just acquired our first C5 Z/28 at my dealership and everyone just scratches their head... who is this car for? There are not enough customers for this kind of Camaro. For the few that exist (who don't just want to buy a future collectible), they should be able to by a body-in-white model like the modern COPOs.
I still think Z/28 should be track-able and normally aspirated like a higher performance 1LE priced closer to the current 1LE. $75,xxx + for a Camaro is ridiculous regardless of the brakes, suspension or tires.
 
#20 ·
If there is a way to keep the Z/28's laser like focus and yet make it more accessible, that would be fine by me. Personally, I see no reason why the current Z/28 couldn't be a fine daily driver, beyond the issue of consumables like tires. Al Oppenheiser drove a Z/28 all through last winter and turned it in just recently. The only changes were the tires.
 
#22 ·
Flat plane crank small block, bitches! LOL

In all seriousness, I dont think a N/A high revving small block based on the LT1 is that far fetched. It the next Z28 will be competitive with about 550 or 560 hp so it doesn't have to be that high strung of an engine.
 
#23 ·
You can see this coming the 500hp/470 lb ft 7.0 will give way to a smaller capacity DI version
that still gets 500 hp/470 lb ft.... switching out the 4" crank and titanium rods for the 6.2 crank
and rods would be a relatively easy task that delivers an essential unique engine for the Z28.
A nice 6.3/6.4 V8 to do battle with Ford/Dodge?
 
#32 ·
The Z/28 should never be forced induction. Sorry, but that is sacrilege. It needs a free revving, naturally aspirated V8.

Want to spread out the costs of the engine, then use it in other products. Also, create 2 versions like what Ford is doing with the GT350. There will be the trackable everymans version, then there will be the track monster version. This way there are more sales to spread out the development costs on.

Since 2007, we have heard that Ford and the GT500 sucked because Ford was not able to get any power without resorting to forced induction (don't believe me, then look at threads from the day). How sadly ironic would it be if Ford releases a super high revving, flat plane, naturally aspirated GT350 and R, and its direct competition resorts to forced induction.

Sorry, but it is wrong. One of the cars that I will own someday, is a 1970 or 71 split bumper Z/28. GM............... don't screw this one up !!!
 
#36 ·
I never really did give my opinion. I prefer more options than less, and think the current lineup structure is perfect outside the lack of a performance V6 option. That said, I just want to see a car that will slap any other car silly on the road that are twice the price (outside of another certain vehicle made by GM). I do not necessarily like the idea of squeezing more ponies out of the same LT1 engine, as I always feel that those ponies should have been unlocked from day one on the standard SS (it could also be my obsessive compulsiveness coming out). If the Camaro team feels that forced induction is the way to go, I am sure they will deliver a kick-ass car. I think paying homage to history is important, but drastically overblown sometimes (no pun intended). Most people would call it sacrilegious to offer a Z06 with a blown engine, automatic transmission, and a convertible top, but is anyone really complaining now that they did? Hell no.
 
#41 ·
If the Camaro team feels that forced induction is the way to go, I am sure they will deliver a kick-ass car. I think paying homage to history is important, but drastically overblown sometimes (no pun intended). Most people would call it sacrilegious to offer a Z06 with a blown engine, automatic transmission, and a convertible top, but is anyone really complaining now that they did? Hell no.
I don't think anyone thinks forced induction is the way to go as much as it is a necessity for cost and scale. I think that's bull****.

As far as paying homage being overblown, I agree.

Z06 does not have the history that Z/28 does. Z/28's are revered and iconic. Fans are fanatical. After all, they are the only ones able to afford the new one.
This. Just on GMI, how many goddam people here have "Z28" in their names?
 
#38 ·
I don't like the Z06 with a blown engine.................... especially with the issues they are having with it. Name it something else. Keep the ZR1 name. Frankly, it is just wrong.

Z06 does not have the history that Z/28 does. Z/28's are revered and iconic. Fans are fanatical. After all, they are the only ones able to afford the new one.

So, does that mean that if the Z/28 comes out with a forced induction engine, that all Ford fans are free to mercilessly bash it for GM being unable to make power without forced induction??? Just curious.

The Z/28 should DEMAND respect. The 60's and early 70's versions did that. The current one does that. Doing what Ford did with the GT500, to the Z/28 does not do that. It opens it up to ridicule the same way the GT500 was ridiculed. Amazing how the game changes when your favorite is involved.
 
#45 ·
Chevy needs to be very careful, trying to be everything to everyone. It would be stupid to offer a blown ZL1 and Z/28. What's the point? The Z06 can't run more than five or six minutes without sitting on the sideline to cool down.

The Z/28 doesn't need 505 hp next time. It can have less hp with a superior power to weight ratio than the 5th gen and it will be faster. Give it a LT1, tuned or not. I'd rather see 35K worth of weight savings materials added to the SS, with continued use of advanced suspension, tires, brakes and aero.

How about a cf hood, roof, decklid, driveshaft, lexan read window, cf wheels, titanium exhaust? How about unique body panels? I understand all of them can't make cost wise, but there's plenty of options. Do something different other than focusing on power. Make the Z/28 special.

Let Ford straddle markets with the GT350. Keep the Z/28 pure. If you can't afford the Z/28, too bad. The Z/28 just earned an a special reputation. Don't screw that up.
 
#51 ·
I think the ISSUE with the Z/28 OR any other heritage name is the expectations of the buyers have for it and to me at almost 40 the current Z/28 is NOT the Z28 I am familiar with and is MORE inline the the storied COPO cars as seen in CAR & Driver and the Z28 (NO SLASH) 70's cars that would be the BEST GT car for a REASONABLE increase over a SS car
MY LINEUP
normal-GT models
LS
LT
LT sport pac
SS
SS sport pack
Z/28

NOW the TRACK CARS
1LE
ZL1
COPO

Track pack would include Brembo brakes Borla exhaust track setup suspension (street-able but stiff)
Z/28 would take a SS track pack add a sweet high revving NON BLOWN engine 500 BHP range and all be "tuned together"

1LE SS engine in a lightened/stripped down "track primary" car
ZL1 like a 1LE with the Z06 blower engine OR the Z/28 NA "revver"

but the MK5 Z/28 sees this type of an alignment NOT happening as the Current Z/28 is so much more car and the "FANS" / MAGS would go NUTS

back on point I VOTE for a NA "REVVER" of an engine for the Z/28
but would like a Blown "mountain" to be offered somewhere in the line up (hell cat hunter)
 
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