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Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Version

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#1 ·
Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Version

Road & Track

February 2015

Article Quotes - Summation

I first saw rough plans for a mid-engine Corvette around 2003.

That's when we were starting to think seriously about a replacement for the C6. GM's head of engineering, Jim Queen, came to see me and said, "The next one's got to be mid-engine".

Tadge Juechter had a PowerPoint presentation demonstrating, very credibly, that the C6 ZR1 was at the limit of usable rear-wheel-drive performance. The problem was really the front-mid-engine layout. We couldn't get the engine low enough and far back enough for proper weight transfer to the rear wheels under acceleration.

I didn't want to move out of our price class, but Tadge explained that while the transmission would cost more, the list price would increase by no more than $5000. Imagine an American-built car with the proportions of a Lamborghini at that price point...that's pretty appealing.

Rick wagoner's reaction was the same as mine: "Oh, no, no. We're not going mid-engine". He thought a little more power next time would fill the bill. Problem is, lap times would be no better using the same architecture, even with, say, 750 hp.

We did two full-size mid engine clay models around 2004 - a Corvette and a Cadillac XLR replacement, each with entirely different bodies. They were both gorgeous. We started working on it.

Around 2005, GM started having budget problems, so the mid-engine project got deferred. By 2007 it was obvious that we were not going to have the money. A whole bunch of stuff got canceled. Impala was delayed. XLR was cancelled. Camaro convertible was delayed. The CTS was delayed.

For the C7, the Corvette team didn't get the $900 million. Instead, it got the nominal sum of $250 million and "do the best you can". There's no way we were going to get a production volume mid-engine car for $250 million.

They wound up doing what Tadge said was absolutely necessary, moving the engine back another two, two and a half inches - which wasn't possible with the C6 - and that's why the C7 has an inch more wheelbase.

We also looked (at the time) at a smaller, more youth-oriented Corvette for a lower price point. We actually had Chevrolet versions of the Solstice modeled, and a lot of us were enthusiastic about a European styled car. But, keeping the pickups and sport-utilities modern, to generate cash, is frankly more important than introducing something that enthusiasts will love.

(Regarding a mid-engine C8): I hope GM does it, and I hope they use the name Zora. The name sounds great and would pay homage to one of the most brilliant engineers GM ever had, the father of the Corvette. All things considered, I'd put the chances of a mid-engined Corvette at better than 50%. With Mary (Barra) in charge and Mark Reuss at product development, my guess is that, if work has indeed started on the Zora, it started six months ago.

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01/07/2015: GM Press Release

BOWLING GREEN, Ky. – Chevrolet announced today it is resuming the exclusive Engine Build Experience for Corvette Z06 customers – the only program of its kind for supercar customers.

Starting in March 2015, Corvette Z06 customers will be able to assemble the 650-hp supercharged LT4 engine for their cars at the new Performance Build Center inside the Bowling Green Assembly Plant.

“Chevrolet recognizes the passion customers have for Corvette and the Engine Build Experience offers them a truly unique opportunity for hands-on involvement in the creation of the heart of their new car,” said Harlan Charles, Corvette product manager. “It’s a chance to bond with their new car.”

The Engine Build Experience is selected with order code PBC and is offered on all Z06 trim levels. The $5,000 package includes a full day with a Performance Build Center engine assembly technician who instructs and oversees the build, a personalized engine plaque identifying the owner/builder and the date of the engine build, and professional photography of the experience.

After the order is submitted, personnel from the National Corvette Museum will handle concierge services for the customer, following up on the scheduled build date and handling logistics on the day of the build. The customer is responsible for travel costs to Bowling Green and lodging.

Upon completion, the engine moves to the vehicle assembly area of the plant, where it will be installed with the scheduled assembly of the customer’s Z06.

“It’s important for customers to understand their engine won’t be installed the day after they built it,” said Charles. “It will flow into the scheduling process for vehicle assembly, which depends on a number of logistical variables.”

