IL Corrects Volt Story: Batteries Will NOT Charge When Driving; GM Website Differs

[big swede]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

And I'm not backpedalling on anything. My stance on the after electric performance is exactly the same; but with new information I am now downgrading my view of the electric only performance too.

Downgraded your view hahaha are you a politician by chance.

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Just as people thought the Volt was not going to have ordinary proportions and styling compared to the Volt Concept, so too you people should downgrade your expectations for the performance or you will be disappointed like so many are with the Production Volt styling.

Styling is always subjective while mechanical abilities are easily measured. No one thinks or expects this car to be a race car or even fast for that matter. It will have the equivalent of 150hp so if you're expecting something else of course you will be disappointed.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Some more useless facts……………

The Volt has 8kWh of energy to use between 85% and 35% State of Charge to get it 40 miles distance. 8kWh of electric energy = the energy in 0.25 gallons of gasoline.

That’s 160 mpg.

But we have to translate this into electric motor v gasoline engine efficiencies.

The Tesla’s electric motor to wheel efficiency is 90%. If Volt’s electric motor is 90% efficient then only 0.225 gallons of gasoline equivalent energy gets to the ground.

Now lets look at a normal car using that same NET amount of energy to go 40 miles.

Modern gasoline/manual gearbox engines have an average efficiency 30% or less when used to power an automobile. So if a conventional engine/gearbox car used 0.75 gallons to go 40 miles then 30% of that would be 0.225 gallons of energy getting to the ground, the same NET energy as the electric Volt.

So, 0.75 gallons of gasoline to travel 40 miles equates to 53.mpg.

Given that the Volt is heavy for it’s size, what kind of performance do you guys think a conventional gasoline/gearbox engined Volt, or similar sized and weighted car, would give in order to get 53 mpg?

I’m thinking it would be somewhat under-whelming. So if the electric Volt has the same NET energy to travel the same 40 miles distance then it’s performance will be the same. In other words; under-whelming.

Knock yourselves out trying to disprove the facts……….

GM is saying a 0-60 of 8.5 sec, so rather than even attempt to take apart what you wrote above, I'll just go with that. It's on par with what most midsize cars with 4 cyl engines get (similar weight). So, one of your assumptions is wrong. I drove a car about the size of the VOLT for a few years with a 4 cyl. 0-60 was 8-9 sec. It was sort of a fun car. No Corvette, but I enjoyed driving it. My expectations for vehicles are higher than most. If they deliver on that level of performance - most people will be very satisfied.

It doesn't fit with your "calculations" but really, what does that matter? Have you ever designed an alternative fuel vehicle? Worked on one? Even been part of a design competition for an alternative fuel vehicle? Honestly, who are you to basically sit here and tell us all that what GM is saying is impossible.

[big swede]

Originally Posted by goblue

Honestly, who are you to basically sit here and tell us all that what GM is saying is impossible.

I think we are now seeing the product of parents who subscribe to the "my kid cannot do anything wrong" school of parenting. You know the ones who only enroll their kids in sporting leagues where they don't keep score and every team gets trophies at the end of the year. No one ever loses or is told they are doing something wrong because, after all it's water balloons and chocolate chip cookies for everyone. woohoo

Later in life when someone actually disagrees with them they then resort to calling people retards and the like.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by goblue

GM is saying a 0-60 of 8.5 sec, so rather than even attempt to take apart what you wrote above, I'll just go with that. It's on par with what most midsize cars with 4 cyl engines get (similar weight). So, one of your assumptions is wrong. I drove a car about the size of the VOLT for a few years with a 4 cyl. 0-60 was 8-9 sec. It was sort of a fun car. No Corvette, but I enjoyed driving it. My expectations for vehicles are higher than most. If they deliver on that level of performance - most people will be very satisfied.

It doesn't fit with your "calculations" but really, what does that matter? Have you ever designed an alternative fuel vehicle? Worked on one? Even been part of a design competition for an alternative fuel vehicle? Honestly, who are you to basically sit here and tell us all that what GM is saying is impossible.

My suspicion is that you and big swede simply do not have the where-with-all to check and contest my calculations and there implications. Hell I bet you don't even understand the engineering or physics. Not to worry, I can say I told you so when you eventually find out. You guys are like all those who told me house prices would keep going up…

As to your last comment, what exactly is it GM says that I'm saying is impossible. If I have any questions about the Volt that I didn't understand I'd simply email Lutz; as he and I are on a first name basis.

