Tight Budgets slow Saturn Refreshning

[Lichtronamo]

Cutting Saturn would likely cost more than Pontiac because Saturn has almost all stand alone stores that would be out of business. You can appease a BPG dealer by offering them Saturn in exchange for Pontiac, which also serves to increase the number of Saturn stores, which should improve sales for the brand.

Pontiac's YTD sales are 178,127 units vs. 119,808 for Saturn. Pontiac's YTD numbers include 7,505 Grand Prix's (which has been cut) and 13,641 Torrents (which will be rebranded a GMC). 98,943 units or 55.5% of the Pontiac's total sales are from the G6, of which over 40% are fleet sales (mostly to rental companies) according to Automotive Fleet - a number consistent with the overall percentage of fleet sales for the brand. Take away the dead and dying product and fleet sales, and my guess is that the retail sales for the two brands are comparable, while Saturn's sales per store numbers are higher.

[2002 Caddy]

This isn't Saturn News.. This is Buick, Cadillac, Pontiac, Saab, GMC and Saturn news

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by newdude

A new small car?? why?? How about getting the Astra OUT there, cut the price a bit, actually advertise, add more to it, then think about a smaller car.

Originally Posted by guitarlix

A total and absolute waste of money. Saturn won't sell unless they fix the brand (image)............and considering that many people don't even know the company exists, that calls for a helluva fix.

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

based on todays headlines one would have to conclude that GM is in chaos. If there's a GM in 10 years it'll sell nothing but mini cars.

That's the overall problem with GM right now. The perception gap still exists and they are having a difficult time relaying to customers what their brands stand for and how they are relevant.

You guys hit it on the head. Saturn has some great products like the Aura and Astra - but if no one takes notice, what is the point? The public has not taken notice or simply do not care. It's almost like Oldsmobile - they built the best and most consistent products GM had at the time, but no one showed up at the dealerships to buy'em.

What's more, where will the money come from to advertise for these products? Will they take money away from Chevy just as the Malibu is coming on steam or the Traverse and Cruze that will soon be launched? Will they take it from Pontiac or Buick which are getting hit in the head at the moment - and they dont even advertise models like the G5 or the LaCrosse?

The money has to come from somewhere!!!

There is only so much $ to go around and GM better start making the tough choices on its outdated brand strategy or the rest of the company will suffer.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

GMI suggested that Saturn could be inserted into BPG.

The idea of substituting Saturn into the BPG stores (and killing Pontiac) make some sense. It reduces the number of competing brands/products GM has (and reduces development costs which is a MAJOR issue for GM right now), provides the existing Pontiac dealers with almost equal retail volume, provides GM with more Saturn stores and avoids the need to close down existing Saturn stores that are almost all freestanding (and thus cost prohibitive).

Maybe this is the "official" news NSAP is promising later this week?

It is certainly possible that Saturn stores could be consolidated with Pontiac stores.

However, how that will play out with franchise laws is another argument.

Saturn was set up since it's inception to be a stand alone franchise. Would the "no hassle" approach that the Saturnisti have enjoyed be carried over? Would BPG products now also be no-haggle?

I agree that killing Pontiac and retaining Saturn may be the easiest approach, but don't know if it will create any more sales for GM. Considering the fact that GM has sunk MAJOR investments in Saturn and has gotten very little in return is alarming.

Conversely, GM has paid almost no attention to Pontiac and has continually cut their lineup. Look at what they've cut over the last few years: No direct Firebird replacement, no Torrent replacement coming, no Montana replacement, no G5 sedan after the Sunfire sedan died (shameful in light of high gasoline prices) and no "direct" replacement for the Grand Prix (one would argue that the G8 is far more expensive and could be considered a lower-volume/higher-positioned product). Now all of these products weren't "Great", but volume is still volume.

Instead, Pontiac got only warmed over high-volume products (the G6 mostly) and still they sell in larger numbers than Saturn does (even if most people think that Saturn products are better looking/appointed).

That has to frighten more than a few people if Saturn has recieved Billions of dollars in investments while Pontiac has gotten nothing. If all things were equal, and Pontiac got that kind of investment, would they be getting the lion's share?

