OFFICIAL 2010 CAMARO STATS & SPECS released! 300hp / 422hp!

[ConcordeNick]

Hmmmm.... I wonder if that direct injected 3.6 V6 will make it into the Malibu/Aura/G6? It would make a great upgrade for the top of the line models.

Nick

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by wescoent

I have not seen the blueprints, no.

However, if GM cut out AWD capability for Zeta II, the next CTS is DOA. In luxury, it's AWD, or don't even bother.

OK - now I get it, I didn't think that this new Zeta platform might be the converged one that the CTS will get.

I'm still hoping against hope that the Camaro gets all the content it can. I figure once it gets past about $50K (AWD, LS9), it can crowd the C7 to the point that they would make it mid-engined...

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by Tone

And, regarding bump steer: there was a time not too long ago when the advantage of a SRA over an IRS was its stability. Not to mid-corner bumps so much as to lift throttle behaviour. That's back when most IRSes used a less complex (and cheaper) trailing arm design that had some geometry issues as weight transfered forward under cornering. The more complex (and heavier) multi-link designs that almost all of today's cars use offsets this by adding additional links to better control suspension movement.

Oh yeah, tell me about that one too.

I owned a '77 BMW 320is and the rule was if you were hard in a corner do not lift under any circumstances, lest you wish for the back of the car to become the front and vice-versa.

I'm glad most modern cars don't possess these traits...

[Extreme4x4]

E. Haskell, just one small thing............... D2C shares a portion of the floorboard with DEW98............... and that is all.

Ok, you two can go on bickering back and forth............ about 2 cars that you cannot buy today, tomorrow, or next month............. and that neither of you have EVER driven or even sat in. In other words, 2 cars that you truly know very little about (a spec sheet really tells you nothing).

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by syr74

I would have figured you would have had enough by now....some people are gluttons for punishment.

You did, however, mention a couple of things worth replying to. First, we'll know soon enough what the sticker on the Camaro is going to be, so there really isn't much point in debating that particular issue. That said, msrp for a GT500 starts at 43,975 with ggt and delivery. If the SS comes in at 29k with delivery, which is what a 15k price advantage would indicate, I'll be the most surprised person on this forum. More than that, at that price point I would be pretty convinced GM wont be making much if any money. The cold, hard truth is that Zeta is an expensive platform and GM already had to low ball one cars price tag, the G8 GT, to little effect. Personally, I don't think we will see another American market car on Zeta outside of those wearing Cadillac badges.

Actually...Zeta/VE are VERY cheap platforms. Not in quality, but in overall cost to design and develop them. When Holden got thier hands on Sigma, the realized that there was much to be done, so they went to a clean sheet design for the rear suspension as well as revamp the front.
From what I have heard from people in the know, the cost for Camaro's Zeta was about as much or a bit more then it cost GM to MCE the 98-02 Camaro, around 250 million dollars over the 1 billion dollar VE platform.

Also, a newer platform doesn't mean a better platform. There is no reason to believe the Camaro's basic underpinnings will be superior to that found under the revised 2010/2011 Mustang outside of the IRS. And while I didn't worry about that discrepancy initially, Camaro is coming in heavy enough (and likely expensive enough) to blunt that advantage IMO.

Camaro will be priced along the likes of Mustang and Challenger.

Styling is subjective...I don't think the Camaro can hold a candle to the current Mustang in this respect....particularly not the GT500. Quality? I wouldn't be surprised if the Camaro uses better materials on the interior but GM has given us no reason thus far to believe the car will be better built than a Mustang. And you will have to weigh superior interior materials against the Camaro's price premium. Comfort. Maybe. The GTO was better in this respect, but we don't know how well the Camaro stacks up to the old Goat yet and we likewise don't know what improvements await the Mustang in this respect. Handling. Even with the IRS...I doubt it. The Camaro weighs to much.

Camaro blows away the Mustang in every styling aspect, including GT500.
Camaro will outdo the Mustang in every single segment.

Nobody said the 5.0L wont be more expensive to build. But Mustang has been a very profitable car for Ford and they have more than a little room to play with the msrp if they need to. And many of the improvements going into the new 5.0L are likewise known quantities. We already know about the major improvement in power even a small increase in bore provides this engine due largely to superior breathing through improved port velocity, particularly on the low end, and overall volume.

Ill put it this way.
If Ford can make a Mustang making 400hp, without increasing price to just under 30k, as well as making it lighter, and having quality interior materials, then I will no longer praise Camaro ever.