Customers can catch their Corvette being assembled through a special tour organized by the National Corvette Museum. They can also opt for Museum Delivery (order code R8C), which personalizes the buying experience with delivery at the National Corvette Museum, located across the road from the Bowling Green Assembly Plant.

The assembly line tour and Museum Delivery are available for Corvette Stingray and Z06 customers.
 
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#3 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

to me, the front engine design it currently has is an awesome car. the layout has helped keep the price down so that many can have a dream car they can reach. the over 100,000 starting price for the viper is part of the reason the viper sales are going no where. having a corvette around $60k helps keep the model alive. if the corvette went mid engine and price rose, sales would drop and focus on it would drop

but since the camaro is now back. it would make sense to have the camaro as the front engine, rear drive performance machine. and differentiate the corvette by being mid engined.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

to me, the front engine design it currently has is an awesome car. the layout has helped keep the price down so that many can have a dream car they can reach. the over 100,000 starting price for the viper is part of the reason the viper sales are going no where. having a corvette around $60k helps keep the model alive. if the corvette went mid engine and price rose, sales would drop and focus on it would drop

but since the camaro is now back. it would make sense to have the camaro as the front engine, rear drive performance machine. and differentiate the corvette by being mid engined.
The article indicates "no more than $5k increase".

With a 3% loan over 6 years your looking at a $911 payment going up to $987 or a $76 increase. I don't see that dropping sales by much if any.
 
#25 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I'd kill to see the Mid-engine XLR model.
With AWD, it would literally be my dream car. I'm imagining a Cadillac R8 or i8.

Blah blah blah... this would move the Corvette "out of its price class by $5,000."
Do those idiotic penny pinchers realize that you could add $6-10,000 across the board on today's Corvette and sell the equivalent amount of cars???
They left a LOT of money on the table.
You misread. It was a "we could do it for only this much more", rather than "we would have to do it for this much more".

It wasn't a "me-oh-my, it'll be too expensive!"

A McLaren lover may cross-shop a Corvette; however, the price point for the Corvette would mean it would be too attainable. There's a loss of uniqueness.
Ding. If I were shopping Lambos, that'd be my #1 issue with a mid-engine Corvette. Too attainable, too common.

A Stingray should be priced at $60,000, with convertible at $65,000.
A Z06 should be priced in the $85,000 range, with convertible at $90,000.
A ZR1 could price at $120,000, with convertible at $125,000.

Corvette would easily command those prices.

I mean, a McLaren 650S starts at $280,000!!!
Have a mid-engine Corvette ZR1 start at $150,000! WHO CARES!!! It's audience would be the exotic car drivers, and for $150,000, it's a STEAL!!
Agreed.

I've said before, my lineup would be a FR Stingray with a Z06 high-performance Corvette above it (with convertibles, same prices), a four seater Corvette ($85k) with a stretched wheelbase (FF) with a convertible variant, a ZXX track Corvette ($100k), and a mid-engined Zora at $150k.

Share the Zora platform with a Cadillac or two.

One like the R8, going from $100k-$200k, and one that would reverse the Earth's rotation at full throttle. Price the latter at whatever you must to break even or better on the car. It should be a la carte, build-to-order only. Restrict production like the Veyron. The R8 competitor should offer a bespoke experience as an option (for which you would pay dearly).
 
#6 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

As much as I think the idea of a mid-engined sports coupe from a GM division makes sense, I really don't think it should be a "Corvette." That name, and that car, is entrenched in history as a front engine rear drive vehicle and that radical of a departure wouldn't be a Corvette in my mind any longer.

Call it Zora, but not Corvette. Maybe that spells the end of the 'vette, but at least it would go out on a high note.
 
#12 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

We also looked (at the time) at a smaller, more youth-oriented Corvette for a lower price point. We actually had Chevrolet versions of the Solstice modeled, and a lot of us were enthusiastic about a European styled car.
IMO - The 1992 Stingray III would have been a perfect fit for the Kappa platform as an entry level Corvette.
 
