OFFICIAL 2010 CAMARO STATS & SPECS released! 300hp / 422hp!

[chakis24]

Originally Posted by reefblue42

Daayyum, this car rocks. I'm going to wait for the convertible this time around though.

Black or bright red...decisions, decisions...nice job GM.

black all the way.....maybe with silver stripes (ala viper).
this is my next car. i cant wait.

[chakis24]

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

That's what happens when a generation of American males has been emasculated and brought up to believe that shaving your chest hair, shaving your pubes and getting pedicures is socially acceptable. Go find your balls and slap them on! This is a car for men, not boys.

so yeah, that needs to be my new signature. but before i do that, is it alright with you?

[syr74]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

In summary:

GT500 = 3920lbs/500hp

Camaro SS = 3860lbs/422hp

The GT500 has 78 additional HP, but the Camaro is 60lbs lighter, has the newer chassis and more sophisticated independent rear suspension.

Choices are good.

Oh, and by the way - I bet the SS will be $15,000 cheaper.

I would have figured you would have had enough by now....some people are gluttons for punishment.

You did, however, mention a couple of things worth replying to. First, we'll know soon enough what the sticker on the Camaro is going to be, so there really isn't much point in debating that particular issue. That said, msrp for a GT500 starts at 43,975 with ggt and delivery. If the SS comes in at 29k with delivery, which is what a 15k price advantage would indicate, I'll be the most surprised person on this forum. More than that, at that price point I would be pretty convinced GM wont be making much if any money. The cold, hard truth is that Zeta is an expensive platform and GM already had to low ball one cars price tag, the G8 GT, to little effect. Personally, I don't think we will see another American market car on Zeta outside of those wearing Cadillac badges.

Also, a newer platform doesn't mean a better platform. There is no reason to believe the Camaro's basic underpinnings will be superior to that found under the revised 2010/2011 Mustang outside of the IRS. And while I didn't worry about that discrepancy initially, Camaro is coming in heavy enough (and likely expensive enough) to blunt that advantage IMO.

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Eh...no we wont, I don't think we'll hear any of that. Even if Camaro's performance is some how matched by Mustang, Camaro will still out do it in quality, comfort, handling, and style.

Styling is subjective...I don't think the Camaro can hold a candle to the current Mustang in this respect....particularly not the GT500. Quality? I wouldn't be surprised if the Camaro uses better materials on the interior but GM has given us no reason thus far to believe the car will be better built than a Mustang. And you will have to weigh superior interior materials against the Camaro's price premium. Comfort. Maybe. The GTO was better in this respect, but we don't know how well the Camaro stacks up to the old Goat yet and we likewise don't know what improvements await the Mustang in this respect. Handling. Even with the IRS...I doubt it. The Camaro weighs to much.

Originally Posted by BigAlsZ28

I dont want ot hear about mythical Ford engines. All Camaro engine talk in the past was based on REAL existing powertrains such as the LS2, LS3, and other proven powerplants.
Ford on the other hand, has not shown one ounce of proven power plants. 100hp out of .4 liters and 8 extra valves, 2 cam shaft without adding substantial cost to the engine.

Nobody said the 5.0L wont be more expensive to build. But Mustang has been a very profitable car for Ford and they have more than a little room to play with the msrp if they need to. And many of the improvements going into the new 5.0L are likewise known quantities. We already know about the major improvement in power even a small increase in bore provides this engine due largely to superior breathing through improved port velocity, particularly on the low end, and overall volume.

We also know a little about how good the heads are, since the 5.0L engine uses a further refinement of the exceptional heads already employed on the GT and GT500. With just those two improvements it is easy to believe the current 4.6L would moved beyond 350hp by some margin. And the upcoming 5.0L has far more in store than just that.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by Tone

Great point. While an IRS reduces unsprung weight (the moving weight the suspension has to control), the actual IRS unit tends to be a bunch heavier than a simplier SRA.