We also know a little about how good the heads are, since the 5.0L engine uses a further refinement of the exceptional heads already employed on the GT and GT500. With just those two improvements it is easy to believe the current 4.6L would moved beyond 350hp by some margin. And the upcoming 5.0L has far more in store than just that.

Ill give you 375hp-380hp, but 400 or more...not going to happen without the cost of the engine going up, or quality going down.

[eaton53]

Ill give you 375hp-380hp, but 400 or more...not going to happen without the cost of the engine going up, or quality going down.

I assume you've been inside a Mustang? I don't think the quality could go down...

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Ill put it this way.
If Ford can make a Mustang making 400hp, without increasing price to just under 30k, as well as making it lighter, and having quality interior materials, then I will no longer praise Camaro ever.

Ill give you 375hp-380hp, but 400 or more...not going to happen without the cost of the engine going up, or quality going down.

Define "quality interior materials"...

We'll see, I suppose. I was pretty shocked when Ford got 300hp out of the 2005 Mustang, so I wouldn't be surprised if they met this goal as well.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by eaton53

I assume you've been inside a Mustang? I don't think the quality could go down...

Ahahaha...thank you for adding a little cheer to my day today.

Originally Posted by wescoent

Define "quality interior materials"...

We'll see, I suppose. I was pretty shocked when Ford got 300hp out of the 2005 Mustang, so I wouldn't be surprised if they met this goal as well.

Eh, they were getting 300hp out of DOHC 4.6's for a while, I was actualy perplexed that it didnt put more. I figured that Ford would have been aiming 15-20% higher then the (at the time) Camaro Z28 or about 330-340hp.
I was more shocked when I saw the 4.0 engine show up. At least they could ahve psent the money and put in the Duratec 3.0 into the damn thing.

[JerryL]

Wow, I go out of town for 4 days and I return to find a thread on one of my favorite topics with over 230 comments !!

I've owned 14 Camaro's all Z28 or SS's and a few of the best Mustangs. I just drove a Bullitt Mustang a few weeks ago.....It was a SLED. I liked how it looked only.......everything else about it seemed el cheapo. To me the new Camaro makes me want an SS again. And 325hp 2002 SS's running high 12's let me know that GM horses are still larger than Ford horses. The GT500 is the word's slowest 500hp car, and is awful on the track. The GT500KR corrects most of that but at a huge price...$80,000 Mustang anyone ???
The Mustang has been a tremendous aftermarket success, but the Camaro will be even better. This car will own the SEMA Show for years to come. And wait until GMMG and others get ahold of the Camaro......power will be limited only by your wallet.

I believe this car will mean more to GM than just the sales numbers..... it can reach more segments than the Corvette. It offers more than just transportation to the buyer and GM needs more cars like that.....hopefully it offers affordable sportiness.

[charts.1]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

Now there is some of the huffing and puffing we've all come to expect. To bad that your dramatic declarations of victory are a sure sign that your're up against the ropes. Here we are again with these pulled out of the a** estimates. You still haven't answered my question: are you an engineer at Ford? I'm not sure why you keep dodging my questions. You speak with such certainty on things that you've read on the internet, but have no real world experience with. Have you ever weighed this mythical Mustang IRS you speak off? Link? Pics? Anything? Regardless, it's hilarious to watch someone build long and drawn out "arguments" based on estimates and guesswork.Similar to what? I estimated 100lbs. But what the hay, lets go with your 50lb estimate (I'm feeling generous)

GT500 = 3970lbs (with IRS via your estimate)
Camaro SS = 3860lbs (with IRS)

Now, using YOUR estimate (post #184) of ~230lbs gained by the GT500's block, supercharger and intercooler, that leaves us with 3970lbs - 230lbs = 3740lbs.

For those watching at home, that's a difference of 3860lbs (Camaro) - 3740lbs (GT500) = 120lbs.

So, by your own estimates, an IRS equipped GT500/400hp GT would be 120lbs lighter than a Camaro SS. BIG FREAKIN' DEAL.

Like I've said, if you're THAT worried about weight, do NOT buy a pony car at all - buy a Miata or Elise.

Bottom line - you are a joke. Stop obfuscating. You've answered nothing except in the sentence in bold. I never asked about GM's business plan or how much money you think they'll make so your armchair analysis is a waste of time. I asked where you think they'll price the Camaro - $30,675 sounds reasonable.In all my life I've never known the GTO to be a head-to-head competitor of the Mustang. And by the way chief, the GTO didn't sell well even at heavily discounted prices so obviously price wasn't the issue.Stop obfuscating.