#14 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I think it is funny that they always say that, that the front mid ship layout in the Corvette has gone as far as it can go.. then they go further with it. There are only currently 3 mid engine performance cars that can run on a track with the new C7 Z06 with Z07 package. It is the Porsche 918, Mclaren P1, and Ferrari La Ferrari.... those cars are million dollar cars with around 900BHP. I say they have done an amazing job with the current platform and they will continue to push things.
 
#28 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I'm in the front-mid engine RWD pack primarily because I hate the FWD proportions of the other Supercars.
Despite the fact that they're proportioned like mid-engined cars?




I feel as those the rear mid engine would be most appropriate as a Cadillac and/or a supplement to the front mid engine Corvette but not as a replacement for it.
I would hope that would be the case.

1) It would keep purists happy.
2) It would elevate and expand the Corvette brand.
3) It would serve to provide volume for and enhance the viability of a co-platformed Cadillac.
 
#22 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

We also looked (at the time) at a smaller, more youth-oriented Corvette for a lower price point. We actually had Chevrolet versions of the Solstice modeled, and a lot of us were enthusiastic about a European styled car. But, keeping the pickups and sport-utilities modern, to generate cash, is frankly more important than introducing something that enthusiasts will love.
Probably lead to articles and rumors like this one.

http://www.motortrend.com/future/concept_cars/112_0602_chevrolet_kappa_sting_ray/
 
#23 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

(For the record, I'm not a Vette owner, merely a fanboy. Take all this with the proper amount of salt)

That's one of my obstacles to the mid/rear Corvette: the proportions. Every other mid/rear sports car has a low–slung, FWD, Dustbuster look. While I realize that it's good for handling & drag, it's crap for styling (IMO) and livability; I'm remembering a Top Gear UK segment where they had mid–engined supercars and spent forever blocking traffic trying to get out of a parking garage. Corvette, to stay Corvette, needs to be something you can run down to the store and pick up groceries in. It's got to be something you can live with, while still being able to set a blistering lap time. Can they do it with the mid/rear architecture? That's the $64,000 question, isn't it? Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't...
 
#24 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

(For the record, I'm not a Vette owner, merely a fanboy. Take all this with the proper amount of salt)

That's one of my obstacles to the mid/rear Corvette: the proportions. Every other mid/rear sports car has a low–slung, FWD, Dustbuster look. While I realize that it's good for handling & drag, it's crap for styling (IMO) and livability; I'm remembering a Top Gear UK segment where they had mid–engined supercars and spent forever blocking traffic trying to get out of a parking garage. Corvette, to stay Corvette, needs to be something you can run down to the store and pick up groceries in. It's got to be something you can live with, while still being able to set a blistering lap time. Can they do it with the mid/rear architecture? That's the $64,000 question, isn't it? Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't...
While cargo room would be compromised, you can do a perfectly livable mid-engine car. The original NSX was one good example. I owned a '94 NSX for a couple of years, and the driving position, outward visibility, and feeling like you could place the car absolutely precisely was not nearly matched by any Corvette I've ever driven or owned. And as far as practicality, I had my longest road trip ever in that car from NJ to CO. I have not driven the C7, but without the "sitting on the head of an arrow" feeling you got in the NSX, I doubt it compares in that regard much better than the older vettes. IMO, there should be a mid-engined Corvette.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I feel as tho the rear mid engine would be most appropriate as a Cadillac and/or a supplement to the front mid engine Corvette but not as a replacement for it.
 
#29 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I feel as those the rear mid engine would be most appropriate as a Cadillac and/or a supplement to the front mid engine Corvette but not as a replacement for it.
I absolutely agree.

I'd like to see a mid-engine Cadillac super car priced around the $150k-$175k mark. Something similar to the Cien, only without the "Lambo doors". The Corvette should remain what it is and always has been.
 
