Tight Budgets slow Saturn Refreshning

[Bravada]

While it's a tiny sample I've shown photos of the Solstice to many collegues, and they think that it's laughable. They generally like the Sky (Opel GT), but don't like the rounded Solstice in the least.

Solstice is a laughable Pokemon-faced mistake. Opel GT's face should be the face of Pontiac.

As concerns vehicles:

1. Scirocco-like low 3-door compact
2. Mid-engined "reverse Kappa" Fiero at Toyota MR2/MGTF prices
3. Pontiac G8, obviously (the 300C did not outsell the Golf yet, but people do buy those)
4. Add fourth at your liking

I don't say Pontiac has the vehicles now. I do believe there is potential in this brand, and not just trying to juggle between the bargain-basement family-fun Chevrolet, family-not-fun stodgy Opel and quirky-and-expensive Saab.

[jzchev28]

in related news....i saw a opel corsa driving near detroit(on 53 by the GM tech center) a couple days ago. it was a very sharp looking car, its smaller then the astra. probally yaris sized only not ugly

[newdude]

Originally Posted by agent.theory

I'm going to recommend the worst scenario for Pontiac fans like me. In order for GM to survive, the number of divisions must be non-overlapping. GM cannot survive as long as its brands compete with each other. That means two divisions only: Chevy and Cadillac.

The best cars of the others can be divvied up:

G8 to Chevy as the new Impala, and a luxury version to Cadillac as the new STS

Vue to Chevy

Astra to Chevy, but with far more trim choices.

Solstice to Chevy

The Enclave and the new Invicta look great and could go to Cadillac as all-wheel drive models.

Everything else is overlap. The main problem is, GM can't afford this kind of radical restructuring, for various reasons that are all well known. But they can't continue with today's divisions either. As a long-time Pontiac driver, I hate to say that there is no place for Pontiac anymore, and GM is nearly out of capital. The proposed government loans will only forestall the inevitable--the collapse of General Motors.

I find it very funny that your worst case senario involves all the other brands except two tanking if Pontiac (your fav.) tanks. WTF!!! Wrong. I agree with others in that Saturn does have a great set of products. I have noticed this around my town. The Vue seems very popular. I see anywhere from 6-12, more or less. Same somewhat for the Outlook and Aura.

However, the most popular Saturns I see on the road are the "lovely" plastic bodied eco-sedans that they were known for creating. But why?? Saturn of today can be just as popular but lack something important: Public awareness. I think it might have gotten to people's heads that Saturn still makes plastic cars. They are not AWARE of how they have changed over the years. They are not AWARE of their newest and greatest products. To me, the biggest drawback to (being specific here) the Astra is its price. Why can't you get the 3-dr for $15,000-$16,000? Why is it $18,000? Why do I hardly hear about the Astra? I swear, 1 of the 2 dealerships in my area has a sole Astra out front, while the rest play hide and go seek behind the Outlooks, Auras and Vues. And what sits in the very front of their parking lot?? Craptastic used cars. They fail to create a buzz by placing an Aura or Astra or Sky out front. If I were them, 1 of each car would be perched out in their front lawn, not a buch of used cars. Saturn may need a new Aura, and maybe some upgrades to the Astra, but they fail to do good with what they have.

Now, to your Pontiac tanking theory. If, and only IF Pontiac were to go under, everything else shall NOT. Now, maybe the G8 could go to Chevy and become an Impala but, I have a crazy idea. Why not give to someone else...maybe even...as a flagship sedan for...Saturn?? I think to myself: Why not?? Keep it in limited production, make it fit in with the rest of the brand. Just, something to spark them up. The Solstice IMO could work excellent as a nice roadster/coupe for Buick. Again, why not?? Waterfall grille up front, some body tweaking, keep the engines but the 2.0T becomes a Super model, price it just right and bam. The anbsence of the Vibe could be filled by the next Aveo or current or next Astra (even better if both were to gain AWD).

Now, some here say dump the Outlook. I say dump the Traverse. How many more crossovers/SUV's is freaking Chevy going to have?? Oh, we have the Cruze coming in forever from now so in the meantime enjoy our new truck. Thats all Chevy still IMO seems to focus on, is trucks. Tahoe, Suburban, Equinox, Traverse, and a future small one to underseat the Eq. If the Eq is going to be bigger than the last one, why have an even bigger crossover? Eq competes with Edge, the smaller one competes w/ CR-V. I see nothing wrong with the Outlook. IMO, the Traverse was a waste of $$.

Anyway, what I was trying to say in the first place is that Saturn can survive untill new products are able to be developed if they can fix their image and get people to stop thinking eco-plastic and give the Saturn brand a boost in awareness and bring people to their dealers to see what Saturn has to offer.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by jckjds

If GM cuts Pontiac in favor of Saturn, it will be the biggest mistake GM has made in a long time (and that's really saying something with this comedy of errors).

