Buick, Pontiac & GMC To Get 12 New Vehicles Over The Next 20 Months - No Trans Am

[Smoothcat]

Originally Posted by bigtime

I think GM is trying to position pontiac as a bmw-like performance luxury brand -albeit a less expensive alternative. If thats the case, a pony car wouldn't make sense. The only ones who remember GTO's, firebirds, etc. are the ones who used to own one or grew up wanting one. Everybody else gets there knowledge of past pontiacs from shows like "Motorweek", and frankly laughs. They were good in a straight line and thats about all.

Unless pontiac can guarantee to future buyers of a pony car that their hair will grow back or their beer gut will disappear, I think its a wiser business move to move away from the pony car and mature a bit.

With that said, if the market needs yet another pony car or pontiac needs a boost you can bet their will be a firebird or trans am.

I understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent. There are stigmas attached to the pony cars, no doubt. It seems like the Camaro and Firebird suffer more from this than the Mustangs do. But you seem to think that the ONLY people interested in potentially buying a Firebird are an older group. Is this the truth? And I ask that not really knowing an answer. I mean, I'm 25 and I know that a lot of people I went to high school with had late model F-bodies. I would imagine if some of them have money to spare they would still be interested in a new one. As for teenagers now, that's what I'm not sure about. They have spent their youth watching crap like "Fast and the Furious" and watching the ricers be the so-called epitome of "cool". So I'm not sure they would look at a Camaro or Firebird the same as some of us do. That's an area where I think GM's overall image is still holding them back. Get those kids behind the wheel though, and I think you could change their minds.

As far as Pontiac being a "poor man's BMW", I have no problem with it, but does that mean they can only offer vehicles that have a direct BMW competitor? I'm not sure there are enough wanna-be Euro-snobs to prop such a brand up. Pontiac just needs to focus on putting out cars that are fun to drive, regardless of engine size, which wheels drive it, or what the competition does.

[Vette Ninja]

Originally Posted by Smoothcat

I understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent. There are stigmas attached to the pony cars, no doubt. It seems like the Camaro and Firebird suffer more from this than the Mustangs do. But you seem to think that the ONLY people interested in potentially buying a Firebird are an older group. Is this the truth? And I ask that not really knowing an answer. I mean, I'm 25 and I know that a lot of people I went to high school with had late model F-bodies. I would imagine if some of them have money to spare they would still be interested in a new one. As for teenagers now, that's what I'm not sure about. They have spent their youth watching crap like "Fast and the Furious" and watching the ricers be the so-called epitome of "cool". So I'm not sure they would look at a Camaro or Firebird the same as some of us do. That's an area where I think GM's overall image is still holding them back. Get those kids behind the wheel though, and I think you could change their minds.

As far as Pontiac being a "poor man's BMW", I have no problem with it, but does that mean they can only offer vehicles that have a direct BMW competitor? I'm not sure there are enough wanna-be Euro-snobs to prop such a brand up. Pontiac just needs to focus on putting out cars that are fun to drive, regardless of engine size, which wheels drive it, or what the competition does.

Just as any other teenage fad, it faded quickly. Fast and the Furious stopped being relevant when I was still in grade school. And the sequels didn't revive the franchise.

I am seventeen and am I proud owner of a four and a half gen F-body. So I was shopping for my first car today. . .
I wasn't even old enough to drive back in the day when Pontiac used to make exciting cars. But, the day I could drive one, I bought myself the best car ever made. The Pontiac Firebird. A young man's car.

Pontiac isn't a person. It shouldn't "mature". It should stick to the same specialty generation after generation. Just like every successful auto maker. Trying to reinvent is what's killing Pontiac. Go back to 2002 and start over from there, Pontiac. Pretend the last six model years didn't happen.

[hotrod747]

Originally Posted by mrgto

They will....it's called a Z/28.

A Z/28 and no Pontiac T/A? And I will stay in my 330Ci!

[vam29]

The overriding issue could be the weak dollar not whether rear wheel drive cars imported from Australia will seriously handicap GM with the proposed CAFE standards. Look for the Holden/Pontaic rw drive wagon if the dollar drops within range of making it a profitable import. The G8-ST-G8 wagon would be too good a marketing coup to easily dismiss.

[S1L1SC]

Originally Posted by vam29

The overriding issue could be the weak dollar not whether rear wheel drive cars imported from Australia will seriously handicap GM with the proposed CAFE standards. Look for the Holden/Pontaic rw drive wagon if the dollar drops within range of making it a profitable import. The G8-ST-G8 wagon would be too good a marketing coup to easily dismiss.

Just bring the damn wagon over already. I'll take mine in the metallic green or yellow. And put the BIG engine in it - I would even be willing to pay an additional 2-3k over what the GXP would cost just to get the wagon.

