Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks

Hurricane · 11-09-2007, 10:17 AM

Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks

Driving automakers' ever-improving hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles is a setup for a letdown.
They are getting to be so good, so ordinary, so much like any other vehicle in the way they drive, that you start thinking you ought to just go get one. After all, they issue no pollutants, and they go about twice as far as gasoline vehicles do on the same amount of energy.

The Equinoxes meet all federal regulations except one written when battery power was the only kind of electric car envisioned. GM says it has an exemption from that one and expects it to be rewritten to accommodate fuel cells and says the Equinoxes would pass muster under the anticipated rewrite.

GM plans to market a vehicle designed from the ground up to be a fuel-cell machine in 2011. Meantime, the Driveway Equinox fuel-cell SUVs are supposed to gather feedback from real-world use of hydrogen-fueled vehicles and jump-start the notion that fuel cells are mainstream.

• Performance. Good off the line, adequate at higher speed. A fuel-cell vehicle is an electric vehicle, the fuel cell doing the work of the battery powering the electric motor. And electric motors have a delightful trait. They deliver all the pounds-feet of torque, or low-speed grunt, that they have the instant they begin to turn. No revving required, the way you'd have to do in a gasoline engine.

Horsepower is about 120, vs. 180 or more typical of similar gasoline vehicles. So the high-speed moves that rely on ponies more than pounds-feet weren't as crisp. Still, passing and merging shouldn't be the subject of many complaints from the Driveway drivers.

The transmission has but a single speed, relying on the electric motor's low-speed oomph to take the place of low-ratio gearing to get the buggy motivated. No shifting. Just a continuing ramp of power. Smooth, if not exactly to everybody's taste.

• Noise. Not much, and that's a big deal. Most fuel-cell prototypes have lots of whine, mainly from the compressor that shoves air into the fuel cell, where it combines with the hydrogen in a process that produces electricity and, out the exhaust pipes, water vapor. The electric motors also are prone to whine.

GM has switched to a different type of air compressor, more like you'd find on a small turbocharger than in a big, gutsy supercharger. That has all but eliminated the howl.

The one place that could use considerable improvement is a combination of roar and whoosh produced by the system that cools the onboard battery. It's about under the front seats, so it's pretty close to the driver's ear. GM is continuing to work on ducting, routing and positioning to slice that noise.

The battery collects electricity being produced but not immediately needed to run the motor and holds it for times you really, really need an extra shot of juice you can't get from the fuel cell.

• Appearance. Similar to the conventional, gasoline-fueled, 2007 Equinox with a couple of notable exceptions.

Instead of round tailpipes out back, the fuel-cell version has four rectangular slots in what car folks call the rear fascia. That's the part that looks like it's the bumper but really is just a plastic covering.

Inside, trim and touches unique to the fuel-cell vehicles give it a premium look and feel compared with the gasoline Equinox, which is a bit disappointing inside in spite of the upgraded materials and controls.

• Function. About the same as a gasoline model. The rear cargo area is compromised a bit because the third of three hydrogen tanks sits higher than the two in front of it, putting a horizontal bulge behind the rear seats, about where you might want space for beach chairs or big bags.

• Safety. In most respects, same as the gasoline model. And in what might be contrary to popular belief, hydrogen almost certainly is a safer fuel than gasoline. If you spill gasoline at the filling station, for instance, it pools and the volatile vapors concentrate. If you spill hydrogen, it evaporates into the atmosphere at 40 mph because it's lighter than air.

No pooling, no concentration of fumes that go boom. Too, the Equinox — common among fuel-cell cars — has fail-safe links between the vehicle and the fuel pump. If the hose isn't hooked up right, the pump won't start.

The Equinox fuel cell has passed the same 50-mph rear crash test that gasoline models must endure without a leak in their fuel systems, GM says.

What about all that water vapor, especially in winter in Northern states? GM says fuel-cell exhaust has only 7% more moisture than the exhaust of a gasoline engine. It's possible to develop traps that hold the water temporarily, then let it evaporate as the vehicle is driven, to avoid concentrating water in one spot where it might freeze.

Getting the cost, and therefore the price, down to agreeable levels always taxes new technology. But judging by the Equinox Driveway fuel-cell vehicle, reducing the cost seems the only serious challenge. It's smoother, mostly quieter and generally nicer to drive than a gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle.