Which raises an interesting question: while an IRS offers better handling overall compared to a SRA, if the SRA-equipped car is a bunch lighter, could the overall package be a better performer?

For every person, the choice depends on what you want to do with the car.

Tougher for a manufacturer to decide....the solid axle is cheaper, less complex, and lighter BUT the IRS make a car handle so much better, especially over rough surfaces on a corner for example. Lots of drag race guys prefer the solid axle as less parts to flex and mess up alignment (critical once you get into real power, you leave straighter which saves time and drama) plus they are stronger overall along with the weight. I know some of the GTO guys were breaking IRS parts once they started adding power.

Speaking of which, if you don't mind the mild styling, used GTO's are a smokin deal...06 with 400 hp LS2, 6 speed manual,IRS and maybe 25K miles go for low 20's...for the price of a lesser Camaro could add a magnacharger and some mods and be well over 500hp in a nice sleeper package.

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by syr74

I would have figured you would have had enough by now....some people are gluttons for punishment.

After all your huffing and puffing, you sure don't have much to say now. You sure you don't wanna talk about weight anymore?

You did, however, mention a couple of things worth replying to. First, we'll know soon enough what the sticker on the Camaro is going to be, so there really isn't much point in debating that particular issue. That said, msrp for a GT500 starts at 43,975 with ggt and delivery. If the SS comes in at 29k with delivery, which is what a 15k price advantage would indicate, I'll be the most surprised person on this forum. More than that, at that price point I would be pretty convinced GM wont be making much if any money. The cold, hard truth is that Zeta is an expensive platform and GM already had to low ball one cars price tag, the G8 GT, to little effect. Personally, I don't think we will see another American market car on Zeta outside of those wearing Cadillac badges.

So where do you believe GM is going to price the SS? $40k? $45k? $50k+???? What will the Z28 be priced at - $75k? Give me an estimate.

GM hasn't always made the best moves, but they aren't stupid enough to price their entry level V8 pony car 10k+ over the competition (Mustang GT/Challenger R/T). I'd look for a starting price under or very close to $30k - I'll be shocked if that's not where it's at. But heck, lets say they are stupid and price it high at $33k - that's still nearly $10k cheaper than a GT500.

There is no reason to believe the Camaro's basic underpinnings will be superior to that found under the revised 2010/2011 Mustang outside of the IRS.

Well actually there is because when an automaker has a target that's standing still and riding on a platform that is based on a 10 year old platform, it shouldn't be too hard for them to create a better product. I'm sure Holden thrashed on and examined plenty of Mustangs (weren't there pics of the Camaro being tested along side the Mustang?). Now, is the '11 Mustang receiving an all new chassis or just tweaks of the existing one?

[syr74]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

After all your huffing and puffing, you sure don't have much to say now. You sure you don't wanna talk about weight anymore?

ROFLMAO. You've been beaten bloody since this debate began and you are apparently the only one who hasn't figured it out. I've kicked the H*** out of everything you've had to say, you just haven't mustered the sense to bow out when you have a chance. Even your last post regarding the weight added by an IRS system is utter nonsense I was simply giving you a pass because all the fun has been drained out of torching everything you have to say. But since you can't let go I'll oblige.

The Camaro's IRS setup likely adds close to the 150lb you cite when compared to a typical SRA setup, but it isn't because the vehicle employs IRS but rather it's due to the kind of IRS the Camaro uses. Ford's own Control Blade IRS setup, which was originally slated for the 05 Mustang and which will now debut on the GRWD Mustang, is one of the most advanced designs on the market and is a more advanced take on the multi-link setup than is that found under Zeta. And in all of it's inexpensive, stamped steel glory it weighs around 80lbs more than a typical SRA setup. The next version employed under the rear of the GRWD platform, which will underpin the Mustang, is slated to make greater use of lighter materials and will likely pull that number down to......you guessed it.....50lb more than the typical SRA setup.