My contention is simply that Volt will be a disappointment to many peoples expectations and I've told Bob that, and that he should release more details so as to deflate the expectations bubble before release or it will bite them in the backside....

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by big swede

I think we are now seeing the product of parents who subscribe to the "my kid cannot do anything wrong" school of parenting. You know the ones who only enroll their kids in sporting leagues where they don't keep score and every team gets trophies at the end of the year. No one ever loses or is told they are doing something wrong because, after all it's water balloons and chocolate chip cookies for everyone. woohoo

Later in life when someone actually disagrees with them they then resort to calling people retards and the like.

You may be close. Before heading off to University my science teacher once told me that I was the only student he had ever met who he thought would one day win the Nobel Prize for Science.

And a giant US multinational corporation I worked for said I have the highest levels of IQ and technical aptitude across the board in all disciplines they had ever tested. So maybe you are correct. Maybe I'm just a product of over patronisation.

Oh well, I'll just have to live with it.....

[big swede]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

My suspicion is that you and big swede simply do not have the where-with-all to check and contest my calculations and there implications.

I think were making progress goblue. We went from tards to not having the where-with-all to contest the GMI genious.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by big swede

I think were making progress goblue. We went from tards to not having the where-with-all to contest the GMI genious.

It's nice to see an American derogatory about intellectual ability. Something that seems to be a social plague these days.

If you want to know what happens when a society values jocks over nerds just compare the downslide of your country compared to the rise of Asia where they value education in the sciences and intellectualism.

I don't have to make my point - your country is making it for me as we speak.

And its a sad tale to watch unfold...........




BTW its genius, not genious. Unless of course you were trying to say that I’m generous, in which case I withdraw my snide retort.

[fan]

It would not be acceptable for the car to lose power - for safety reasons. It would be lame to get used to 5s to 60 miles acceleration and 140 m speed and find out when making a pass that the battery can't help anymore and your car cannot do more than 10s, or you can't reach the speed you were used. This would mean high chances of crashes. One can imagine how would media react if this type of accidents would happen - but we shouldn't get that far because it will not happen to have power losses.

The battery may be able to deliver more power, but the power delivered by the battery would be limited.
The power output should be limited to what the car can deliver when the battery is depleted. The big\important assumption is that the engine can be revved up to deliver its maximum power to the generator and from generator to the battery(or directly to the wheels) . This must be the case. It would be underwhelming to have the maximum power limited to what the engine running at optimum rpm can deliver.

Also, the numbers for Volt - acceleration (9s) and speed - are pretty close to what a Cobalt would get having that same engine.

[AMERICA 123]

OK, this is all very good - even impressive.

However...... we are going to have some fun with it.

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

You may be close. Before heading off to University my science teacher once told me that I was the only student he had ever met who he thought would one day win the Nobel Prize for Science.

So....... now he's 0 for 1.....did he miss anymore - going the other way ?

Or, did you just choke ?

**********************

1.)

And a giant US multinational corporation I worked for said I have the highest levels of IQ and technical aptitude across the board in all disciplines they had ever tested. So maybe you are correct. Maybe I'm just a product of over patronisation.

2.)

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

It's nice to see an American derogatory about intellectual ability. Something that seems to be a social plague these days.

If you want to know what happens when a society values jocks over nerds just compare the downslide of your country compared to the rise of Asia where they value education in the sciences and intellectualism.

I don't have to make my point - your country is making it for me as we speak.

And its a sad tale to watch unfold...........

So that's an American/US firm - from the same country as described ????

Appears you have proved 'your'' 'point'.

Damn decent of you to give us a choice as to just which one.

Btw, concerning the USA and Australia ....... how would you compare and contrast the implied intellectual capabilities of the 'lead' lemming off the cliff - and one following ?

***********************
This makes more inexplicable ..... I think ? - the continuing miscalculations.....

Where is your brake regen energy - recharge amount ???

Lots of it - even in the USA highway number.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

If true then in the three scenarios that you laid out above it seems to confirm my initial thought that in certain conditions the ICE+generator does power the e-motor directly, bypassing the battery. The path of least resistance as you note.

At this time during very strong accelerations or needs... hold your hats... the Volt would be a parallel hybrid being run at the same time by the ...
ICE ==> generator ==>
............................... both power sources feeding the e-motor by separate routes
PLUS: battery pack==>

Most of the other times the Volt is a series hybrid...
ICE ==> generator ==> battery ==> e-motor

Now the question is when the battery reaches it's lowest available level, say 30%, but the driver suddenly wants maximum output with the battery prohibited by software from contributing ( can't go lower than 30% ) is then the vehicle being driven ONLY by the..