Just get it over here by mid-2009 when I am looking to buy.

[Col Klink]

Originally Posted by MCGARRETT

Woud'nt it be awsome if Pontiac went after the turbo charged 4 banger AWD performance market?, that way Pontiac could have performance cars that are different, exciting and all meeting the 35mpg CAFE standards, right? After all compact turbocharged 4 cylinder car have to be way way way way more efficient than those old heavy V8 dinosaurs right?

Not really...

Here is lies the rub, using Kelly Blue Book's online site I took a random sample of small 4 cylinder AWD/RWD sport(ty) cars, all with turbocharged engines, all compact, all under 2 tons and compared them to a sample of larger, heavier V8 powered cars.



2007 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX 19/25 3285lbs

2007 Subaru Impreza STI 19/25 3351lbs

2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP 22/31 2976lbs


2002 Trans Am 19/28 3499lbs

2008 Pontiac G8 V8 automatic 15/24 3995lbs

2007 Chrysler 300C AWD 17/25 4251lbs

2006 Pontiac GTO 17/25 3725lbs




I dont have a solution, but as the evidence shows, smaller cars, with smaller displacment motors tuned for performance arent really any more efficient than V8 powered larger cars, even the 6 year old LS1 5.7 litre equipped heavy Trans Am provides comparable MPG to a 2.0 litre turbocharged lighter car. Even the porker of the comparo, the AWD 4200lb + 300C with a 5.7 litre Hemi is in the ballpark. The only slight advantage that the smaller motors have is in the city MPG, and even then, it's not by much.

A small 2+2 coupe using the Kappa/Alpha/Bravo whatever platform and the SIDI 2.0 litre turbo might would be a good fit, but even tha would get worse MPG than the Solstice's 22/31 due to the added weight of even a vestigal rear seat.


Even small RWD performance coupes and sedans like the BMW 335 and Lexus IS250, which probably represent close what GM's Alpha based cars will be in size and weight don't really get significantly better MPG than heavier larger V8 powered sedans

I agree turbo cars are not necessarily the answer, I've driven a few turbo cars (the are very popular down here, esp with the "boy racers") they guzzle gas with the best V8's - not to mention the rotaries!

I think GM does well to get big displacement V8's to get good economy (in a sedan/coupe - obviously crap in the tank weight trucks you guys seem to love- why no guzzler tax on those who knows - insane). The V8 Commodores may "only have the L76 but for the fuel use I think the power is great (and underrated at 270kw).

GM should take another leaf out of their 60's rule book and slap a new nose and tail on the Camaro & brand it Trans Am. Also they need to get the Beat out ASAP!

[TriShield]

Many people want a new 'Cuda, that doesn't mean Chrysler should make one.

An aftermarket company is making 'Cuda badges, body parts and graphics for the new Challenger so fanatics can make their own.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone makes Firebird parts for the new Camaro.

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by Col Klink

I agree turbo cars are not necessarily the answer, I've driven a few turbo cars (the are very popular down here, esp with the "boy racers") they guzzle gas with the best V8's - not to mention the rotaries!

I think GM does well to get big displacement V8's to get good economy (in a sedan/coupe - obviously crap in the tank weight trucks you guys seem to love- why no guzzler tax on those who knows - insane). The V8 Commodores may "only have the L76 but for the fuel use I think the power is great (and underrated at 270kw).

GM should take another leaf out of their 60's rule book and slap a new nose and tail on the Camaro & brand it Trans Am. Also they need to get the Beat out ASAP!

I would like to see the 5.3L pumped up to 375-400hp with VVT and DI etc.

That will surely get better fuel milage than a Twin Turo Four Banger.

Throw that in an Alpha G6 for the new GXP, call the coupe the Firebird.

[CharlotteFirebird]

Originally Posted by schmallz

I would like to see the 5.3L pumped up to 375-400hp with VVT and DI etc.

That will surely get better fuel milage than a Twin Turo Four Banger.

Throw that in an Alpha G6 for the new GXP, call the coupe the Firebird.

I agree.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by zete

In the end I figure both Buick and Pontiac are going to be niche brands -- already are in my opinion. So 5 for Buick, 5 for Pontiac. In other words, match it up pretty much against Lexus for Buick and BMW for Pontiac (not that I'm saying that Pontiac will compete with BMW but rather that they should have the same size lineup, excluding trucks which go to GMC).

Thus, Buick has:

• Lacrosse/Regal (entry level Buick)
• Lucerne/Park Avenue (upscale Buick)
• 5-pass "baby" Enclave (for those wanting 5 seats and a smaller overall vehicle)
• Enclave
• Riviera (halo car, limited production with the DI v6 only)

While Pontiac has

• Solstice (hardtop and convertible)
• RWD G4 (1 series class, coupe only)
• RWD G6 (3 series class, 4-door and coupe)
• RWD G8 (5 series class, 4-door only)
• GTO

The G6, G8, and GTO are all on the same platform with the GTO really being no more than a 2 door G8 specially badged and v8 only and produced in limited numbers.