You were trying to infer that the Mustang would gain a similar amount of weight when IRS is adopted, but that simply isn't true. I'm not giving you or GM any special credit for an IRS design which is heavier than they had to employ...particularly not when better, lighter designs were available to them. Just like I'm not giving them credit for the decision to have the SS 'roll on dubs'

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

So where do you believe GM is going to price the SS? $40k? $45k? $50k+???? What will the Z28 be priced at - $75k? Give me an estimate.

Please, I've already answered this. GM is d**** if they do and d**** if they don't with Zeta and we both know it. They low-balled the price of the G8 GT in an effort to produce better sales, but it didn't work with sales being numbers proving extremely low. Now we see a second year price rise of more than a grand and suddenly GM's under 30k V8 sedan isn't under 30k anymore. Even worse, given all the buzz about how over-budget Zeta came in at I would be willing to be they still aren't making money on the car....a reality which would fit nicely into serious profitability problems GM recently owned up to. (some of us felt said press release fell squarely into captain obvious territory...next they'll tell us trucks aren't selling as well as they used to)

If GM plans to make money on the SS a base V8 model is likely going to be about as much as a G8 GT is. If they price it less than this they are probably going to continue their ridiculous strategy of bolstering their image by producing 'better' cars that don't return a profit. Not the best strategy for a car company nearly out of that particular resource.

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

GM hasn't always made the best moves, but they aren't stupid enough to price their entry level V8 pony car 10k+ over the competition (Mustang GT/Challenger R/T). I'd look for a starting price under or very close to $30k - I'll be shocked if that's not where it's at. But heck, lets say they are stupid and price it high at $33k - that's still nearly $10k cheaper than a GT500.

Seems to me GM priced a very similar car to the new Camaro in about that same range not so long ago. Tell me, how did the GTO work out again.

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

Well actually there is because when an automaker has a target that's standing still and riding on a platform that is based on a 10 year old platform, it shouldn't be too hard for them to create a better product. I'm sure Holden thrashed on and examined plenty of Mustangs (weren't there pics of the Camaro being tested along side the Mustang?). Now, is the '11 Mustang receiving an all new chassis or just tweaks of the existing one?

You can't let go of the DEW98 basis for D2C can you? I'll give you a nice parallel. The current Euro Focus' C1 chassis shares more with the original Focus' C170 platform than D2C does with DEW98. And C170 is an even older platform than DEW98 for that matter. Tell me, how many small cars on the market are better than the C1-based Euro Focus? Oh, I remember......the European Focus is widely considered the best C segment car on the face of the globe, and not by a small margin. You are truly reaching for it.

[FStephenMasek]

Very Nice! I am looking forward to seeing and driving the production cars.

Originally Posted by Tone

Great point. While an IRS reduces unsprung weight (the moving weight the suspension has to control), the actual IRS unit tends to be a bunch heavier than a simplier SRA. Which raises an interesting question: while an IRS offers better handling overall compared to a SRA, if the SRA-equipped car is a bunch lighter, could the overall package be a better performer?

I've owned quite a few cars, and driven a fair number of others. A solid axle is just not as good, and the difference is obvious. The main attribute of a soild axle is that it is less expensive to make. On a perfectly smooth road (like a NASCAR track) the differences are less noticeable than in the real world on real roads.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by FStephenMasek

I've owned quite a few cars, and driven a fair number of others. A solid axle is just not as good, and the difference is obvious. The main attribute of a soild axle is that it is less expensive to make. On a perfectly smooth road (like a NASCAR track) the differences are less noticeable than in the real world on real roads.

Tell me about it.

On the vehicles I've had with solid rears you have to watch it when cornering (like on sweeping freeway ramps) because the crappy roads these days have lots of potholes.

Hit one and you can bump steer, which can be interesting if there's a wall or ditch on the outside of the curve. IRS cars don't do that and I'd never buy a sports car without IRS.

[JBsZ06]

To whom it may concern here.......Never argue with an idiot. They will always bring you to their level and since they live their they surely will win ..(if winning is the right term?)