Quite frankly, one brand needs to go. Given that Saturn only has a limited number of stores and a limited sales volume (plus, little brand value due to its relatively recent creation), it is the most obvious choice. Cutting Saturn should be relatively inexpensive, and it's product portfolio could be redistributed Buick and Pontiac (whatever isn't cut altogether).

Outlook -- gone, it's the worst of the Lambdas anyway.
Vue -- Buick
Aura -- gone -- the upcoming Lacrosse is better and competes in the same category/price.
Sky -- gone -- already have the Solstice. Could make it a Chevy if GM really wants to keep 2 around.
Astra -- could be the entry level Pontiac. Performance needs to be added, but it's already available in the european model, so that's noot a big deal.

Going forward, Buick should be heavily aligned with Opel -- as Opel's new, upscale designs appear to be a perfect fit for Buick. That should reduce Buick's overhead, while allowing for a relatively complete lineup.

I completely agree too....

Saturn has been a COSTLY MISTAKE from DAY ONE

Think about it, it was the GM division for people too embarrassed to buy a GM car. Who dreamt that up? The guy who penned "Not your fathers Oldsmobile"? The plan was rather then fix the issues at Olds, Buick, Pontiac... we'll just let them soldier on and create a new division... One with better cars and great customer service. WTF?... Let me get this right, so its ok to sell crap out of the other divisions and treat those customers like dirt... But at "Saturn we're a different kind of car company". The response from the CEO should have been hysterical laughter, followed by a quick YOU'RE FIRED to the guy that proposed this.

By creating Saturn they did not make things better, it made things WORSE. Now we have EVEN LESS capital to help the wounded brands... Making their death spiral faster. More product overlap, and more reliance on badge engineering. Olds Gone, Pontiac soon to Go, Buick hanging on ONLY on the hopes of China.... Zero marketing for SAAB, and Cadillac has only one car that sells.

But that's OK? Right? Just as long as the gamble paid off, as long as all of those PO'ed customers that we treated badly and sold crap to came over to a "Different Kind of Division of GM"... Whoops... Saturn FOOLED NO-ONE...

It took everyone all of 5 seconds to figure out that these were just more GM cars... If they had an issue with the latest Oldsmobuick they weren't shopping at Saturn. Sales have NEVER amounted to anything, and the division has NEVER turned a profit...

If you can get 10¢ for it then bundle it with Hummer and sell it off...
If not just kill it.
Its DONE.

[vcs2600]

Neither Pontiac nor Saturn are really worth a damn to GM. (Except that Saturn has a pretty nice dealer network.)

It's a silly argument over which one is better when they both should probably be shut down and/or merged with Chevrolet's product line, weeding out all the crappy dealerships in the process.

[Bravada]

Saturn's dealers are far from crappy, FWIK...

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Solstice is a laughable Pokemon-faced mistake.

It outsells the Miata and Sky. The Miata had almost 20 years of history behind it and a huge league of dedicated fans and the Solstice outsold it in its first year. Solstice might not work for everyone, but it works for many.

[paul8488]

Originally Posted by Bravada

I don't say Pontiac has the vehicles now.

Not trying to be difficult, but why bother with Pontiac in Europe? It's an unknown name and doesn't have the product required for Europe. Does GM really have it in them to design a whole new lineup of cars for the super-competitive European market and sell them under an unknown name? Toyota and Honda don't even seem to have cracked Europe... I don't see how GM can with a fourth brand. I'd say spend that money on Saab (for Europe... Saab's done in North America), and replace the 9-3, 9-5 while adding a 9-1 and 9-2 and the upcoming 9-4x. I think that Saab's brand power is certainly a huge asset compared to an unknown like Pontiac, no?

[Bravada]

It outsells the Miata and Sky

Are you sure it still does? I've recently read the Solstice started to accumulate on dealers' lots, plus Matsuda has the Roadster Coupe option...

It's an unknown name and doesn't have the product required for Europe.

Again - NOT unknown! I bet more people heard of Pontiac than Tata, or perhaps even Kia.

Toyota and Honda don't even seem to have cracked Europe... I don't see how GM can with a fourth brand.

Toyota and Honda hold rather substantial market shares, and we are also speaking of an additional GM brand, not GM as a whole. The Pontiac brand could ADD sales on the level of Honda or perhaps just Alfa Romeo, but still ADD on top of GM's already large share. The problem with Toyota and Honda is that their offerings are not universally appealing - Toyotas are too bland and Hondas - too "unique" to please everybody. With another brand each, both could perhaps have a better coverage of the market.

I'd say spend that money on Saab (for Europe... Saab's done in North America), and replace the 9-3, 9-5 while adding a 9-1 and 9-2 and the upcoming 9-4x. I think that Saab's brand power is certainly a huge asset compared to an unknown like Pontiac, no?

