IL Corrects Volt Story: Batteries Will NOT Charge When Driving; GM Website Differs

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Btw, concerning the USA and Australia ....... how would you compare and contrast the implied intellectual capabilities of the 'lead' lemming off the cliff - and one following ?

Australian Government has effectively NO foreign debt and only issues Gov Bonds to satisfy a market requirement for a standardised base for interest rate spreads. Did the US 'lead' Australia into no debt?

Australian Government has a $20 Billion dollar annual surplus, which it does on a regular basis. Given the US has 15x our population that's equivalent to a US annual budget surplus of $300 Billion. Did the US 'lead' Australia to have a surplus every year?

Australian Government has $60 - $70 Billion in our national sovereign wealth fund called 'The Future Fund' (equivalent to the US having a national savings fund of $1 Trillion). Again?

Australia has virtually free Healthcare, very cheap Higher Education, and a wide array of social services, all well funded. Not 'lead' there by the US I don’t think.

We have a booming economy where interest rates are in a historically healthy normal range of 5%-8% (lots of foreigners invest here in bonds as they can't get such returns elsewhere) and this gives our Federal Reserve Bank plenty of room to lower rates if we get into economic difficulty by contagion from a bad US economy. We obviously didn't take the super low interest rate cheap money 'lead' of the US, which helped cause your problems.

I'm sorry but I just don't see how the intellectuals that run Australia are 'following' the US. And we are certainly NOT following the US's 'lead' off the cliff, but we will stand on the edge and wave goodbye to you as you go....

You know, when I was a kid we used to get a lot of US TV shows that made America look so much different than today. Family shows like My Three Sons where the dad was an aeronautical engineer, played by Fred MacMurray. Or Family Affair starring Brian Keith who was an engineer who built things like bridges. Or The Brady Bunch where the dad was an architect. And like Disney's weekly TV show where every second or third week they had documentaries for kids (instead of gratuitous cartoons or dramas) on things like nuclear power, or submarines and space programs.

It was US shows like that and others that made me want to be a scientist or engineer and fell in love with science. And they made America appear to be a place where things got made and built and did in fact 'lead' the world, but in good things.

Is it true that now US University courses in science and engineering are filled, not with American students, but foreigners who now are no longer staying in the US but going back home in droves after graduation to their booming Asian economies?

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

This makes more inexplicable ..... I think ? - the continuing miscalculations.....

Where is your brake regen energy - recharge amount ???

Lots of it - even in the USA highway number.

Because firstly regenerative braking gets well under 50% efficiency and plays less of a role than people imagine in a vehicle of this weight compared with heavy vehicles like SUV's. And GM are not clear about on what cycle the Volt goes 40 miles, only that it will at least go 40 miles, implying that in normal use one would expect it to go further.

If that is true, which I believe it is, then that 8kWh of energy is spread over even more miles in normal driving, which would mean a normal car would have to get even better gas mileage. So while the unknown regen component may alter the net energy equivalent one way, the unknown overrun of 40 miles would alter it the other way, and as they cannot be specified but would likely be a wash, I left them out.

The simple fact is that GM fans here are cheering for the Volt to succeed, so am I. But unlike some of you cheer squad I am trying to be realistic about the Volt's expectations. It is not going to outperform the Prius in its on road performance but I believe it will be a better product. It will have lower levels of performance than many Americans expect, and I don't believe in raising expectations which could genuinely harm Volt sales and GM's future.

Just as high expectations for a movie before release can ruin it if it falls short of those expectations, it is best if Volt's performance expectations are closest to or even under what it can deliver. Then you avoid disappointment and buyers remorse. Because if you get a few thousand Volt buyers rush and buy the Volt sight unseen just to be first and then bitch to their friends that they thought it was going to have the get up and go of a Tesla, that would be very bad in the market place.

So go ahead, damage the Volt's marketability with your overly patriotic fervour and sell it up for a fall; as the best thing since sliced bread.

Me, I'm a realist who hopes to be pleasantly surprised. You people may be optimists, but you risk disappointment.....

[fan]

Originally Posted by zete

There's been a correction to the correction. Not sure if it's been posted elsewhere, but the generator does charge the battery, but it's not its primary role.

As the Volt Turns.

According to Lauckner, the battery will receive power from the gas engine when load conditions are light (as in, not under acceleration). When the battery comes back up to a certain level of charge (that figure is still the subject of development at GM), the gas engine can cycle off and the Volt can run for an unspecified period on the stored battery power.

