QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

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Thread: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

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    QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Automotive News
    January 10, 2017



    Chevy's Cruze diesel may get EPA 50 mpg highway rating

    The upcoming Chevrolet Cruze diesel sedan and hatchback could be the first nonhybrid cars sold in the U.S. since the late 1980s to get an EPA highway rating of 50 mpg or more.

    Speaking Monday on the sidelines of the Detroit auto show, Mark Reuss, GM’s product development chief, said: “I think it will start with a 5,” when asked what the highway fuel economy of the new Cruze diesel might be.

    The Cruze diesel is awaiting EPA certification; it is expected to be available this spring.

    The new version features an all-new 1.6-liter turbodiesel with an aluminum cylinder block that is lighter and more powerful than the old Cruze diesel engine, which had a cast-iron block. Chevrolet will offer the new Cruze with a nine-speed automatic or a six-speed manual transmission. GM hopes the six-speed manual will appeal to former Volkswagen customers who are leaving that brand.

    Mike Siegrist, chief engineer for the Cruze diesel, would not confirm a 50 mpg highway rating, but he said the outgoing version’s 44 mpg would be topped. “We don’t usually go backwards,” Siegrist said. “We know how to do this stuff.”

    The Cruze with the six-speed manual, Siegrist said, will get higher fuel economy than the model with the nine-speed automatic.

    The new turbodiesel engine is rated at 137 hp and 240 pounds-feet of torque. Most of that power comes on low in the rpm range, Siegrist said. In addition to delivering high fuel economy, Siegrist said another key push for the Cruze is refinement.

    “We’ve taken a totally different approach to address noise at the source,” he said. The cam timing details, for instance, are at the back of the engine, instead of the front. And to keep diesel chatter low, the fuel injectors shoot as many as 10 squirts of fuel per stroke.

    GM plans to use the same 1.6-liter diesel engine in the Chevrolet Equinox and GMC Terrain crossovers.

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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    The Cruze with the six-speed manual, Siegrist said, will get higher fuel economy than the model with the nine-speed automatic.
    As much as I thought GM was being nice to the "save the manual" purists, now we know the real reason a manual transmission will be offered; marketing.

    No problem however, whatever it takes to get one is fine with me. And to those who will no doubt put down the diesel engine concept; some advise: Simply drive one (with a manual transmission). Then you will understand.



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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by Perian View Post
    As much as I thought GM was being nice to the "save the manual" purists, now we know the real reason a manual transmission will be offered; marketing.

    No problem however, whatever it takes to get one is fine with me. And to those who will no doubt put down the diesel engine concept; some advise: Simply drive one (with a manual transmission). Then you will understand.



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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    How is it that gas engines now seem to have better mpg's with the auto (especially 9 speeds vs. 6 speeds), but the diesel is getting better with the manual? Just curious... Can anyone explain to me?

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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by dslay04 View Post
    Grabbing those Golf TDI and Jetta TDI buyers
    If they are serious about that, they'll have to offer a Cruze wagon.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by Perian View Post
    And to those who will no doubt put down the diesel engine concept; some advise: Simply drive one (with a manual transmission). Then you will understand.
    Heck, drive one with the automatic.

    It's so much better than the weak sisters that are powered by gasoline.
    The mileage is just a bonus. Fuel isn't even more expensive.
    The other day it was 10 cents more than Corn Gas that comes with a mileage penalty and 10 cents less than No Corn Gas.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    While that would be a fantastic effort, I can see GM getting more sales tractions with a diesel Equinox or Envision,
    Compact to mid sized Utes seem to be the growth market and all eyes seem to be on those vehicles.
    If GM gets 44 mpg in those Utes, I think it will be on a winner with consumers...

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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    While that would be a fantastic effort, I can see GM getting more sales tractions with a diesel Equinox or Envision,
    Compact to mid sized Utes seem to be the growth market and all eyes seem to be on those vehicles.
    If GM gets 44 mpg in those Utes, I think it will be on a winner with consumers...
    Yep. Same story as Voltec. GM is predominantly placing fuel saving technologies in cars that are already fuel efficient. Let's see a diesel and Voltec Acadia, where they can charge more for it, and where it benefits the consumer more substantially.

    Here in Ohio, diesel is about 10% more expensive than regular unleaded, and, the last gen diesel Cruze got (very roughly speaking) 10% better economy than the Cruze ECO, so it was close to a wash and hard to justify based on price. And price/cost of ownership is a primary driver with compact cars. Not so with midsize crossovers where the premium torque of a diesel doesn't have to "pencil out" financially.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    How is it that gas engines now seem to have better mpg's with the auto (especially 9 speeds vs. 6 speeds), but the diesel is getting better with the manual? Just curious... Can anyone explain to me?
    Its likely..... a somewhat 'arbitrary' choice driven by Marketing Segmentation Studies or similar.