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#27 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

The Vette program finally needs to grow a bit. With the level of performance of the C7 stingray not progressing as much it should be priced lower than currently priced. Then offer higher power outputs from there. A mid engine Vette should live along side a front engine version and help with development cost for a Caddy version. Giving Vette a Panarama fighter could work as well. With a Caddy version being more luxurious.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I think it is time for people to relax and let the engineers with spectacular degrees in physics make the choices about where Corvette should go. If they say they are tapped out then I believe them. It makes their job harder to squeeze more from less when if given the artistic engineering capabilities and budget they request could result in a paradigm shift in the automotive landscape. You do not need 1 million dollars to have the best performance machine on the road. Hell it would put boutique car manufacturers on notice and force them downmarket spurring development in new tech for all new cars leading to a Renaissance that is sorely needed. Instead of progress being held to just enough it would be create a market of how much is too much. So I say do it and do it so well that it will have changed the market and spurred a new generation of performance.
 
#32 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

The thing is though, Chevrolet has to be careful to keep a RWD corvette in addition to a higher performance Model, low volume model components of which can be shared by Cadillac, like say a carbon fibre tub, but given what the Z06 can do today, I doubt there would be any benefit really of going Mid Engined.
 
#37 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I hope they don't change the Corvette in such a radical manner. People want a Corvette because it is the car they dreamed of in their youth. If they change it, I think it will lose a lot of its appeal. BMW tried to replace the boxer twin with an inline water cooled motorcycle and they had to bring the boxer back. Harley tried to go the water cooled route with the V-Rod and it was a sales failure. They have both been forced to make changes to their engines but the base design and look is still the very similar.
 
#41 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I've been saying for years that I would like to see Corvette be a sub brand of Chevy (Like Geo was) and have select dealers only able to sell them. Dealers that would be willing to have there Corvette area separate from the rest of the dealers lot. and have three models, a entry level, a middle level (current Vette) and a super exotic mid engine car in the Ferrari price range. I like the idea of using the Solstice for the entry level or you could use the Camaro as a starting point. But I don't think these should be for sale at every Chevy dealer just the ones equipped to handle the cars
 
#43 · (Edited)
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

GM has been talking about a mid-engined Corvette for decades. Maybe this time they'll pull the trigger? Could be, they seem more serious this time. I'm not really sure how I feel about that. I mean if the whole purpose of going mid-engine is to get OVER 750 horsepower to ground, well......maybe the whole idea of a Corvette as we've always known it is over. Sort of reeks of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Anyone here ever drive a car with over 750 horsepower? Anyone here feel that they need a car with over 750 horsepower? Personally, I have no desire to own one. We have gotten way past the point of diminishing returns as far as power to the ground goes. I could probably come up with a top ten list of Corvette pet peeves, lack of horsepower isn't one of them. And if Corvette goes mid engine....what then?..will we need Camaro to go for $75,000 in order to fill the gap? Oh, wait.

Now, a $125,000 -$150,000 mid engined Cadillac sports car would be interesting. Not yet though, Cadillac doesn't really have it's house sufficiently in order for that, plus the GM Corvette mafia would resist it. Tread carefully here Chevrolet, consider carefully, before you throw away an icon.
 
#50 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

GM has been talking about a mid-engined Corvette for decades. Maybe this time they'll pull the trigger? Could be, they seem more serious this time. I'm not really sure how I feel about that. I mean if the whole purpose of going mid-engine is to get OVER 750 horsepower to ground, well......maybe the whole idea of a Corvette as we've always known it is over. Sort of reeks of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Anyone here ever drive a car with over 750 horsepower? Anyone here feel that they need a car with over 750 horsepower? Personally, I have no desire to own one. We have gotten way past the point of diminishing returns as far as power to the ground goes. I could probably come up with a top ten list of Corvette pet peeves, lack of horsepower isn't one of them. And if Corvette goes mid engine....what then?..will we need Camaro to go for $75,000 in order to fill the gap? Oh, wait.

