Tight Budgets slow Saturn Refreshning

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

What site did you get these figures from?

GM.com, investors, sales and deliveries, July 2008 report:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...Deliveries.pdf

The fleet percentages are from Automotive Fleet - their sales statistics seem to be behind GM July 2008 sales report:

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Stat...s.pdf&channel=

[jckjds]

Originally Posted by agent.theory

I'm going to recommend the worst scenario for Pontiac fans like me. In order for GM to survive, the number of divisions must be non-overlapping. GM cannot survive as long as its brands compete with each other. That means two divisions only: Chevy and Cadillac.

The best cars of the others can be divvied up:

G8 to Chevy as the new Impala, and a luxury version to Cadillac as the new STS

Vue to Chevy

Astra to Chevy, but with far more trim choices.

Solstice to Chevy

The Enclave and the new Invicta look great and could go to Cadillac as all-wheel drive models.

Everything else is overlap. The main problem is, GM can't afford this kind of radical restructuring, for various reasons that are all well known. But they can't continue with today's divisions either. As a long-time Pontiac driver, I hate to say that there is no place for Pontiac anymore, and GM is nearly out of capital. The proposed government loans will only forestall the inevitable--the collapse of General Motors.

That's a little too much doom and gloom, IMO. GM just needs to realize that IF it is going to have this many brands, then not every brand can be everything to everyone. Most of the brands need to be niche brands. Indeed, Chevy should be the only one with a full lineup. As it is, GM is, more or less, trying to give a full or nearly full lineup to everyone. That will not continue to work.

Furthermore, GM makes A LOT of vehicles worldwide. If it simply brings some of those here rebadged as American brands, then it would essentially cost GM NOTHING to keep those brands going (while saving it the costs and lost goodwill of cutting more brands).

So the lineup could look like this:

Chevy -- full lineup, mostly FWD, with the exception of Trucks, Corvette and Camaro.

Buick -- near lux niche division. 3 cars, 1-2 CUV's, all FWD, all/mostly Opel rebadges.

Pontiac -- performance RWD -- cheaper, sportier versions of Caddy. 3 cars, no CUV's, all/mostly rebadged holdens

Caddy -- Full Lux. Ditch the BOF Trucks or merge Caddy and GMC Trucks into a single line of luxury trucks. No need for 3 truck lineups at all -- in fact, I'd be happy with GMC's as rebadged Chevys (to fill the PBG channel) and no Caddy Trucks, but whatever.

Saab is saab. 9-3, 9-5 and a CUV.

Sell Hummer.

Under this scenario, GM worldwide needs only a lineup of FWD vehicle platforms and RWD platforms, plus a BOF Truck platform. No more competing platforms. Furthermore, all platforms should be designed for world markets. No more designing vehicles for Asia or Europe that don't meet US standards and vice versa. Economies of scale need to be maximized. Cars for Opels should be Buicks and Holdens should be Pontiacs -- eliminating the burdensome number of car lines that GM has now. GM then needs to invest in upgrading these fewer models more often with MCE's and shorter life spans.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

GM.com, investors, sales and deliveries, July 2008 report:

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...Deliveries.pdf

The fleet percentages are from Automotive Fleet - their sales statistics seem to be behind GM July 2008 sales report:

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Stat...s.pdf&channel=

Good deal Lichtronamo. Thanks for the information!

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by jckjds

That's a little too much doom and gloom, IMO. GM just needs to realize that IF it is going to have this many brands, then not every brand can be everything to everyone. Most of the brands need to be niche brands. Indeed, Chevy should be the only one with a full lineup. As it is, GM is, more or less, trying to give a full or nearly full lineup to everyone. That will not continue to work.

Furthermore, GM makes A LOT of vehicles worldwide. If it simply brings some of those here rebadged as American brands, then it would essentially cost GM NOTHING to keep those brands going (while saving it the costs and lost goodwill of cutting more brands).

So the lineup could look like this:

Chevy -- full lineup, mostly FWD, with the exception of Trucks, Corvette and Camaro.

Buick -- near lux niche division. 3 cars, 1-2 CUV's, all FWD, all/mostly Opel rebadges.