Thus, if through conservative driving one stores up enough juice, it'd be electric only again. Nifty.

GM's VP for Global Program Management, who says that the 1.4-liter gasoline engine does in fact send whatever surplus power it makes to the lithium-ion battery

Well that means that when the ICE is running, the generator send power directly to the emotors and sends the surplus to the battery.

When pushing the car to its limits it may be a choice between fuel economy or battery lifespan. : revving the engine when power is needed and the battery is not fully recharged or assisting the engine running at optimum rpm with power from the recharging battery.
It could be tricky. So, if the target lifetime for the battery is 10 yrs, the setup may be programmed to run first (2) years to asure maximum fuel eficiency. If meanwhile, the battery would degrade too much ( more extreme driving habits), the software could chose to rev up the engine more often when power is needed to spare battery's life (to get to 10 yrs) but at expense of a decrease in mileage. But this latest choice would be actually legitimate and in driver's best interest. He would get pissed off if it's battery would die in 5 yrs even if he didn't care to plug-it in more often.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by big swede

I guess this is what happens when someone takes the internet WAY too seriously. Holy smokes it is now being tied into the downslide of America. Give me a break. No society values jocks over nerds, it's just that jocks are much more visible.

Jocks are more visible because they are more popular and they epitomise partying, getting the girl and having a good time. Just like America has been in one long financial party. While the nerd is seen as staying home nights studying. You ask any kid in America, even if you throw in a Bill gates comparison, they will say they would prefer to be the jock. In Asia ask any kid and you will absolutely not get that answer. They want to be engineers and build things. That right there is where two different societies value jocks and nerds very differently.

Originally Posted by big swede

And don't get your panties in a bunch about your IQ. Anyone that hoists their IQ out there like you do probably isn't quite as smart as they think they are. Truley smart people are always very humble because they are smart enough to realize how little they actually know in the grand scheme of things.

So the character of Dr House on the TV show 'House' is unrealistic. Maybe you don’t know that many really smart people, because I can tell you that in their world ego's exist too. That nerd in the corner at the party may appear humble to you, because he feels like a fish out of water, but see him with his other nerd associates and friends and see the pecking order established.

I have seen both sides as I also was heavily into jock activities like martial arts, off road motor biking and water skiing, and well as the sciences. So take my word for it or don’t.

Originally Posted by big swede

By the way leadership has much more to do with the downslide of America than education does because the U.S. has way more smart people than you would ever concede. You have obviously fallen into the worn out stereotypical fat, lazy, stupid American B.S. Get over yourself.

No, everything doesn't come down to leadership. And nor does the blame for things. Even people with poor credit can pick up a pencil, paper and calculator and work out that they can't afford a house loan. They just don't want to do the basic math, because they fear what it may tell them. Just as you didn't want to do the basic math on the Volt's net energy.....

[big swede]

Originally Posted by zete

There's been a correction to the correction. Not sure if it's been posted elsewhere, but the generator does charge the battery, but it's not its primary role.

As the Volt Turns.

According to Lauckner, the battery will receive power from the gas engine when load conditions are light (as in, not under acceleration). When the battery comes back up to a certain level of charge (that figure is still the subject of development at GM), the gas engine can cycle off and the Volt can run for an unspecified period on the stored battery power.

Thus, if through conservative driving one stores up enough juice, it'd be electric only again. Nifty.

Easy! We don't want to ruin this lovely thread with useless facts from people who actually KNOW the answer. It only makes sense really because if the ICE didn't add a little extra juice to the battery pack in non-demanding driving it would never shut off once the battery is depleted.

Good work zete.

[zete]

Originally Posted by big swede

Easy! We don't want to ruin this lovely thread with useless facts from people who actually KNOW the answer. It only makes sense really because if the ICE didn't add a little extra juice to the battery pack in non-demanding driving it would never shut off once the battery is depleted.

Good work zete.

Yeah, I keep forgetting not to confuse everyone with facts or actually looking stuff up.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by big swede

I guess this is what happens when someone takes the internet WAY too seriously. Holy smokes it is now being tied into the downslide of America. Give me a break. No society values jocks over nerds, it's just that jocks are much more visible. And don't get your panties in a bunch about your IQ. Anyone that hoists their IQ out there like you do probably isn't quite as smart as they think they are. Truley smart people are always very humble because they are smart enough to realize how little they actually know in the grand scheme of things.

By the way leadership has much more to do with the downslide of America than education does because the U.S. has way more smart people than you would ever concede. You have obviously fallen into the worn out stereotypical fat, lazy, stupid American B.S. Get over yourself.

