Lutz Chimes in on the Chevy Beat: 4 Years?

[stormwatcher]

It is really that important to have the Beat in North America? A better engine in the Aveo would make more sense (and sales ).

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by stormwatcher

It is really that important to have the Beat in North America? A better engine in the Aveo would make more sense (and sales ).

Yes. Yes it is. The youth market isn't interested in the Aveo, perhaps a small, sprightly, efficient 3 door might be interesting.

[GMINmoderator]

GM has got to figure out how to get cars to market faster, respond to the market faster, and make money on those cars or it can kiss its butt good bye. 2012 is unacceptable.

If we went to the moon in less than a decade why does GM need 4 years to do a small car?
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Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy.
-- Frank Sinatra

[tigger#76]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

...Its definitely not unusual for the GM car world. Ya, look at the Camaro... It has taken GM over 4 years and the car still isn't in the show rooms... How long did it take Chrysler to bring us the new Challenger? Less then 3 years. They started After GM committed to the Camaro and their car is on the streets...

Is this that "new math" they teach in school now?

The prototype Camaro was shown in Detroit for the first time in 2006. It's now half way through 2008. That's 2.5 years.

The official release stating that the Camaro was a go for production came out on the 10th of August of 2006. That's just under 2 years.

So where did this over 4 years thing come from?

The official release stating the Challenger was a go for production came out on July 1 2006, that's before the Camaro official announcement. Plus the Challenger required less engineering and already had a factory ready to produce compared to the Camaro.

If you're going to bash GM, at least use real numbers and get your facts straight.

Beyond that, plenty of others have already pointed out the only other thing I'd have to add to the discussion but that hasn't made the slightest dent in any of the sky is falling posts so far, so I'm certain me saying it again won't help.

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[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by tigger#76

Plus the Challenger required less engineering and already had a factory ready to produce compared to the Camaro.

Thanks for making my point... GM needs to be nimble... Dodge saw the market that the new Mustang was scooping.... and knew they needed a car NOW

THEIR car is in DEALERSHIPS today... In spite of the fact that I got my dates backwards by 41 days...
THEY WON... WE LOST...



We desperately need to see pictures like this... with a row of Camaro's

OK you got me the "official announcements" were the other way, the was Challenger first by 41 days...
We'll all just ignore all of the "Lutz teases" and "Lutz leaks" that occurred in 2004 and 2005
The Dodge dealership across the street from my Chev/Caddy dealer has had a new Challenger in the show room for about a week now... So I'll just head down to my Chevy dealer and pickup my Camaro in 41 days.

[tigger#76]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Thanks for making my point... GM needs to be nimble... Dodge saw the market that the new Mustang was scooping.... and knew they needed a car NOW... <snip>

So you'd rather the new Camaro be out now, despite the fact that it would have had to be built on a very old platform, or be front wheel drive, or be based on a truck chassis? (just kidding by the way, I know that's not what you're saying).

I don't disagree that GM needs to be nimble. Especially since current politics and social issues have nearly totally scrapped their product plans for the next few years. That being said, I'm not convinced that they aren't scrambling to get things going ASAP. They have lost a ton of market share due to poor quality, so they have to make certain they put out quality products, which takes longer than slapping something together.

Should they have seen these changing times coming? Probably.
Did they? Obviously not.
Now that they have a sense of where things are going will they take action to adjust their plans? I think so, but my guess is no better than anyone else's guess at this time.
Does the Wall Street Journal have a clue about GM's time line for bringing certain products state side? If they're thinking 2012 for the Beat, I highly doubt it.


As far as the Camaro as an example goes, GM is taking the extra time to make it a market defining car and I'm one of many who is willing to wait for it. I expect it to make the Mustang and the Challenger seem second rate by comparison. If it doesn't, then yes, they should have just gotten it out the door ASAP. If it does, then it's worth the wait. Especially if the thing ends up in base trim having a lot of performance and getting fuel economy that rivals the family sedans out there in V6 trim. Even more so if the thing doesn't have the old notorious cowl shake, drooping doors, various clunks and rattles that the Camaro has had for years.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Thanks for making my point... GM needs to be nimble... Dodge saw the market that the new Mustang was scooping.... and knew they needed a car NOW

THEIR car is in DEALERSHIPS today... In spite of the fact that I got my dates backwards by 41 days...
THEY WON... WE LOST...



We desperately need to see pictures like this... with a row of Camaro's

OK you got me the "official announcements" were the other way, the was Challenger first by 41 days...
We'll all just ignore all of the "Lutz teases" and "Lutz leaks" that occurred in 2004 and 2005
The Dodge dealership across the street from my Chev/Caddy dealer has had a new Challenger in the show room for about a week now... So I'll just head down to my Chevy dealer and pickup my Camaro in 41 days.

