Buick, Pontiac & GMC To Get 12 New Vehicles Over The Next 20 Months - No Trans Am

[New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66]

No surprises here. I think we all new the next "F-body" type car for Pontiac was going to be the restyled, subtley heritage Zeta GTO.

But inlight of the new CAFE which don't take "full affect" until 2020, and inlight of the Hyundia Genisis and inlight of the the fact that Lexus and Infiniti are not going to let CAFE stand in their way of their committment to RWD. GM needs a good lineup of RWD Zetas. A Camaro, Impala, GTO and Buick GNX should make ample use of the Zeta. All four of those products should be a 28 mpg product, based upon my experience with the previous gen Z28 and Corvette. Then charge the customer for the 0.1 mpg penalty. BMW does. The consumer of a RWD product will more than likely be willing to pay the penalty. For many consumers this will be their "summer car". And the other single consumers who live in a nice climate will also be willing to pay the penalty.

[racy]

Originally Posted by tholland

So there it is. There is no point in saving Pontiac if indeed that is the case. So has GM thrown in the towel?

I feel sick!

Has Pontiac been the performance division in the last 30 years? I don't know why this comes as a surprise to anyone. This entire board is in denial about Pontiac.

Pontiac is merely a "gap filler", providing a few products not covered by Buick and GMC. My prediction is Buick will expand and Pontiac will disappear.

[osv_alero]

They didn't say they would kill Pontiac. They stated they have to rethink the direction of performance. Don't read into what some writer says about a division that probably isn't true. GM isn't just going to dump what Pontiac stands for. What they are probably referring to is the use of big V8 engine vehicles. As much as we all love them, GM, nor anybody else, can make cars like that because of the new cafe standard. It said nothing of getting rid of vehicles like the Solstice or the idea of a 3-series type sedan / coupe.

As far as Buick goes. There is NO WAY GM would get rid of a division that is tying lexus in quality. Buick is attracting a much younger buyer right now, and with China, is one of GM's most promising divisions. The only division not sold world wide and on the up swing is Pontiac. I'm not saying they should close Pontiac, but I am saying Buick is a much more valuable name to GM than Pontiac is at this point.

[dratnol]

Originally Posted by FierySolstice

Thank you! Finally someone agrees about Buick NA.

Wow, so you just said that you would never buy GM again if they "killed" Pontiac. Then you turn right around and promote the idea of "killing" Buick. You are a real piece of work. Buick sells more cars world wide then Pontiac does.

"Killing" (I guess phasing out or discontinuing isn't sensational enough) brands is not the answer. Look at the Olds mess as the textbook example of what happens.

[FenwickHockey65]

Nobody said GM's turnaround was going to be pretty. Sacrifices need to be made. I'm sure that GM won't axe Pontiac, but they're going to have to wait a few more years before GM can concentrate on their performance-oriented vehicles. Remember, the general public for the most part don't think like we do here at GMI. They want a lot of elements all wrapped up into one car. Once GM satisfies their needs, they can concentrate on bringing Pontiac back up into their performance division.

[dratnol]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

No surprises here. I think we all new the next "F-body" type car for Pontiac was going to be the restyled, subtley heritage Zeta GTO.

But inlight of the new CAFE which don't take "full affect" until 2020, and inlight of the Hyundia Genisis and inlight of the the fact that Lexus and Infiniti are not going to let CAFE stand in their way of their committment to RWD. GM needs a good lineup of RWD Zetas. A Camaro, Impala, GTO and Buick GNX should make ample use of the Zeta. All four of those products should be a 28 mpg product, based upon my experience with the previous gen Z28 and Corvette. Then charge the customer for the 0.1 mpg penalty. BMW does. The consumer of a RWD product will more than likely be willing to pay the penalty. For many consumers this will be their "summer car". And the other single consumers who live in a nice climate will also be willing to pay the penalty.

I think that Pontiac needs to expand beyond the idea of V8 and RWD. Lets use the 2.8l turbo that Saab has or lets see something along the lines of TwinForce at Pontiac. Smaller, lighter cars would help too.

[zete]

In the end I figure both Buick and Pontiac are going to be niche brands -- already are in my opinion. So 5 for Buick, 5 for Pontiac. In other words, match it up pretty much against Lexus for Buick and BMW for Pontiac (not that I'm saying that Pontiac will compete with BMW but rather that they should have the same size lineup, excluding trucks which go to GMC).

Thus, Buick has:

• Lacrosse/Regal (entry level Buick)
• Lucerne/Park Avenue (upscale Buick)
• 5-pass "baby" Enclave (for those wanting 5 seats and a smaller overall vehicle)
• Enclave
• Riviera (halo car, limited production with the DI v6 only)

While Pontiac has

• Solstice (hardtop and convertible)
• RWD G4 (1 series class, coupe only)
• RWD G6 (3 series class, 4-door and coupe)
• RWD G8 (5 series class, 4-door only)
• GTO

The G6, G8, and GTO are all on the same platform with the GTO really being no more than a 2 door G8 specially badged and v8 only and produced in limited numbers.

And, yeah, I know Lutz said the GTO is not coming back anytime soon, but that doesn't preclude it coming back. If I were creating one more car for Pontiac it'd be a high-end 2 seater based off either a last-gen Corvette platform or a stretched Kappa. That could come in two flavours: DI v6 or small-block v8. Again, limited production.

I think it'd be nice to have a G4 and G6 convertible, but that might increase costs way too much. A panoramic roof might be best.