And, yeah, I know Lutz said the GTO is not coming back anytime soon, but that doesn't preclude it coming back. If I were creating one more car for Pontiac it'd be a high-end 2 seater based off either a last-gen Corvette platform or a stretched Kappa. That could come in two flavours: DI v6 or small-block v8. Again, limited production.

I think it'd be nice to have a G4 and G6 convertible, but that might increase costs way too much. A panoramic roof might be best.

I would agree with most of what you have for Pontiac although my line up is broader with low end FWD models and I moved Pontiac to join Saturn and add a Firebird model to the G6 line with the focus on Infiniti G35/G37 opposed to 3-series BMW. Also the G8 based on the Zeta opposed to the Alpha and is more 7-series in size but will sell more to 5-series customers on price, although I think a case could be made for a 5-series size Pontiac.

But, with all that being said GM could do a lot worse things with Pontiac than you have suggested and your line up will ensure Pontiac survives.

Only “must do” change I would make is add the Trans Am as what it has been in the past a Camaro variant except with limited production and V8 only power with base 5.3L and “Super Duty” 6.2L versions.

On the issue of spending $200 million to “launch it” - Why?

How much has Chrysler spent on the Challenger?

Yet the first year Challenger production is nearly sold out, word of mouth on sites like this and at automotive “events” will sell every one of the “limited production” models that Pontiac builds.

[Vette Ninja]

Originally Posted by Col Klink

GM should take another leaf out of their 60's rule book and slap a new nose and tail on the Camaro & brand it Trans Am.

Don't forget the sides too. Cummon' GM, no one will get blame you if the new Trans Am is just a Camaro rebadge. So just do it already!! Just like in '67. Introduce it 6-months after the 'Maro and surprise everybody!!

Originally Posted by TriShield

Many people want a new 'Cuda, that doesn't mean Chrysler should make one.

An aftermarket company is making 'Cuda badges, body parts and graphics for the new Challenger so fanatics can make their own.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone makes Firebird parts for the new Camaro.

That doesn't apply Plymouth doesn't exist anymore.
Most importantly, a few aftermarket parts would be YET ANOTHER slap in the face for Firebird fans. I wouldn't be surprised if disgruntled Pontiac fans just bought Dodges instead. And how would an aftermarket company get the rights to make money of such badges and parts when Pontiac and Trans Am don't even let video games use and advertise their products' names anymore?!
Another thing. Pontiac needs a Firebird more than Chevy needs a Camaro. GM's excitement brand doesn't even have just one RWD V8 coupe!!

[yoblues]

The old GM problem of having far to many brands surfaces again.

[*JC*]

Originally Posted by hotrod747

I have to agree with him. If they're not making what I want, why should I waste my time and money. I don't want a Buick, Chevy, Saturn or Caddy. I want a performance rwd Pontiac. Now if GM continuously ignore this, the obvious thing to do is look elsewhere.

I agree...

Seeing how General Motors is secretively doing it's best to strangle the Pontiac Division to death. There is little that we can do about it but if they are thinking that we will switch to another GM brand they better think again!

I'll still have my Pontiac's I'll just invest my money in the 5,10,15,20 and 30 year old ones. When I go to buy something new it won't be anything made by General Motors... How you like them apples Mr. Lutz!



"On the issue of spending $200 million to “launch it”
Total BS, I could put a team together that could do it for a 1/3 as much. They just don't know how to do things!

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by *JC*

I agree...

Seeing how General Motors is secretively doing it's best to strangle the Pontiac Division to death. There is little that we can do about it but if they are thinking that we will switch to another GM brand they better think again!

I'll still have my Pontiac's I'll just invest my money in the 5,10,15,20 and 30 year old ones. When I go to buy something new it won't be anything made by General Motors... How you like them apples Mr. Lutz!



"On the issue of spending $200 million to “launch it”
Total BS, I could put a team together that could do it for a 1/3 as much. They just don't know how to do things!

Exactly, does GM not realize the un-tapped market that is affordable RWD products?

Currently there is the Mustang, 350Z and Charger.

GM needs to focus their brands on seperate markets with the least over lap possible.

There is way to much overlap between Saab, Saturn, Buick and Chevy.

A strictly RWD Pontiac Line up would barely step on the toes of the Camaro.

[stoney 81ta]

Personally all this talk about killing pontaic,to me is nonsense i would love to see a next generation trans am to compete with the camaro,owning a second gen Ta and to see a 2008-2009 model i think would boost gm future in the auto market.