Thanks for stating what I was thinking. You will never hear a highly intelligent and successful person throw out such a diatribe.

People who do that are ones with potential, but who didn't make the team. The successful let their accomplishments speak for themselves.

Back to the VOLT, yes - I agree the battery will be in parallel with the genset and the electric motor controller.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by zete

Yeah, I keep forgetting not to confuse everyone with facts or actually looking stuff up.

That backs up exactly what we've been saying. Thanks. The engine comes on when the battery hits a certain point and runs until it hits another higher point, say 35% and 38% for the sake of discussion. Just like we've been saying - pointless to debate specifics, it will come from the battery validation and testing.

So - if you're driving aggressively at the time the batt hits 35 and the generator comes on, the battery might drop to 34 or 33, but when you ease off, coast, brake whatever - the excess power will go into the battery. When it hits 38%, motor shuts off and the batt drifts back down to 35%. They've sized the generator appropriately so its near impossible for the battery to drop much once the generator is on. Remember, no 120 mph, no towing.

[fan]

Originally Posted by goblue

So - if you're driving aggressively at the time the batt hits 35 and the generator comes on, the battery might drop to 34 or 33, but when you ease off, coast, brake whatever - the excess power will go into the battery. When it hits 38%, motor shuts off and the batt drifts back down to 35%. They've sized the generator appropriately so its near impossible for the battery to drop much once the generator is on. Remember, no 120 mph, no towing.

But under continuous stress like hours (mabe pure indiference - Run at maximum speed on the highway; passing anyone on a regular road), the regenerative power would not count much. So, wouldn't it be more likely to rev up the gas engine to its maximum power (100hp), to cope with this situation - generate maximum electricity through the generator.
Also, the maximum power output of the car should be limited considering this aspect, considering one wouldn't want changes in the behaviour of the car(safety reasons).
The maximum power would be the maximum power the gas engine can deliver considering the most extreme case when the battery is depleted.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by zete

There's been a correction to the correction. Not sure if it's been posted elsewhere, but the generator does charge the battery, but it's not its primary role.

As the Volt Turns.

According to Lauckner, the battery will receive power from the gas engine when load conditions are light (as in, not under acceleration). When the battery comes back up to a certain level of charge (that figure is still the subject of development at GM), the gas engine can cycle off and the Volt can run for an unspecified period on the stored battery power.

Thus, if through conservative driving one stores up enough juice, it'd be electric only again. Nifty.

This isn't any revelation as it has been implied in what we already knew. We have always been discussing how the Volt when running the ICE would use the battery as a load lever and I quoted in my useless details:

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Not so fast. Details count.

Larry Nitz said they were able to raise the cycle points from 30-80 to 35-85, but able to dip down into the 30+ range. Add to that he said the engine at 50kW (67hp) "does not have the full power to do the dynamic response [but] that the electric side can, so you do have to depend on the battery".

You don't need some journalist to tell you that if the Volt relies on it's battery for 'dynamic response' which the ICE cannot provide, then it must draw down power out of the battery down below it's charge sustain level. So by definition it must at some point recharge the battery back up to that charge sustain level if it is to avoid a deep discharge (if its not close to home) that may otherwise damage the life of the battery.

The only time that it can avoid that is if it 'knows', as Lutz said and which I also quoted, how far it is from home:

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

So you can probably conclude the meaning of what Lutz said about the system being smart enough to know if you are close to home and the battery not needing to recharge.

Given the battery has 16kWh, but only accesses 8kWh during the normal cycle, if it dipped down below 35% to say 32.5%, for the 'dynamic response' the engine can't provide after charge sustain mode is reached, then this amounts to an equivalent energy consumption to a range of 2 miles of driving.

If 8kWh gives 40 miles then 0.4kWh, which is the differential between 32.5% and 35% SOC, gives 2 miles. To recharge up to the sustain level from there would take far more than 2 miles even if the engine is running constantly at it's 50kW maximum. Given that after providing driving power it has a average surplus of 20% then it would take 10 miles driving to get back to the 35% sustain level. But if the computer knows you are not that far from home then it can leave the battery at the sub 35% sustain level and let it be recharged on plug-in.