Now, a $125,000 -$150,000 mid engined Cadillac sports car would be interesting. Not yet though, Cadillac doesn't really have it's house sufficiently in order for that, plus the GM Corvette mafia would resist it. Tread carefully here Chevrolet, consider carefully, before you throw away an icon.
4 years.

By then, Cadillac should have a second go at ATS, a couple of crossovers, a new Escalade (right?), an refreshed CT6, possibly a CT8, a new CTS, a sub ATS, probably a big coupe, and a modular engine family with probably close to 225k sales/yr in North America and close to half a million global.

That's a house in order. Cadillac needs to plan ahead, given product cycles. As bleak at things might look... they aren't. Now would be the time to start working on one fairly earnestly.

I note that there are basically three 'everyday supercars': the Porsche 911, the Nissan GTR and the Corvette. None are rear-mid engined and two of them use AWD to deal with getting huge power to the ground. All are cars you could daily drive if you wanted yet can hang with supercars costing far more.

Perhaps rather than worrying about how to get more than 700 hp to the ground, GM should use the Corvette as a technology lab for advanced, lightweight materials -- as it already has been doing -- perhaps accelerating the process. A 3000 lb Corvette with about 550 hp has roughly the same power to weight ratio as today's Z06, would be even better in the transitions and under braking and would have an easier time hitting fuel economy and emissions targets. Plus, materials and manufacturing tech proved through the Corvette could trickle up to more mainstream cars. That far more relevant than another zillion hp mid-engined exotic.
A Porsche is rear-engined. As far as packaging for cargo room goes, it might as well be mid-engined.

Keeping the engine in the back puts more weight on the rear wheels to encourage better RWD traction... which is basically the same reason GM is looking to do a mid-engined Corvette.

And Corvette isn't the tip of the spear for GM, that would be Cadillac. Should be, with Corvette and especially so if they share a platform.
 
#45 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I note that there are basically three 'everyday supercars': the Porsche 911, the Nissan GTR and the Corvette. None are rear-mid engined and two of them use AWD to deal with getting huge power to the ground. All are cars you could daily drive if you wanted yet can hang with supercars costing far more.

Perhaps rather than worrying about how to get more than 700 hp to the ground, GM should use the Corvette as a technology lab for advanced, lightweight materials -- as it already has been doing -- perhaps accelerating the process. A 3000 lb Corvette with about 550 hp has roughly the same power to weight ratio as today's Z06, would be even better in the transitions and under braking and would have an easier time hitting fuel economy and emissions targets. Plus, materials and manufacturing tech proved through the Corvette could trickle up to more mainstream cars. That far more relevant than another zillion hp mid-engined exotic.
 
#47 ·
Re: Lutz Speaks On Why Next Vette Should Be Mid-Engine, NG XLR & Chevy "Solstice" Ver

I note that there are basically three 'everyday supercars': the Porsche 911, the Nissan GTR and the Corvette. None are rear-mid engined and two of them use AWD to deal with getting huge power to the ground. All are cars you could daily drive if you wanted yet can hang with supercars costing far more.

Perhaps rather than worrying about how to get more than 700 hp to the ground, GM should use the Corvette as a technology lab for advanced, lightweight materials -- as it already has been doing -- perhaps accelerating the process. A 3000 lb Corvette with about 550 hp has roughly the same power to weight ratio as today's Z06, would be even better in the transitions and under braking and would have an easier time hitting fuel economy and emissions targets. Plus, materials and manufacturing tech proved through the Corvette could trickle up to more mainstream cars. That far more relevant than another zillion hp mid-engined exotic.

I would argue the R8 in place of the Corvette, personally. And it IS mid-engined. Also, the 911 is grounded in RWD models, and that's also where the best models lie- GT3, GT2, etc.

I like the second part of your statement, though.
 
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