Perhaps there is some equity still left in the Pontiac name....

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by jckjds

If GM cuts Pontiac in favor of Saturn, it will be the biggest mistake GM has made in a long time (and that's really saying something with this comedy of errors).

Quite frankly, one brand needs to go. Given that Saturn only has a limited number of stores and a limited sales volume (plus, little brand value due to its relatively recent creation), it is the most obvious choice. Cutting Saturn should be relatively inexpensive, and it's product portfolio could be redistributed Buick and Pontiac (whatever isn't cut altogether).

Outlook -- gone, it's the worst of the Lambdas anyway.
Vue -- Buick
Aura -- gone -- the upcoming Lacrosse is better and competes in the same category/price.
Sky -- gone -- already have the Solstice. Could make it a Chevy if GM really wants to keep 2 around.
Astra -- could be the entry level Pontiac. Performance needs to be added, but it's already available in the european model, so that's noot a big deal.

Going forward, Buick should be heavily aligned with Opel -- as Opel's new, upscale designs appear to be a perfect fit for Buick. That should reduce Buick's overhead, while allowing for a relatively complete lineup.

Some good points here as well.

Though if GM kills Saturn or Pontiac, either one will be very expensive for GM. If Pontiac folds, the dealer network will get worked up and look to sue GM for lost volume. If the brands are consolidated and BPG is folded in with Saturn, then it still costs GM a ton since they'd have to help negotiate buyouts, etc as stores combine (Remember, part of GM's aim is to heavily reduce the number of dealerships out there from the 6000+ locations). And if Saturn is killed, there are still 400+ dealerships out there that will have to be compensated somehow.

As for product, however, since China seems to be the biggest influence in Buick's design moving forward, may it not be better for Opel to be twinned with Pontiac and let Buick stay more connected with Buick of China? Considering that Pontiac has always pretended to be a "BMW competitor" (and the rebel-spirit of Pontiac back in the day was to go after the Europeans - GTO, LeMans, etc) wouldn't taking the Euro-centric Opel brand as an influence be better?

Just my two cents...

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by megeebee

I agree with BRAVADA. The Outlook was a mistake for the Saturn brand. With the Traverse coming for Chevrolet, I think the Outlook should die. Sales of the Vue might inch up if there were no Outlook.

The Astra is a grearter puzzlement. According to Automotive News Data Center, only 5900 had sold so far this year, through July 31. In comparison, the Outlook has sold 15,428 which is down 22% from last year.

Saturn totals were off nearly 18% from last year for the same period.

What the hell is wrong????

I agree, the Outlook was a mistake. A proper mini-van may have been better?

Regardless, the problem remains awareness. I dont have the figures, but I wonder how much the Aura sells compared to the G6? Anyone have a clue? If the G6, with a dated interior and aging look, sells more units than the Aura, one would have to wonder if this doesn't come down solely to brand awareness, advertising, marketing, and the like.

As you say, the Astra is a great product - why doesn't it sell? Is it merely because it's a hatchback in a market that doesn't really appreciate them? More to the point, did Ion sales last year at this time outstrip where the Astra is now? That would be an even more frightening prospect if proven true...

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

Cutting Saturn would likely cost more than Pontiac because Saturn has almost all stand alone stores that would be out of business. You can appease a BPG dealer by offering them Saturn in exchange for Pontiac, which also serves to increase the number of Saturn stores, which should improve sales for the brand.

All true, it would cost more. Except that it would violate GM's desire to reduce the sales channels as well. Forcing a BPG/Saturn consolidation (minues a defunct Pontiac nameplate) would create headaches for GM as well. Do former BPG locations simply take on Saturn as a Pontiac replacement? Do Saturn stores pick up GMC and Buick franchises as well? Do they all sell their products as no-haggle or does Saturn lose that edge?

I dont think it will be easy no matter what.