Well, when you consider the fact that Chrysler shortened an existing platform, slapped a 30+ year old body design on it, threw some full-size truck bits in the interior and said "Voila! It's a Challenger!", sure they got done faster - they had way less to do. Now, GM is designing an entirely new platform for the Camaro, not just what amounts to a Dodge Magnum/Chrysler 300C body kit. You think we could cut them some slack? Oh no, not GM. Besides, Dodge may have the Challenger, but it's ugly compared to the Camaro.

[Sal Collaziano]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

slapped a 30+ year old body design on it

Really.. What a stupid idea..

</sarcasm>

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by tigger#76

So you'd rather the new Camaro be out now, despite the fact that it would have had to be built on a very old platform, or be front wheel drive, or be based on a truck chassis? (just kidding by the way, I know that's not what you're saying).

I don't disagree that GM needs to be nimble. Especially since current politics and social issues have nearly totally scrapped their product plans for the next few years. That being said, I'm not convinced that they aren't scrambling to get things going ASAP. They have lost a ton of market share due to poor quality, so they have to make certain they put out quality products, which takes longer than slapping something together.

Should they have seen these changing times coming? Probably.
Did they? Obviously not.
Now that they have a sense of where things are going will they take action to adjust their plans? I think so, but my guess is no better than anyone else's guess at this time.
Does the Wall Street Journal have a clue about GM's time line for bringing certain products state side? If they're thinking 2012 for the Beat, I highly doubt it.


As far as the Camaro as an example goes, GM is taking the extra time to make it a market defining car and I'm one of many who is willing to wait for it. I expect it to make the Mustang and the Challenger seem second rate by comparison. If it doesn't, then yes, they should have just gotten it out the door ASAP. If it does, then it's worth the wait. Especially if the thing ends up in base trim having a lot of performance and getting fuel economy that rivals the family sedans out there in V6 trim. Even more so if the thing doesn't have the old notorious cowl shake, drooping doors, various clunks and rattles that the Camaro has had for years.

I hope you are right... everything I'm reading about the new Camaro is that it is going to weight close to 4000 pounds... A 4000 pound pony car doesn't make sense to me. My Caddy weighs 4000 pounds... I hope this is a typo.

I think they should have gone the mustang/challanger route and slapped a drop dead georgous body on a shorteded GTO platform. That would have been excellent justification to fix and improve two cars for the price of one...

Ya lots of us will wait for the Camaro... In this day and age, being first to market is NEVER a bad thing. Time is one thing that GM does not have a lot of right now. And every mustang or challenger sold is one new camaro that will never get bought.

[tigger#76]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

I hope you are right... everything I'm reading about the new Camaro is that it is going to weight close to 4000 pounds... A 4000 pound pony car doesn't make sense to me. My Caddy weighs 4000 pounds... I hope this is a typo.

I think they should have gone the mustang/challanger route and slapped a drop dead georgous body on a shorteded GTO platform. That would have been excellent justification to fix and improve two cars for the price of one...

Ya lots of us will wait for the Camaro... In this day and age, being first to market is NEVER a bad thing. Time is one thing that GM does not have a lot of right now. And every mustang or challenger sold is one new camaro that will never get bought.

Weight on the Camaro is definitely a concern, but at least it weigh as much as the Challenger. According to the info I've read, the Camaro should be somewhere between the Challenger and the Mustang (likely closer to the Challenger) but under 4000 lbs (I'd guess somewhere in the mid 3800 range).

The issues with using the GTO platform are that it was already dead (Holden already had the new Zeta in the pipe), and there was no place in North America equiped to build the old GTO chassis (or the new Zeta for that matter).

Beyond that, I fear we're taking this thread too far off topic and that isn't what I intended.

With leftlane claiming the Volt might be out a year early, and reports that there might be an E-Flex vehicle with a half size battery that gets a shorter range but is cheaper, I'm hoping the GM is able to pull off a bit of a coup d'etat. That doesn't get the Beat here any sooner, but if they can get a reasonably priced high mileage vehicle out in the next year and a half then the Beat becomes a secondary issue. I'm still skeptical of the 2012 timeline mentioned by the WSJ, but I have no credible info to confirm or contradict that time frame.

Add an updated drivetrain and some up scale interior options to the Aveo and the Beat could be put off even longer. No matter what any company comes out with, it still has to fend for itself on the streets with all of the SUVs that are still out there. That's the only reason my smallest car is an old Cavalier. I had something smaller back in the late '90s but felt so close to death so many times on the highway that I dumped it as soon as I could.