Here are some facts issued today by Leftlane and Edmunds. The 2010 Camaro SS lapped Nurburgring at a lap time of 8:20........The 2008 Cobalt
V6 260 hp lapped the track at 8:22, just 2 seconds less then the heavy weight camaro.....those are facts not speculation that you girls keep pulling each others hair over.

[free_energy0]

The Camaros portly weight is a big disappointment, and will be the cars biggest Achilles heal vis-à-vis the Mustang. GM should realize that not every car needs to be built like a brick ****house, especially with current gas prices. Fortunately, given the G8s outstanding chassis dynamics—not to mention the Mustangs famously numb steering that plows through corners—the Camaro will still win comparison test by virtue of its superior handling.

Here is what Car and Driver had to say about GMs 4000 pound RWD chassis versus Fords stab at a 4000 pound RWD chassis (keep in mind that the Camaro will be 200 lbs. lighter than the G8, and that the GT500 cost 45k):

C/D June 2007: “It’s a strange car—it moves around obsessively when driven hard, with so much body roll and pitch that it’s hard to believe it was designed to perform in such a manner. It is, however, a safe car to drive fast because it is exceptionally predictable, is seemingly impossible to spin, and has brakes that hold up well. Buyers are apparently still paying 10 grand over sticker for GT500s, a phenomenon that continues to mystify us.”

C\D June 2008 : “No car moves five people as deftly and competently as, and for less scratch than, the Pontiac G8 GT. Whether you want to bruise ribs on a short trip up a mountain or cushion backsides for a long haul, the Aussie-sourced G8 GT delivers. The G8 features the best Pontiac interior in decades, which is of course faint praise. It is, however, good enough that the driving-and-riding experience, combined with serious moves, encourages frequent comparison to the BMW 5-series.”

So the Camaro will be a much better handling car than the Mustang, and that is what the auto rags tend to value. For the Mustang, the new GRWD platform can’t get here soon enough.

[1931Chevy]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Ahhhh, the official start of bench racing has begun!!

Let me tell you this. For the Mustang to get another 100hp, its going to need a lot more chassis structure, as well as bigger brakes, stiffer frame, and a more robust rear end and transmissions.
If all that is gunna just come in at 50lbs more then current...I think some of you are dreaming

This is the Law of Cars. And Law of Life
1: Performance
2: Quality
3: Cost
You can only have 2, you must sacrafice one.
If the car is gunna have Camaro SS's performance with the same cost, its gunna be a tin can with rubbermaid interior...aka, what it is now. Chassis flex, poor weight transfer, poor suspension.

Camaro has raised the bar, and now its up to everyone to match it. Camaro has been setting the bar since 1967.
If this 400hp V8 exists, and shows up in Mustang, Ford must sacrafice something.

and until 2002 but the problem here is that I bet that if Camaro sales with v8 aproach 40% of the total sales it will be a miracle with the current gas prices and I think that GM have to focus on the bread and butter midsize and small car market because they need that those sales account for about 60% of all GM total sales if they want to make a profit so if things dont change this might kill GM and the Camaro

[T'Cal]

I really like the current Mustang, especially the look of the V6 model with the Pony Package (Loaded: $25K coupe/$30k convt.). The Challenger is beautiful but I'm guessing an RT coupe will be priced in the about $10k more ($5k more than a GT). I'm guessing the Camaro will be closer to the Dodge in price than the Ford and it's unlikely that Chevy and Dodge will have to deal on them for a while. The real advantage for me is that the Dodge is bigger than both and seats five; it's really a midsize muscle car and not a compact pony car like the other two. But $10-15k more?? I don't know if I can justify that.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by charts.1

Here are some facts issued today by Leftlane and Edmunds. The 2010 Camaro SS lapped Nurburgring at a lap time of 8:20........The 2008 Cobalt
V6 260 hp lapped the track at 8:22, just 2 seconds less then the heavy weight camaro.....those are facts not speculation that you girls keep pulling each others hair over.

Interesting stuff...were they actually trying to lap it or just tuning and who was timing the runs? Drivers?

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by eaton53

Tell me about it.

On the vehicles I've had with solid rears you have to watch it when cornering (like on sweeping freeway ramps) because the crappy roads these days have lots of potholes.

Hit one and you can bump steer, which can be interesting if there's a wall or ditch on the outside of the curve. IRS cars don't do that and I'd never buy a sports car without IRS.

When the 05 Mustang came out, Ford marketing made some comment that "a live axle is part of Mustang DNA".

You can dismiss this as BS, but I think the wild feeling on highway ramps and so on is part of the pleasure for a lot of casual drivers in this segment. That is, it's not how good it actually handles, but how "sporty" it feels to the average driver. A little scoot in the rear end is not necessarily a bad thing.