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

Pontiac's YTD sales are 178,127 units vs. 119,808 for Saturn. Pontiac's YTD numbers include 7,505 Grand Prix's (which has been cut) and 13,641 Torrents (which will be rebranded a GMC). 98,943 units or 55.5% of the Pontiac's total sales are from the G6, of which over 40% are fleet sales (mostly to rental companies) according to Automotive Fleet - a number consistent with the overall percentage of fleet sales for the brand. Take away the dead and dying product and fleet sales, and my guess is that the retail sales for the two brands are comparable, while Saturn's sales per store numbers are higher.

Saturn stores most definitely have the edge with regards to sales per store - there are simply fewer of them divided by a near even volume of units so they win out as far as profit-per-franchise.

In the end, however, volume is still volume. Even taking away fleet sales, if Pontiac is moving more metal (and I'm impressed that over 50% of their sales are just from the G6), then there is certainly some viability left in the brand.

Just me though...

[FierySolstice]

Saturn does need some help, but not much. The Aura is a good car now, it should be replaced in a couple years with the Insignia. The new Astra is also in development. It should be replaced a year after it hits Europe. The Sky is still fresh and still has a ways to go before anything is changed. The Vue should stay the same for a few years before being changed. The Outlook, I think is a much better deal and much better looking than the upcoming Traverse. The taillights on the Traverse put me off, its a Chevy, not a VW!!! I think Saturn should cut the Outlook though because it doesn't really fit into their European image and be replaced with Opel's answer to the minivan. GM should have atleast one offering in this category. The Corsa is a good idea too, anything not to have the Pontiac G3!!!!!!!!!!!

[jckjds]

I don't think it's reasonable to keep all of these brands anymore. It seems clear that spreading the money around is getting more and more difficult. Thus, GM really needs to clean up its brands, limit the number of models it is producing, and make the best cars possible to fill the brands that it keeps.

Saturn doesn't sell that many cars, so lost volume isn't a huge concern. Saturn doesn't have very many dealerships, either, so that's not a huge deal. So, cut Saturn.

Then, I still think you align Buick with Opel. Opel is making more upscale cars that, to me, look and peform like a Buick should. OTOH, I don't think Opel is fitting with Pontiac's performance image. To be sure, they have a couple of performance variants, but by and large, it's an upscale, but mainstream-type brand -- i.e. Buick. Plus, the new Insignia LOOKS like a buick. Someone should chop it with a Buick grill -- it would probably look pretty nice.

Anyway, Pontiac is better paired with Holden. It should have Solstice (unique to Pontiac, but another brand could get the Sky), a G6 (Alpha), and a G8 (Zeta) with coupe, wagon,convertible, and hi-po variants. I suppose a hi performance subcompact could be okay (like a hotted up Cruze or even a Gamma subcompact, but performance oriented ones only!).

Anyway, these tie-ups make Pontiac and Buick almost FREE brands -- meaning the development of nearly all of their vehicles is shared with another brand. They should be, for the most part, rebadges of Opels and Holdens. If designed for US standards from the get-go, there should be no need to re-engineer anything for the American market.

But, this must just make too much sense for GM's upper management.

[carscomblogger]

It was said a few years ago many times but I think it is truer today: Saturn should be a hybrid only channel. That would make it SUPER simple to promote/market.

Every model has a hybrid version.

And you downsize. You don't sell the Outlook. You don't sell the Aura. You sell small efficient cars, and hybrid SUVs.

If that means your lineup is
Vue
Astra
Sky

so be it.
Boost capacity of the 2-mode and plug-in Vues instead of spreading around Aura production and outlook production. Everyone is going to bat down the doors for the 2 mode Vue. It's one of the best SUVs on the market IMHO and the current mild version is sold out as is.

Add a smaller car too, a version of the Beat. Or a competitor for the xB, Cube, Element. Doesn't matter as long as they're all fuel efficient and/or hybrids. It will be super simple to sell them then.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

I dont have the figures, but I wonder how much the Aura sells compared to the G6? Anyone have a clue? If the G6, with a dated interior and aging look, sells more units than the Aura, one would have to wonder if this doesn't come down solely to brand awareness, advertising, marketing, and the like.