• What's the drivetrain? Electric motor driving the front wheels, rated 120 horsepower, 236 pounds-feet of torque, mated to a single-speed transmission.

GM says the rig will accelerate from standstill to 60 mph in 12 seconds, hit about 100 mph flat out and go 150 miles before running dry of the 4.2 kilograms of hydrogen stored in three under-floor tanks pressurized at 10,000 pounds per square inch. The gasoline engine and transmission are removed.

• How thirsty? GM says the fuel-cell vehicles would have government mileage ratings equivalent to 35 miles per gallon of gasoline in town, 45 mpg on the highway and 39 mpg in combined driving.

A kilogram of hydrogen has the energy of a gallon of gasoline — almost exactly so, GM says — so Equinox's ratings in hydrogen terms are 35 miles per kilogram in town, 45 mpkg on the highway, 39 mpkg in combined driving.

Good for 150 miles per fill (4.2 kg in the three tanks), GM calculates.

Trip computer in the test vehicle showed the equivalent of 38.8 miles per gallon in a mix of suburban driving, from stop-go to high-speed freeway.

• Overall: A little quieter and, bingo; bring it on. Get busy on hydrogen stations, energy companies.

The bottom line on a nifty, green driving machine

• Quick. At least up to 30 mph or so, thanks to the instant-go electric motor.

• Quiet and noisy. None of the normal fuel-cell air-compressor whine, but disturbing roar from the battery-cooling fan.

• Regular. Goes, stops, turns in normal fashion. If that roar were gone, you'd think you were driving a conventional gasoline vehicle.

• Present. It's here, now, on urban streets, a hint at a petroleum-free future.

More here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...-equinox_N.htm

MechEng · 11-09-2007, 10:37 AM

Great! GM just needs to add the Gen 5 fuel cell and Li-Ion batteries and the range would more than double.

This article just makes me giddy with excitement

newclasshero · 11-09-2007, 10:39 AM

It is going to be good to see the public thought on the Project. I imagine that they echo many of the smae things as this review. Of the hurdles/drawbacks it seems that all are monor except the cost. Oh yeah, and the availability of hydrogen fuel stations. I am sure that will change with time though.

eaton53 · 11-09-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newclasshero

It is going to be good to see the public thought on the Project. I imagine that they echo many of the smae things as this review. Of the hurdles/drawbacks it seems that all are monor except the cost. Oh yeah, and the availability of hydrogen fuel stations. I am sure that will change with time though.

GM is the one automaker that could solve this on their own by putting pumps at their dealerships.

LONGHORN · 11-09-2007, 11:03 AM

Good to see GM moving forward with this,of course they could start selling this in SoCal where the infrastructure is small but emerging for this........subsidize the price and get some good PR..................By the way, Honda will be debuting their Fuel Cell car for the public next week at the LA Auto show.

boynton6spd · 11-09-2007, 11:15 AM

hydrogen cost per gallon/equavalent?

jkennedy293 · 11-09-2007, 11:20 AM

Does anyone know the cost of a kg of hydrogen?

MechEng · 11-09-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkennedy293

Does anyone know the cost of a kg of hydrogen?

Well that is a difficult to answer. The answer is it depends how it's made. The numbers I have seen have been $3.00 to $7.00 per Kg. So for a vehicle like this it would cost between $13.50 to $31.50 to fill the tanks using these prices.

I'm guessing the $3.00/Kg would represent hydrogen from natural gas or from some other type of fossil fuel cracking process (so far this is the cheapest way to make hydrogen).

The $7.00/Kg I'm guessing would be the cost for making hydrogen from solar energy.

Any electrical means of producing hydrogen will depend on the cost of producting the electricity.

Keep in mind GM's Gen 5 fuel cell is reported to be about twice as efficent as the Gen 4 fuel cell in these vehicles.

ByTheLake · 11-09-2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkennedy293

Does anyone know the cost of a kg of hydrogen?

Aside from the financial cost, it would be good to know the environmental cost of creating that kg of hydrogen, too.

I don't know the answer, I'm just posing the question. Sounds nice, but if it takes a mountain of electricity to produce the hydrogen, the net effect could be negative.

lonestarnox · 11-09-2007, 11:59 AM

Many of the comments posted to the USA Today article alluded to the flammibility of hydrogen. Is this a concern on fuel cell vehicles? Has this Equinox been crash tested in the same manner as a gasoline fueled vehicle?