Pontiac -- performance RWD -- cheaper, sportier versions of Caddy. 3 cars, no CUV's, all/mostly rebadged holdens

Caddy -- Full Lux. Ditch the BOF Trucks or merge Caddy and GMC Trucks into a single line of luxury trucks. No need for 3 truck lineups at all -- in fact, I'd be happy with GMC's as rebadged Chevys (to fill the PBG channel) and no Caddy Trucks, but whatever.

Saab is saab. 9-3, 9-5 and a CUV.

Sell Hummer.

Under this scenario, GM worldwide needs only a lineup of FWD vehicle platforms and RWD platforms, plus a BOF Truck platform. No more competing platforms. Furthermore, all platforms should be designed for world markets. No more designing vehicles for Asia or Europe that don't meet US standards and vice versa. Economies of scale need to be maximized. Cars for Opels should be Buicks and Holdens should be Pontiacs -- eliminating the burdensome number of car lines that GM has now. GM then needs to invest in upgrading these fewer models more often with MCE's and shorter life spans.

Unless they can build them in NA, it isn't viable just to rebadge GM's global portfolio because of exchange rates and GM has no money to start up local production. This doesn't even address whether these products meet NA requirements.

Re: Holdens as Pontiacs, have you looked at the full Holden line up? Nothing to get excited about and most of which is already here:

Viva - rebadged Daewoo


Astra - rebadged Opel


Epica - rebadged Daewoo


Commodore (VE) - Holden developed


Caprice (WM) - Holden developed

[tgagneguam]

This plan sounds just as bright as people's inclinations to stop investing in the stock market when the market's down. Let's see, for GM that means starve investment in products, which take 3-4 years to develop, so that when the car market starts to show solid gains your dealerships are flooded with old models. Then, you're left once again to play catch up to Toyota, Honda and BMW, who regularly invest in their entire range (and whose profits demonstrate it). Sounds just about right if you're GM. Go Wagoner and team!

Seems like GM could benefit from a quick read, "Investing for Dummies." Extrapolate a few lessons to running a successful car enterprise:

When the car market's up, you invest in a diversified portfolio.
When the car market's down, you invest in a diversified portfolio.
When the car market's flat, you invest in a diversified portfolio.
In the long-term, you'll be in good stead, just like Honda, Toyota, and BMW.

[FBODYRULES]

Originally Posted by agent.theory

I'm going to recommend the worst scenario for Pontiac fans like me. In order for GM to survive, the number of divisions must be non-overlapping. GM cannot survive as long as its brands compete with each other. That means two divisions only: Chevy and Cadillac.

...

stop right there! no way! that would be a real bad move!

[kenman923]

Looks like the end in sight for Saturn. I don't see how they will survive with their current offerings while other automakers are coming to bat with newer and better looking products.

[montrealvue]

Originally Posted by FBODYRULES

stop right there! no way! that would be a real bad move!

Hardly. GM is bleeding from every possible orifice. If you owned a company, wouldn't you cut out what wasn't profitable? Despite alot of belt tightening and beancounters working overtime to see if a car can be built with .5% less steel, there is still alot of fat that can be cut. Namely, useless brands that haven't shown growth in years and have diminishing brand loyalty. Ultimately, if GM wanted to forget about the market share pissing match, they would concentrate on what is profitable and THAT ONLY. Chevy and Cadillac should be the only ones left standing, everything else is pretty much an exercise in futility and wasted effort. Disagree as you will, but GM is a company like any other and profit should come first.

[smaxx]

If the VUE 4-cyl XE had the six-speed transmission in it, I'd be driving one right now. Hopefully for 2010 MY.

[EldoFan]

Who cares about refreshes when there is little to no competent marketing of Saturn's lineup? (the Vue/Outlook not withstanding.....)

You see ads and commercials for cars like the Malibu and Solstice, but what about the Aura and Sky--not to mention the Astra?? In my area, such advertising has been spotty at best.

With Saturn's limited dealer network, one would think they would get the advertising/marketing thing down pat before they get too concerned with model refreshes......

[Lichtronamo]

No Money For Marketing And/or Product Development For Eight Brands In Na!!!

[Bravada]

That means two divisions only: Chevy and Cadillac.

I hate it when people profess they are GM fans but are actually Chevrolet and Cadillac fans. GM is ALL THAT, not just the bowtie. If you want GM to kill Pontiac, Buick or GMC, you are not a real GM fan. I mean it.