G6 = 98,943 through July (up 20% over 2007)(44% fleet according to Automotive Fleet)
Aura = 40,140 through July (up 21.4% over 2007)(22% fleet according to Automotive Fleet)

Originally Posted by nadepalma

As you say, the Astra is a great product - why doesn't it sell? Is it merely because it's a hatchback in a market that doesn't really appreciate them? More to the point, did Ion sales last year at this time outstrip where the Astra is now? That would be an even more frightening prospect if proven true...

That's kind of like comparing sales of the Grand Prix and G8. In both cases, the new products are clearly superior but sell a much lower volume.

[jomo]

Guys,
I'm really starting to perceive this site not as: GM-Inside News, but more as GM Gloom-and-Doom News. Can we talk about something positive? What happened to talking about the CARS?! Between one poster's ceaseless bleating about "smaller cars, man... Americans can get by with smaller cars...", another poster's endless negative rants about the models certain brands OUGHT to sell, and of course Buickman... I almost don't want to come here anymore.

Moderators? Can we put a moratorium on negative news for like a MONTH?!

[guitarlix]

Originally Posted by megeebee

I agree with BRAVADA. The Outlook was a mistake for the Saturn brand. With the Traverse coming for Chevrolet, I think the Outlook should die. Sales of the Vue might inch up if there were no Outlook.

The Astra is a grearter puzzlement. According to Automotive News Data Center, only 5900 had sold so far this year, through July 31. In comparison, the Outlook has sold 15,428 which is down 22% from last year.

Saturn totals were off nearly 18% from last year for the same period.

What the hell is wrong????

What the hell is wrong??

What the heck is wrong with you people. Go back and search for my name with Saturn in it. That'll tell you everything wrong with Saturn and why the brand won't work.

[nadepalma]

Ah, excellent Lichtronamo!! What site did you get these figures from?

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

G6 = 98,943 through July (up 20% over 2007)(44% fleet according to Automotive Fleet)
Aura = 40,140 through July (up 21.4% over 2007)(22% fleet according to Automotive Fleet)

So that means both products sales are up roughly 20% over last year, but the Pontiac still sells more non-fleet/retail units than the Aura - even despite a higher percentage of Pontiacs going to fleet (roughly 55,403 retail G6 units v. 31,309 retail Aura units).

That is interesting - and a little disappointing.

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

That's kind of like comparing sales of the Grand Prix and G8. In both cases, the new products are clearly superior but sell a much lower volume.

Perhaps. But as you say, they are superior products, but still haven't caught on. The Ion was a POS compared to the Astra for certain, but its priced a bit higher and GM arguably loses money on each one as the dollar is relatively low compared to the Euro.

As for the Grand Prix and the G8 - yeah, it's not an entirely fair comparison. But considering that the Grand Prix used to retail staring in the low-$20s - and the G8 starts around $27K or so - there is no doubt that the volume will never be made up for. Remember, this is all part of what direction Pontiac will go in - if it becomes more of a volume brand, then the G8 is the wrong product for Pontiac since it wont sell enough of them to make dealers happy as GMC sales continue to fall. If it will remain a "niche" like division, then the current G8 is probably better suited for Pontiac.

Neverthless, there is NO denying the G8 is VASTLY superior to the Grand Prix, but still far too expensive to make a dent in the market. On top of that, importing it from Australia has to cost GM a ton of money.

[agent.theory]

I'm going to recommend the worst scenario for Pontiac fans like me. In order for GM to survive, the number of divisions must be non-overlapping. GM cannot survive as long as its brands compete with each other. That means two divisions only: Chevy and Cadillac.

The best cars of the others can be divvied up:

G8 to Chevy as the new Impala, and a luxury version to Cadillac as the new STS

Vue to Chevy

Astra to Chevy, but with far more trim choices.

Solstice to Chevy

The Enclave and the new Invicta look great and could go to Cadillac as all-wheel drive models.

Everything else is overlap. The main problem is, GM can't afford this kind of radical restructuring, for various reasons that are all well known. But they can't continue with today's divisions either. As a long-time Pontiac driver, I hate to say that there is no place for Pontiac anymore, and GM is nearly out of capital. The proposed government loans will only forestall the inevitable--the collapse of General Motors.