MechEng · 11-09-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonestarnox

Many of the comments posted to the USA Today article alluded to the flammibility of hydrogen. Is this a concern on fuel cell vehicles? Has this Equinox been crash tested in the same manner as a gasoline fueled vehicle?

If you read the article it says that the Fuel cell Equinox used here was completely crash tested to meet the same standards as gasoline vehicles.

From the Article:

Quote:

"• Safety. In most respects, same as the gasoline model. And in what might be contrary to popular belief, hydrogen almost certainly is a safer fuel than gasoline. If you spill gasoline at the filling station, for instance, it pools and the volatile vapors concentrate. If you spill hydrogen, it evaporates into the atmosphere at 40 mph because it's lighter than air.

No pooling, no concentration of fumes that go boom. Too, the Equinox — common among fuel-cell cars — has fail-safe links between the vehicle and the fuel pump. If the hose isn't hooked up right, the pump won't start.

The Equinox fuel cell has passed the same 50-mph rear crash test that gasoline models must endure without a leak in their fuel systems, GM says.
"

Hydrogen vaporizes so fast the probability of combustion is very small (FAR smaller than gasoline).

To give an example. The Hindenburg did not explode. It burned. Now lets just say for this examples sake the Hindenburg was full of gasoline and it caught fire. There would be no film because everybody within 1 mile would be dead from the explosion.

eaton53 · 11-09-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonestarnox

Many of the comments posted to the USA Today article alluded to the flammibility of hydrogen. Is this a concern on fuel cell vehicles?

Do those idiots think gasoline is not flammable?

Quote:

Has this Equinox been crash tested in the same manner as a gasoline fueled vehicle?

From the article....

Quote:

The Equinox fuel cell has passed the same 50-mph rear crash test that gasoline models must endure without a leak in their fuel systems, GM says.

pinyon · 11-09-2007, 12:27 PM

If the infrastructure for refueling is in place it would be nice to see a limited release of a fuel cell volt soon after the ice version.

I should go research but in the interest of laziness does a fuel cell ecoflex use the same idea of just charging the battery or would the fuel cell drive the wheels and the center battery area be used for hydrogen storage?

megeebee · 11-09-2007, 12:28 PM

" Hoo- effing- ray!'

Dgrocho · 11-09-2007, 12:30 PM

I've seen videos of both gasoline and hydrogen vehicles in crashes that "target" the fuel tank, and I'll be the first to say that I'd rather have hydrogen in that tank.

That 150 mile capacity will hold back most buyers, hopefully others are right and the next gen fuel cell will double the capacity.

This is very disconcerting for me though, this technology leap-frogs the Volt's technology. I love the Volt, but if this is to be marketed in 2011, the Volt will only last as long as it takes to build a hydrogen infrastructure, and GM could definately support such an infrastructure at their dealerships alone (and reinforce the "stealership" concept). It's unfortunate really...