And the most likely time that the ICE would cycle off is when the Volt knows it is close to home and it is better to wait to recharge the whole battery up to full in one go than to add a little recharge up to the charge sustain level.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by big swede

Easy! We don't want to ruin this lovely thread with useless facts from people who actually KNOW the answer. It only makes sense really because if the ICE didn't add a little extra juice to the battery pack in non-demanding driving it would never shut off once the battery is depleted.
Good work zete.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[fan]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

You don't need some journalist to tell you that if the Volt relies on it's battery for 'dynamic response' which the ICE cannot provide, then it must draw down power out of the battery down below it's charge sustain level. So by definition it must at some point recharge the battery back up to that charge sustain level if it is to avoid a deep discharge (if its not close to home) that may otherwise damage the life of the battery.

The only time that it can avoid that is if it 'knows', as Lutz said and which I also quoted, how far it is from home:

And the most likely time that the ICE would cycle off is when the Volt knows it is close to home and it is better to wait to recharge the whole battery up to full in one go than to add a little recharge up to the charge sustain level.

From a current thread ('Characteristics of the 1.4l engine'), the gas engine of Volt will deliver 100hp. For this type of car this may be decent as a maximum power output (even when battery is depleted).
I don't think it is wise to assume that a driver of a Volt would like to behave accordingly to Volt's 'will' - When the battery gets to 30% must go home slowly and recharge the battery.
The car may know that is close to home, but the driver may get an urgent call to get fast somewhere 100 miles away. This car should allow him to get decent there.
So, I guess that when the battery is depleted and the car is under stress (driver in a hurry), it should be possible to rev the engine to get those 100 hp or more to power the emotors directly through the generator. Normally the engine would run at optimum rpm deliver less power to the generator.
Also, the 'power of the car' should be limited to this maximum power the gas engine can deliver with or without charged battery. It wouldn't be safe to have the car behave differently depending on the state of the battery. Like making a pass and especting to get 6s to 60mpg, but since the battery is down, this time you get only 12s and best wishes.
And since it's an electric car, people would be glad to get 9s to 60m and 100 mph speed, so no need to conceive complicated and dangerous scenarios for various power outputs of the car.
It may be possible to fit the car with a more powerfull engine for better performance (like the 140 hp version the Curze is getting), but that would mean that either the engine will assist more the batteries, or the batteries would have to deliver more power (more charge-discharge; decreased lifetime). Allowing for more power output means allowing for more agresive driving, which lowers the mpg and the mpg figure is the make it or break it for the car.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by fan

From a current thread ('Characteristics of the 1.4l engine'), the gas engine of Volt will deliver 100hp. For this type of car this may be decent as a maximum power output (even when battery is depleted).
I don't think it is wise to assume that a driver of a Volt would like to behave accordingly to Volt's 'will' - When the battery gets to 30% must go home slowly and recharge the battery.

The car may know that is close to home, but the driver may get an urgent call to get fast somewhere 100 miles away. This car should allow him to get decent there.

The Volt 1.4 engine will have very different performance characteristics from any conventionally applied 1.4 in GM's range. It will be maximized for fuel efficiency in static operational bands. The battery will provide the power for dynamic response.

I don't know where you are getting this idea that the Volt behaves according to the Volt's 'will'. And that after it reaches or goes below it's charge sustain level (GM advises currently at 35%), and is close to home, that it goes slowly?

What I stated is that when close to home it will not bother to recharge back up to it's charge sustain level. That has no correlation with going slowly.

Originally Posted by fan

So, I guess that when the battery is depleted and the car is under stress (driver in a hurry), it should be possible to rev the engine to get those 100 hp or more to power the emotors directly through the generator. Normally the engine would run at optimum rpm deliver less power to the generator.

Also, the 'power of the car' should be limited to this maximum power the gas engine can deliver with or without charged battery. It wouldn't be safe to have the car behave differently depending on the state of the battery. Like making a pass and especting to get 6s to 60mpg, but since the battery is down, this time you get only 12s and best wishes.

And since it's an electric car, people would be glad to get 9s to 60m and 100 mph speed, so no need to conceive complicated and dangerous scenarios for various power outputs of the car.

GM has not published what the operational power bands will be for the ICE although 3 discrete levels have been mentioned along with the ICE's ability to transition smoothly between these so as not to suddenly surprise the passengers.

As to behaving differently after the charge sustain level is reached and the ICE is tasked: That was only my view when we all still were under the impression from GM statements (about 0-60 in 5 secs) so that I insisted that the ICE could not maintain these performance levels. And that therefore this would have to result in some noticeable performance drop.