    Perhaps partially influenced by many other factors - including some about other Markets etc.

    Also as nice as it is..... you are working with 1.6 L.....


    MT TD groups cover a really wide range of typical to somewhat different...... including the 'low build' / hi MPG types.

    Perhaps they also do not want to crowd some other in house AT Products with Batteries......

    If so, and if later, a higher MPG AT is then considered desirable .... do not think it would be all that hard to do.


    ----


    The other one though I'm just as curious about ie why not the 9 sp for the new Equinox / Terrain TDs ?
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-10-2017 at 03:51 PM.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
    While that would be a fantastic effort, I can see GM getting more sales tractions with a diesel Equinox or Envision,
    Compact to mid sized Utes seem to be the growth market and all eyes seem to be on those vehicles.
    If GM gets 44 mpg in those Utes, I think it will be on a winner with consumers...
    That's what I say. I would think that it might be something to generate sales in these SUV's. I like the idea of this diesel in the Cruze getting in the 50 mpg neighborhood. I am reminded of the Nissan Sentra 4 dr. sedan with the 5 spd. manual I had back in 1983 EPA rated at 35/50.

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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGTP View Post
    How is it that gas engines now seem to have better mpg's with the auto (especially 9 speeds vs. 6 speeds), but the diesel is getting better with the manual? Just curious... Can anyone explain to me?
    In most cases even when the auto has higher EPA ratings the manuals get better mileage in the real world, the auto can (and is) programmed to the test loop which is fixed intervals of acceleration, coating, and breaking. Since the auto has no driver input other than accelerator, shift strategy is optimized to the test. Contrast with manuals, for uniformity they have set shift points. This achieves consistency and an element of comparability but shortchanges what can be achieved by anyone who knows how to optimize their inputs to get great mileage out of their manual cars. Shortshifting with larger throttle input in higher gears and reduce pumping loss (at least in throttled motors). So effectively the test handcuffs manuals, while letting autos memorize the test.

    This is compounded for diesels, which make great torque at low rpm, which I'm not sure the test accounts for.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by 377Z View Post
    In most cases even when the auto has higher EPA ratings the manuals get better mileage in the real world, the auto can (and is) programmed to the test loop which is fixed intervals of acceleration, coating, and breaking. Since the auto has no driver input other than accelerator, shift strategy is optimized to the test.

    This is compounded for diesels, which make great torque at low rpm, which I'm not sure the test accounts for.
    The test was biased towards gas (against diesel) at the direction of our lame duck President. Which is why almost all gas powered vehicles achieve about 3-7% below EPA ratings and most diesels achieve 5-7% above. There are other factors at play such as ethanol, but I lumped that into the equation, as not too get too far into the weeds.

    I have thought the crossovers should have gotten a diesel from the beginning, as that is where it would make the biggest impact. My Dad drives an Equinox these days and puts a lot of miles on it, I could see him being a prime candidate for a diesel. Glad GM is finally getting over their narrow mindedness of focusing alternative propulsion in the car market and putting diesel and hopefully voltec in crossovers/SUV's.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    You both..... either have it fully right or very close enough.

    ===

    'One' other thing possibly worth a mention - subject though to new and better - and more complete information.

    With regard to the Highway number, and then separately, with regard to many although not all Real World Driving 'results'.....

    1. ) The right kinda' 5sp. MT ( with the right Fluid / Lubrication System ) especially..... and the right kinda' 6sp (or even 4sp.) MT ..........can have a very low internal power consumption factor. ( Compared to almost all CATS. )

    This is of course only one of many factors involved in an MPG rating or Real World result.

    However, often with regard to an MT / CAT comparison of a certain sort, this can make or break the MT going ahead of the CAT.

    Especially so if the CAT uses a Constant Slip function in the Torque Converter to help deal with NVH and related.

    The characteristics of how that is used plus how 'often' plus 'how much' and or to what degree per rotation and separately per driving cycle etc vary widely and as a result , the effect on fuel economy does as well.

    There are 'typical' relationships with all this based on power outputs, use factors, OEM preferences and intentions, and also displacements, configurations and number of Cylinders.

    All of this btw, can, and often is, overwhelmed by other factors...... but not always.

    2. ) And this discussion goes all different when the AT in question is not some sort of ( Planetary Geartrain plus Torque Converter = CAT ).