If you like the camaro (which I do) then great....enjoy the news....if not? state your dislike if you must and move on..

JMO

[E. Haskell]

Originally Posted by syr74

ROFLMAO. You've been beaten bloody since this debate began and you are apparently the only one who hasn't figured it out. I've kicked the H*** out of everything you've had to say, you just haven't mustered the sense to bow out when you have a chance. Even your last post regarding the weight added by an IRS system is utter nonsense I was simply giving you a pass because all the fun has been drained out of torching everything you have to say. But since you can't let go I'll oblige.

Now there is some of the huffing and puffing we've all come to expect. To bad that your dramatic declarations of victory are a sure sign that your're up against the ropes.

The Camaro's IRS setup likely adds close to the 150lb you cite when compared to a typical SRA setup, but it isn't because the vehicle employs IRS but rather it's due to the kind of IRS the Camaro uses. Ford's own Control Blade IRS setup, which was originally slated for the 05 Mustang and which will now debut on the GRWD Mustang, is one of the most advanced designs on the market and is a more advanced take on the multi-link setup than is that found under Zeta. And in all of it's inexpensive, stamped steel glory it weighs around 80lbs more than a typical SRA setup. The next version employed under the rear of the GRWD platform, which will underpin the Mustang, is slated to make greater use of lighter materials and will likely pull that number down to......you guessed it.....50lb more than the typical SRA setup.

Here we are again with these pulled out of the a** estimates. You still haven't answered my question: are you an engineer at Ford? I'm not sure why you keep dodging my questions. You speak with such certainty on things that you've read on the internet, but have no real world experience with. Have you ever weighed this mythical Mustang IRS you speak off? Link? Pics? Anything? Regardless, it's hilarious to watch someone build long and drawn out "arguments" based on estimates and guesswork.

You were trying to infer that the Mustang would gain a similar amount of weight when IRS is adopted, but that simply isn't true.

Similar to what? I estimated 100lbs. But what the hay, lets go with your 50lb estimate (I'm feeling generous)

GT500 = 3970lbs (with IRS via your estimate)
Camaro SS = 3860lbs (with IRS)

Now, using YOUR estimate (post #184) of ~230lbs gained by the GT500's block, supercharger and intercooler, that leaves us with 3970lbs - 230lbs = 3740lbs.

For those watching at home, that's a difference of 3860lbs (Camaro) - 3740lbs (GT500) = 120lbs.

So, by your own estimates, an IRS equipped GT500/400hp GT would be 120lbs lighter than a Camaro SS. BIG FREAKIN' DEAL.

Like I've said, if you're THAT worried about weight, do NOT buy a pony car at all - buy a Miata or Elise.

Bottom line - you are a joke.

Please, I've already answered this. GM is d**** if they do and d**** if they don't with Zeta and we both know it. They low-balled the price of the G8 GT in an effort to produce better sales, but it didn't work with sales being numbers proving extremely low. Now we see a second year price rise of more than a grand and suddenly GM's under 30k V8 sedan isn't under 30k anymore. Even worse, given all the buzz about how over-budget Zeta came in at I would be willing to be they still aren't making money on the car....a reality which would fit nicely into serious profitability problems GM recently owned up to. (some of us felt said press release fell squarely into captain obvious territory...next they'll tell us trucks aren't selling as well as they used to)

If GM plans to make money on the SS a base V8 model is likely going to be about as much as a G8 GT is. If they price it less than this they are probably going to continue their ridiculous strategy of bolstering their image by producing 'better' cars that don't return a profit. Not the best strategy for a car company nearly out of that particular resource.

Stop obfuscating. You've answered nothing except in the sentence in bold. I never asked about GM's business plan or how much money you think they'll make so your armchair analysis is a waste of time. I asked where you think they'll price the Camaro - $30,675 sounds reasonable.

Seems to me GM priced a very similar car to the new Camaro in about that same range not so long ago. Tell me, how did the GTO work out again.