Back to business:

GM is utterly stupid. First, to completely destroy the advantage of having separate brands and distribution networks, they keep on advertising "GM" (I get a lot of "GM" ads browsing through American websites) and make sure you know that Buick, Chevrolet and Saturn are the same. But then, they won't let you get all of the at the same store.

I do agree with the current market share and all, GM cannot afford 8 separate distribution channels. I actually believe they cannot even afford 2 - GM as such and Saturn. They need combined dealerships, with optional separate sales/service areas for GM's "PAG" - Cadillac, Saab and Hummer (with the possible inclusion of Buick to give it the "Mercury" selling point of great service at affordable prices).

IMHO GM can only profit from the multibrand portfolio when used properly:

1. Saturn could serve as sales outlet for Opels in the US - that means no Outlook
2. Pontiac should take care of the re-emerging global small performance car market - and their traditional large performance car market. That means no Saturn Sky/Opel GT, and no "sports" versions of Opels. It is either the family car Opel, focused on being a reasonable, high-quality choice a la Volkswagen, or a swanky sports car with utility sacrificed for good looks and great driving experience, a la Alfa Romeo.

I'd do it that way:

1. City car -> 5-door Opel Agila / Saturn... rather not / no Pontiac
2. Small car -> 3/5-door Corsa / Saturn Corsa / Pontiac 3-door Coupe with targa roof a la old Toyota Paseo
3. Small MPV -> Opel/Saturn Meriva
4. Compact -> Saturn/Opel Astra as 5-door, Caravan, sedan / Pontiac 3-door low, sleek Scirocco-Astra and/or coupe with ragtop convertible option
5. Compact MPV -> Opel/Saturn Zafira
6. Intermediate -> Saturn/Opel Vectra or Omega or Rekord or Ascona family sedan and wagon / Pontiac 5-door fastback with rear headroom compromised for coupe-like styling (a la what actually became the Insignia) and/or actual coupe version
7. Large -> only Pontiac Grand Prix + GTO (what is now the G8/VE and what should be the Monaro)
8. Two-door roadster, perhaps mid-engined -> only Pontiac (Solstice/Fiero)

I'd say 3-4 models out of the proposed Pontiacs are economically feasible, I don't have enough date to decide which. Pontiac absolutely needs to be a global brand. GM is delusional if they think an Opel can be both a reasonable VW, Ford and Toyota competitor AND the vehicle to rival Audi and Alfa. What is worse, they made the Insignia try more for the latter, giving up all-important rear headroom, trunk space and all, while ending up with a large, fat cow that is now Audi or Alfa either. I still laugh at Opel OPCs... Really, why try to push 1000 of those a year to some desperate Opel fans rather than build a strong customer base with Pontiac?

[Uligar]

@ Bravada

Nice approach.
I like the Idea how u share the Opel cars between Saturn and Pontiac.

But this

I still laugh at Opel OPCs... Really, why try to push 1000 of those a year to some desperate Opel fans rather than build a strong customer base with Pontiac?

will be only work in NA and not in Europe
(No one knows the Brand Pontiac in Europe vice versa no one knows Opel in NA)

[paul8488]

Pontiac in Europe? Are Chevrolet / Opel / Saab not enough? Do you really see a need for another brand jammed in there somewhere? I don't see where they would fit in, especially if we consider Pontiac's current North American lineup. Europeans are clamouring for a G5 and G6? The Vibe is the only vehicle that I can see that would have any chance in Europe.

While it's a tiny sample I've shown photos of the Solstice to many collegues, and they think that it's laughable. They generally like the Sky (Opel GT), but don't like the rounded Solstice in the least.

I don't see where Pontiac would have any impact in Europe at all.

[Bravada]

I do. Really.

People DO KNOW Pontiac. Say "Pontiac" to every other young kid and they'll draw a big sleek sportscar (as good as they can). There is a growing market for "sporty" cars now, ones that you can actually drive everyday, but they aren't focused around utility and give you more driving pleasure than a regular family car.

Of course, you can cover this market with "sporty versions of your regular cars and call it a day. But I believe a car especially built not to compromise performance, with a badge evoking some emotion, will sell much better than an OPC Opel. See Alfa Romeo 147, which is a hundred years old (and really, not that much a blast to drive), and still holds its own and sells much better than even the legendary Golf GTI.