ICE ==> generator ==> e-motor

with maybe a 'trickle charge' to the battery?

OTOH.. in the response from Lutz several pages back he apparently said that all the power from the ICE went through the battery. Either the ICE output always does go through the battery ( series hybrid ) or it sometimes takes the path of least resistance around the battery ( parallel hybrid). Therein lies the conundrum.

When a vehicle is referred to as a series or parallel hybrid, they are not referring to the battery. They are referring to the gas engine, and the electric motor. If the two can BOTH directly power the wheels (either together or seperate), that would be a parallel hybrid. If the gas engine's only contribution is generating electricity, and it is not mechanically connected to the wheels (such as on the Volt), it cannot function as a parallel hybrid.

But I do see where you get the parallel "implication".

This is going to do nothing but further confuse the issue, but........

In the Volt's system, the battery is in the circuit between the gas engine and the electric motor (kinda what Lutz said). But it is wired in parallel. The drive system itself is still a series hybrid, but the battery is always in the circuit, but parallel. This means that even without any switching, the battery either :

1) Stores energy when the ICE is producing more power than the electric motor is using.

2) Delivers energy when the ICE is producing less power than the electric motor is using.

3) Is unaffected when the ICE is matching the power needs of the electric moror.

The battery is the "dumb" part of the system, it just stores or delivers whatever charge or load it faces. The driver will control the electric demand of the electric motor (pushing on the "gas" pedal). The vehicles software will control the ICE's contribution in determining when to turn it on or off, and maybe a bit of changes in revs.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by Hybridized

What are the latest specs for range on one tank of fuel, and how large is the tank ?

The latest range of the Volt (that I know of, it can always change) is about 400 miles. Minus the 40 mile electric range, we get 360 miles on gas (most cars only go around 300 miles on a tank). At 50 mpg, that would take about 7.2 gallons. Wow. I had to calculate that again. That's not much gas!

[fan]

[quote=CaptainDan;1520927]In the Volt's system, the battery is in the circuit between the gas engine and the electric motor (kinda what Lutz said). But it is wired in parallel. The drive system itself is still a series hybrid, but the battery is always in the circuit, but parallel.

That was the issue, whether there are 2 wires directly from the generator to the lectric motor, or not. I don't see why ther would not be this parralel connection.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

You may be close. Before heading off to University my science teacher once told me that I was the only student he had ever met who he thought would one day win the Nobel Prize for Science.

And a giant US multinational corporation I worked for said I have the highest levels of IQ and technical aptitude across the board in all disciplines they had ever tested. So maybe you are correct. Maybe I'm just a product of over patronisation.

Oh well, I'll just have to live with it.....

I've lost a great deal of respect for the nobel commitee after they gave Al Gore a Nobel PEACE prize for "his" work on global warming.

And even his global warming work is not scientific, it's political.

No reflection on you, MonaroSS. I, for one, am one American that DOES honor the sciences. Besides, you've got a cool car!

[big swede]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

It's nice to see an American derogatory about intellectual ability. Something that seems to be a social plague these days.

If you want to know what happens when a society values jocks over nerds just compare the downslide of your country compared to the rise of Asia where they value education in the sciences and intellectualism.

I don't have to make my point - your country is making it for me as we speak.

And its a sad tale to watch unfold...........




BTW its genius, not genious. Unless of course you were trying to say that I’m generous, in which case I withdraw my snide retort.

I guess this is what happens when someone takes the internet WAY too seriously. Holy smokes it is now being tied into the downslide of America. Give me a break. No society values jocks over nerds, it's just that jocks are much more visible. And don't get your panties in a bunch about your IQ. Anyone that hoists their IQ out there like you do probably isn't quite as smart as they think they are. Truley smart people are always very humble because they are smart enough to realize how little they actually know in the grand scheme of things.

By the way leadership has much more to do with the downslide of America than education does because the U.S. has way more smart people than you would ever concede. You have obviously fallen into the worn out stereotypical fat, lazy, stupid American B.S. Get over yourself.

[zete]

There's been a correction to the correction. Not sure if it's been posted elsewhere, but the generator does charge the battery, but it's not its primary role.

As the Volt Turns.

According to Lauckner, the battery will receive power from the gas engine when load conditions are light (as in, not under acceleration). When the battery comes back up to a certain level of charge (that figure is still the subject of development at GM), the gas engine can cycle off and the Volt can run for an unspecified period on the stored battery power.

Thus, if through conservative driving one stores up enough juice, it'd be electric only again. Nifty.