Certainly Saab needs more investment, and I disagree with the thesis that they're "done in North America". They do not have a compelling product, and the marketing/sales effort is minimal. They do need a 9-3 and a 9-2 hatch, a current 9-5-sized 9-5 could succeed, but the large barge they prepare will have a hard time. The 9-4X is a good product. But all this is already coming, no additional investment needed, perhaps just more ingenuity in design and engineering.

[paul8488]

Oh I don't think that Pontiac is really all that well known. Some people I know here have perhaps heard the name, but it means absolutely nothing to them. Some still don't even know anything about Chevrolet... I don't think that GM can count on much goodwill built into the Pontiac name in Europe.

We already had a little chat about Chevrolet in another thread, and the fact that they can't build desireable cars for Europe. Cadillac doesn't build desirable cars for Europe. Saab doesn't build desireable cars for Europe. There's only Opel that seems to offer Europeans what they want. More misses than hits... why is Pontiac going to be any different? I'm pretty sure GM considers the Tacuma / Rezzo replacement pretty important (it's a big segment in Europe), and you pointed out that it's going to flop. If they can't do a people mover properly are they really going to do a sporty little lineup properly? I just don't see it.

[Citation84]

The plan was the current Astra was only going to be imported for 2 years: 2008 & 2009.
As a "stop gap". T

The plant in Belgium is going to be retooled to build something else besides the Astra. [ as covered on Saturn Fans].

There will be a new Astra for Europe in 2010 IIRC. How will the Astra be "ready for freshening" in 2011 when the current model will no longer be built ?

This is more ominous than it sounds. Where is the "next" Astra going to come from, unless it's the all new one imported from Europe? Mexico ? Daewoo? Or will Saturn simply continue to sell left over 09's until the supposed "freshened" one comes out, imported, with GM bleeding red ink on every one sold ? Like was done with the ION. Or the Neon.

This plan is not sustainable.

[vcs2600]

Maybe they should just stick some plastic panels on the Cruze and go back to square 1.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by GMinTheDriveway

Killing Saturn is not the answer. It's not as if Saturn is a so-called "damaged brand". They haven't been around long enough for that. Saturn's shortcoming is lack of market awareness.

Saturn is doing far worse then any of GM’s so-called “damaged brands. Saturn has been around for 18 years, the people who don’t think they have a rep for building cheap plastic car are you and GM’s marketing team.

Originally Posted by GMinTheDriveway

Plus, killing off Saturn will have no effect on the income of GM. Just like the demise of Olds, Saturn buyers will NOT migrate to other GM brands en masse. It has been quoted numerous times that Saturn buyers in overwhelming numbers (60-75%) would not even CONSIDER buying a GM vehicle outside of Saturn.

Try and fallow me here:
#1 Saturn is unprofitable
#2 GM other brands are profitable
#3 if GM killed Saturn about 30% of their sales would to GM other brands
#4 that would mean GM would sell less cars and make more money.

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

The fleet percentages are from Automotive Fleet - their sales statistics seem to be behind GM July 2008 sales report:

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Stat...s.pdf&channel=

Look at the Numbers. Retail sales G6 44,800, Aura 23,800. Even when you look at the retail sales Saturn is still doing horrible. It’s a failed brand, it failed like 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

I completely agree too....

Saturn has been a COSTLY MISTAKE from DAY ONE

Think about it, it was the GM division for people too embarrassed to buy a GM car. Who dreamt that up? The guy who penned "Not your fathers Oldsmobile"? The plan was rather then fix the issues at Olds, Buick, Pontiac... we'll just let them soldier on and create a new division... One with better cars and great customer service. WTF?... Let me get this right, so its ok to sell crap out of the other divisions and treat those customers like dirt... But at "Saturn we're a different kind of car company". The response from the CEO should have been hysterical laughter, followed by a quick YOU'RE FIRED to the guy that proposed this.

By creating Saturn they did not make things better, it made things WORSE. Now we have EVEN LESS capital to help the wounded brands... Making their death spiral faster. More product overlap, and more reliance on badge engineering. Olds Gone, Pontiac soon to Go, Buick hanging on ONLY on the hopes of China.... Zero marketing for SAAB, and Cadillac has only one car that sells.

But that's OK? Right? Just as long as the gamble paid off, as long as all of those PO'ed customers that we treated badly and sold crap to came over to a "Different Kind of Division of GM"... Whoops... Saturn FOOLED NO-ONE...

It took everyone all of 5 seconds to figure out that these were just more GM cars... If they had an issue with the latest Oldsmobuick they weren't shopping at Saturn. Sales have NEVER amounted to anything, and the division has NEVER turned a profit...

If you can get 10¢ for it then bundle it with Hummer and sell it off...
If not just kill it.
Its DONE.

It’s time to fire those marketing guy.