In all my life I've never known the GTO to be a head-to-head competitor of the Mustang. And by the way chief, the GTO didn't sell well even at heavily discounted prices so obviously price wasn't the issue.

You can't let go of the DEW98 basis for D2C can you? I'll give you a nice parallel. The current Euro Focus' C1 chassis shares more with the original Focus' C170 platform than D2C does with DEW98. And C170 is an even older platform than DEW98 for that matter. Tell me, how many small cars on the market are better than the C1-based Euro Focus? Oh, I remember......the European Focus is widely considered the best C segment car on the face of the globe, and not by a small margin. You are truly reaching for it.

Stop obfuscating.

[E. Haskell]

In summary:

GT500 = 3920lbs/500hp

Camaro SS = 3860lbs/422hp

The GT500 has 78 additional HP, but the Camaro is 60lbs lighter, has the newer chassis, better weight balance and more sophisticated independent rear suspension.

Give me an SS and make it red.

[blkwrxsti]

Originally Posted by wescoent

AWD is not in the cards... for the moment.

CTS is going to Zeta, and it NEEDS AWD, so I guess when that hits, the Camaro could theoretically go AWD.

But why...

Because sometimes it snows here. I'd probably get a CTS before a Camaro anyway though, so point well made...

Do you KNOW that the Zeta II did not lose the flexibility for AWD in order to cut costs?

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by blkwrxsti

Because sometimes it snows here. I'd probably get a CTS before a Camaro anyway though, so point well made...

Do you KNOW that the Zeta II did not lose the flexibility for AWD in order to cut costs?

I have not seen the blueprints, no.

However, if GM cut out AWD capability for Zeta II, the next CTS is DOA. In luxury, it's AWD, or don't even bother.

[charts.1]

Originally Posted by E. Haskell

I still don't understand the continuing fascination with comparing the curb weight of new GM vehicles to vehicles that are 4 years old and based on platforms that date back to '00.

Well then, stop trying to say the Camaro is heavy. Wait until Ford releases the specs for the 2010MY car and then we'll talk about weight.


Don't give me any of this guesstimate sh**. It's pointless.

Are you buying a 2010 Camaro SS?

[Tone]

Originally Posted by eaton53

Tell me about it.

On the vehicles I've had with solid rears you have to watch it when cornering (like on sweeping freeway ramps) because the crappy roads these days have lots of potholes.

Hit one and you can bump steer, which can be interesting if there's a wall or ditch on the outside of the curve. IRS cars don't do that and I'd never buy a sports car without IRS.

I've driven both; specifically a first generation RX-7 with a well located (Watts Linkage) SRA and a second generation RX-7 with an IRS.

The first gen was lighter and more "chuckable". It would slightly oversteer at the limit, making it feel very lively and light on its feet.

The second gen car, on the other hand, just stuck. I'm sure it was faster and it was very, very stable. But, I found it a bit less engaging to drive. And, it was several hundred pounds heavier than the first gen car.

In my experience, lighter cars are better all around performers -- they turn in better, they are more "positionable" within in the corner, they brake better and are generally more fun to drive.

The Camaro will undoubtedly be a very fast, very stable car. But, I wonder it a lighter Mustang with the SRA (which by all reports is a pretty well designed system -- it's worlds better than the "one link missing" Fox-bodied rear suspensions) might be a more enjoyable car to chuck around on a back road.

I'm looking forward to the first comparisons to find out ... but I think the world is a bit of a richer place for having so many fun, interesting cars on the market! And, I wish I was in the position to be truly considering purchasing a Mustang or Camaro!!

And, regarding bump steer: there was a time not too long ago when the advantage of a SRA over an IRS was its stability. Not to mid-corner bumps so much as to lift throttle behaviour. That's back when most IRSes used a less complex (and cheaper) trailing arm design that had some geometry issues as weight transfered forward under cornering. The more complex (and heavier) multi-link designs that almost all of today's cars use offsets this by adding additional links to better control suspension movement.