[tholland]

Originally Posted by racy

Has Pontiac been the performance division in the last 30 years? I don't know why this comes as a surprise to anyone. This entire board is in denial about Pontiac.

Mostly not... you are right there. But the talk from GM for the last 3 or 4 years has been that the brand would finally be made into what it should have been for the last 30yrs. So my problem may not be denial... but it looks now like it might be false hope.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by zete

• 5-pass "baby" Enclave (for those wanting 5 seats and a smaller overall vehicle)

That may end up being a rebadged Equinox/Terrain...

[zete]

Originally Posted by dratnol

I think that Pontiac needs to expand beyond the idea of V8 and RWD. Lets use the 2.8l turbo that Saab has or lets see something along the lines of TwinForce at Pontiac. Smaller, lighter cars would help too.

Exactly. Pontiac can have performance and reasonable mileage from smaller displacement engines. If you look at my prior post on what Pontiac should have, most of those cars can come with the turbo 4 in the Solstice and have good performance. Performance is MORE than just how fast you go to 60. It's also about cornering, handling, responsiveness, etc. If it goes like snot to 60 but handles like a cow it won't garner any performance buyers.

Instead, take the Solstice, G4, G6, and G8 and dump two engines into each with the GTO only having one engine:

• Solstice: 4-cyl, turbo-4
• G4: 4-cyl, turbo-4
• G6: turbo-4, DI 6
• G8: DI 6, v8
• GTO: v8

Then, ensure the mix is such that v8s are hard to get. You up your mileage numbers for your Pontiac fleet by ensuring it's easier to get a G4 or G6 than a G8. And then, make the G8 with the v8 even harder to get. Load it up with options standard so that someone who wants a v8 G8 pays and those wanting to be frugal will have to settle for a v6.

That's one way of focusing things while still maintaining a performance angle.

Also, lighten all the vehicles up to eek out a few mpg. Slim 200lbs off the Solstice and 400 off the G8. Every mpg counts in this thing.

In the end I expect Pontiac to sell about 300,000 - 400,000 vehicles a year. That means the number of G8s would be in the 40 - 50,000 range. Pontiac would probably sell about 20 - 30,000 GTOs and another 20,000 Solstices. While the G4 and G6 would sell the remaining 200 - 300,000 cars at Pontiac. Quite doable with the right flavour of cars coming out of Pontiac: Reasonably priced performance.

edit: BTW, the reason I have the turbo-4 in the heavier cars is because it gets better mileage, to say nothing of having more oomph. A win-win. I do think the base 4s need to get MUCH better mileage, the sooner the better.

[zete]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

[/list]That may end up being a rebadged Equinox/Terrain...

Do as well as they did with the Provoq and it'll do wonderfully well. I know a couple of friends who bought a Ford, Toyota, or Acura simply because Buick didn't have a 5-pass, smaller version of the Enclave.

[gardnet1]

Maybe Pontiac should be the Turbo-charged Division. They could even slather their entire lineup with modern turbo-diesels from Europe. And because they would all be in the same dealerships, GM would have an easier time integrating CRD diesels and training techs. This would amount to tons of torque, fuel economy and durable drivetrains. A nice niche that only the Germans can compete with them on and they are all priced much higher than Pontiac in the market.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by FierySolstice

GM KILL BUICK!!!!!!!! They should of done that years ago!! We don't need your old people cars anymore!!! We have Cadillac and Saturn to fill the void! We NEED Pontiac! If GM cuts Pontiac, then I really don't think I'll buy another GM car after I'm done with this one. I'll go German, or even Japenese before I go back to a company that killed my favorite brand!

You have to realize that Buick is destined to be a Chinese brand first and a NA brand second. Any sales in the US of Buicks is gravy on top of what they'll produce for China. Buick also provides the opportunity for greater economies of scale with a large rwd car for Austrailia and the Middle East that Pontiac could never achieve. Figure GM could sell as many Zeta based Lucernes as Pontiac G8s and you have to wonder why they bothered at all.

[zete]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

You have to realize that Buick is destined to be a Chinese brand first and a NA brand second. Any sales in the US of Buicks is gravy on top of what they'll produce for China. Buick also provides the opportunity for greater economies of scale with a large rwd car for Austrailia and the Middle East that Pontiac could never achieve. Figure GM could sell as many Zeta based Lucernes as Pontiac G8s and you have to wonder why they bothered at all.

This is the key. GM is going to sell the same car here as they do elsewhere and just badge it differently. Hence the G8 here vs. Commodore in Australia. All the Opels in Europe are Saturns here. As you point out, it reshapes how GM works. I think people don't see this because they look here and assume GM is ONLY making these models for North America. There are North America-specific models, like the Enclave, but most of GM's models are world-focused and that's the difference. Part of the reason GM wasted so much money in the past is because they had so much duplication. Now they're opting for a lot of sharing from design all the way through to the production of the cars. That's how a global company thinks, and that's something GM only started doing about 6 or 7 years ago and is only NOW starting to do in earnest.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by gardnet1

Maybe Pontiac should be the Turbo-charged Division. They could even slather their entire lineup with modern turbo-diesels from Europe. And because they would all be in the same dealerships, GM would have an easier time integrating CRD diesels and training techs. This would amount to tons of torque, fuel economy and durable drivetrains. A nice niche that only the Germans can compete with them on and they are all priced much higher than Pontiac in the market.

Saturn fills this need by rebadging Opels and provides greater distinction from Chevrolet.