    DCTs ( as opposed to CVTs and AMTs etc ) are a whole 'nother of fish to fry because many of them.... by production / sales volume here in the USA, actually get to pick and choose ( in a designer sense ) between two or even three different onboard final drive ratios provided by the gearbox itself. And then they can pick and choose how to utilize those extra onboard / built in final drive ratios. The key group being those that provide and use more than one 'forward' final drive ratio rather than say as an example just to tune Reverse. Typically two are provided forward and in the case of three onboard, the 'third' one for Reverse..... although memory escapes me if that's the current practical limit - think it is or at least was until recently.

    So.... net of net, and grossly over simplified, in sum, a specific 6sp MT may often ( or may not ) enjoy a total configuration advantage over any given CAT.... ( with a possible exception of certain 8HPs and related ) especially in 'top gear' when driven a certain way in certain vehicles etc.

    No TC losses and less power consumption thru the 'Box or Gearbox if you prefer are often the foundation of it - when it occurs.

    3. ) VW Brand offerings of late ( both Gasser and Diesel ) offer something of a clue with all this although because the stupid EPA / fe.gov blanked out the Diesel results it can be a little harder now to 'see'.

    ( You kinda' want to put a thoughtful, somewhat informed eye on all their 5 / 6 sp MTs and ATs - Gassers and Diesels..... over eh, the last five to seven years or so - especially for certain purposes here (but not all), in comparison to their typical range of 6sp DCTs. )

    Notice, many of their current Gassers use a 5sp. Mt for very good effect - both in terms of acceptable or better driving result and same with rated and RW MPG.

    You will 'see' certain somewhat seemingly odd patterns with all this - sigh.... compared to careful examination of many others.

    Including any and all types of vehicles and across all possible MT / AT comparisons within that.

    ( Especially x3, if you look at European offerings and so forth. )

    The other group to look at perhaps a little more keenly at first, has to do with any and all 6sp MT versus their 6sp. DCT behind a 2.0 I4 Diesel ( EA189 / EA288). Again, with even a little more emphasis within all that on the '16s ( which you have to have a sort of real special access to know ) plus the far easier to access ( although still not as easy as normal or it used to be ) 2015 EA288 equipped product.

    The various Passat's are a good group to focus on - if you want to go fast and shallow and just stick to the USA.

    4. ) Imo, not that it matters, it appears possible that the original Cruze 2.0 TD offered recently, kinda' in a limited sense just threw in the towel on the City rating ( versus the relevant VW ) and went after the Highway rating....... while keeping a 'good' eye on the Combined..... in large part because of the specific 6sp CAT / Torque Converter choice actually used.... and how all of it fit together.


    Does not appear at this time ( WAG), the same sort of if you will...... 'Strategy and Tactics' will be used with the next one ie next Diesel Cruze plus CAT. And if that's wrong, then at least enough of the details ( 'Tactics') are different enough to well, make a big enough to note 'Net difference'.

    Keep in mind that across the industry, a certain amount of backward 'progression' ( from the unavoidable increased CAT Geartrain drag and losses ) is being dealt with via newer, Geartrain 'drag reducing' ATFs.

    5. ) However, well worth noting in so many ways for here but also all other on the outside..... this one from GM uses D6 - thankfully although that also means some MPG gain from some dumbass / super expensive ATF was not taken advantage of.

    ( Which they and or Ford ? could chose to build for and take advantage of - later. )
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 01-11-2017 at 01:34 PM.
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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    The Turbo Diesel market in anything but a Heavy Duty Truck is done in the U.S. and even the HD Truck market is going to get shaky with all of the EPA fines and lawsuits.

    Nobody is going to take a chance that their vehicle will not get seized by the Government or be forced to have it bought back by the manufacturer and have no doubt that all of the manufacturers have some controls/software in the emission systems that will draw unwanted attention.

    I would not buy one on a bet.

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    Re: QOTD: "I think it will start with a 5."

    Quote Originally Posted by SierraGS View Post
    The Turbo Diesel market in anything but a Heavy Duty Truck is done in the U.S. and even the HD Truck market is going to get shaky with all of the EPA fines and lawsuits.

    Nobody is going to take a chance that their vehicle will not get seized by the Government or be forced to have it bought back by the manufacturer and have no doubt that all of the manufacturers have some controls/software in the emission systems that will draw unwanted attention.

    I would not buy one on a bet.
    I'll disagree. I think once they get it sorted out things will be fine because only these that have been caught doing the dirty deeds should have to suffer and the others need to step things up and declare their compliance in this matter and doing things the right way, even go so far as major advertising campaigns touting that.

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