However, now that GM has backed off hugely from it's performance claims for the Volt in electric only mode, I have stated clearly that I now believe it's performance will be adequate but not more than typical economy cars both in electric only mode as well as thereafter in ICE charge sustain mode as I previously held.

My views based on the information we knew then were correct and the others view that the Volt would have high performance at all times were wrong. Now my adjusted view, based on the lasted information, is also correct and still the others views are wrong.

Perhaps you can now explain that to the others on this thread....

[goblue]

Originally Posted by fan

From a current thread ('Characteristics of the 1.4l engine'), the gas engine of Volt will deliver 100hp. For this type of car this may be decent as a maximum power output (even when battery is depleted).
I don't think it is wise to assume that a driver of a Volt would like to behave accordingly to Volt's 'will' - When the battery gets to 30% must go home slowly and recharge the battery.
The car may know that is close to home, but the driver may get an urgent call to get fast somewhere 100 miles away. This car should allow him to get decent there.
So, I guess that when the battery is depleted and the car is under stress (driver in a hurry), it should be possible to rev the engine to get those 100 hp or more to power the emotors directly through the generator. Normally the engine would run at optimum rpm deliver less power to the generator.
Also, the 'power of the car' should be limited to this maximum power the gas engine can deliver with or without charged battery. It wouldn't be safe to have the car behave differently depending on the state of the battery. Like making a pass and especting to get 6s to 60mpg, but since the battery is down, this time you get only 12s and best wishes.
And since it's an electric car, people would be glad to get 9s to 60m and 100 mph speed, so no need to conceive complicated and dangerous scenarios for various power outputs of the car.
It may be possible to fit the car with a more powerfull engine for better performance (like the 140 hp version the Curze is getting), but that would mean that either the engine will assist more the batteries, or the batteries would have to deliver more power (more charge-discharge; decreased lifetime). Allowing for more power output means allowing for more agresive driving, which lowers the mpg and the mpg figure is the make it or break it for the car.

This is how rumors get started.

The VOLT will not have proximity detection to one's destination. People change their mind. Remember, there will be future VOLT drivers whose TVs will stop working in February.

Most people on this site are seriously overestimating the average power output of their engines during driving. Thanks to the need for transmissions - when accelerating you are very rarely using the max output of the engine, even with the pedal floored. Look at hp curves, they are not flat. Remember, the VOLT's motor can supply a rated hp continuously into the generator. Road conditions, speed, traction do not affect that generator. There is no shifting. It can run all day long at max output - without varying one bit.

Will the generator have a few operating bands? Possibly. We'll see. It could run at max efficiency and cycle more, or it could try to match the power band with the current demands, and run more constantly. That could be more efficient as less power would go into the battery, and thus less would come out when the motor was off, but that depends on what the bands do to the watts / gallon generated by the genset. These are the types of things that will be figured out during validation. NVH concerns could play a part too. It could sacrifice max efficiency to be quiet unless max efficiency correlates with max power and is necessary.

Bottom line. You drive how you want. When you hit a certain percentage of charge, the generator comes on. It runs until a certain higher state of charge is reached. Then it shuts off. If you just happen to pull into the driveway and you could have made it, but instead the motor ran for the last 2 minutes, who really cares. The overriding concern is consistency of experience for the driver. Thats why 120mph and 6 sec 0-60s went by the wayside.

Maybe future e-flex vehicles will use DoD on the genset to allow for more spirited driving. A low power gen mode for normal driving, and a high power mode for sustained high speed operation. Who knows. That's not in the design goals for the VOLT.

[fan]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

I don't know where you are getting this idea that the Volt behaves according to the Volt's 'will'. And that after it reaches or goes below it's charge sustain level (GM advises currently at 35%), and is close to home, that it goes slowly?

What I stated is that when close to home it will not bother to recharge back up to it's charge sustain level. That has no correlation with going slowly.

I was underlining that the car should be able to sustain normal usage, that not every driver would follow the manual and plug-in the car at 35%. By 'going slow' I was trying to sugest a cartoonish driver's obediance by stopping whatever he's doing and go home to recharge the battery being carefull not to floor it - more like a metaphor. I didn't say that the car should slow down automatically when the battery is dicharged - I detailed quite the oposite, that the car should have constant performance parameters(acceleration, speed).

[Hybridized]

Thanks Dan, Zete, and Monaro for the informative posts. I'll just mention again a bit or arithmetic I posted earlier that I think is a useful rule of thumb to keep in mind when further information is released how large the capacity band is in CS mode: every one percent of the battery is about a 30 meter vertical climb if four people are being carried.