11-09-2007, 10:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
Hurricane News Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,429	Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Driving automakers' ever-improving hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles is a setup for a letdown. They are getting to be so good, so ordinary, so much like any other vehicle in the way they drive, that you start thinking you ought to just go get one. After all, they issue no pollutants, and they go about twice as far as gasoline vehicles do on the same amount of energy. The Equinoxes meet all federal regulations except one written when battery power was the only kind of electric car envisioned. GM says it has an exemption from that one and expects it to be rewritten to accommodate fuel cells and says the Equinoxes would pass muster under the anticipated rewrite. GM plans to market a vehicle designed from the ground up to be a fuel-cell machine in 2011. Meantime, the Driveway Equinox fuel-cell SUVs are supposed to gather feedback from real-world use of hydrogen-fueled vehicles and jump-start the notion that fuel cells are mainstream. • Performance. Good off the line, adequate at higher speed. A fuel-cell vehicle is an electric vehicle, the fuel cell doing the work of the battery powering the electric motor. And electric motors have a delightful trait. They deliver all the pounds-feet of torque, or low-speed grunt, that they have the instant they begin to turn. No revving required, the way you'd have to do in a gasoline engine. Horsepower is about 120, vs. 180 or more typical of similar gasoline vehicles. So the high-speed moves that rely on ponies more than pounds-feet weren't as crisp. Still, passing and merging shouldn't be the subject of many complaints from the Driveway drivers. The transmission has but a single speed, relying on the electric motor's low-speed oomph to take the place of low-ratio gearing to get the buggy motivated. No shifting. Just a continuing ramp of power. Smooth, if not exactly to everybody's taste. • Noise. Not much, and that's a big deal. Most fuel-cell prototypes have lots of whine, mainly from the compressor that shoves air into the fuel cell, where it combines with the hydrogen in a process that produces electricity and, out the exhaust pipes, water vapor. The electric motors also are prone to whine. GM has switched to a different type of air compressor, more like you'd find on a small turbocharger than in a big, gutsy supercharger. That has all but eliminated the howl. The one place that could use considerable improvement is a combination of roar and whoosh produced by the system that cools the onboard battery. It's about under the front seats, so it's pretty close to the driver's ear. GM is continuing to work on ducting, routing and positioning to slice that noise. The battery collects electricity being produced but not immediately needed to run the motor and holds it for times you really, really need an extra shot of juice you can't get from the fuel cell. • Appearance. Similar to the conventional, gasoline-fueled, 2007 Equinox with a couple of notable exceptions. Instead of round tailpipes out back, the fuel-cell version has four rectangular slots in what car folks call the rear fascia. That's the part that looks like it's the bumper but really is just a plastic covering. Inside, trim and touches unique to the fuel-cell vehicles give it a premium look and feel compared with the gasoline Equinox, which is a bit disappointing inside in spite of the upgraded materials and controls. • Function. About the same as a gasoline model. The rear cargo area is compromised a bit because the third of three hydrogen tanks sits higher than the two in front of it, putting a horizontal bulge behind the rear seats, about where you might want space for beach chairs or big bags. • Safety. In most respects, same as the gasoline model. And in what might be contrary to popular belief, hydrogen almost certainly is a safer fuel than gasoline. If you spill gasoline at the filling station, for instance, it pools and the volatile vapors concentrate. If you spill hydrogen, it evaporates into the atmosphere at 40 mph because it's lighter than air. No pooling, no concentration of fumes that go boom. Too, the Equinox — common among fuel-cell cars — has fail-safe links between the vehicle and the fuel pump. If the hose isn't hooked up right, the pump won't start. The Equinox fuel cell has passed the same 50-mph rear crash test that gasoline models must endure without a leak in their fuel systems, GM says. What about all that water vapor, especially in winter in Northern states? GM says fuel-cell exhaust has only 7% more moisture than the exhaust of a gasoline engine. It's possible to develop traps that hold the water temporarily, then let it evaporate as the vehicle is driven, to avoid concentrating water in one spot where it might freeze. Getting the cost, and therefore the price, down to agreeable levels always taxes new technology. But judging by the Equinox Driveway fuel-cell vehicle, reducing the cost seems the only serious challenge. It's smoother, mostly quieter and generally nicer to drive than a gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle. • What's the drivetrain? Electric motor driving the front wheels, rated 120 horsepower, 236 pounds-feet of torque, mated to a single-speed transmission. GM says the rig will accelerate from standstill to 60 mph in 12 seconds, hit about 100 mph flat out and go 150 miles before running dry of the 4.2 kilograms of hydrogen stored in three under-floor tanks pressurized at 10,000 pounds per square inch. The gasoline engine and transmission are removed. • How thirsty? GM says the fuel-cell vehicles would have government mileage ratings equivalent to 35 miles per gallon of gasoline in town, 45 mpg on the highway and 39 mpg in combined driving. A kilogram of hydrogen has the energy of a gallon of gasoline — almost exactly so, GM says — so Equinox's ratings in hydrogen terms are 35 miles per kilogram in town, 45 mpkg on the highway, 39 mpkg in combined driving. Good for 150 miles per fill (4.2 kg in the three tanks), GM calculates. Trip computer in the test vehicle showed the equivalent of 38.8 miles per gallon in a mix of suburban driving, from stop-go to high-speed freeway. • Overall: A little quieter and, bingo; bring it on. Get busy on hydrogen stations, energy companies. The bottom line on a nifty, green driving machine • Quick. At least up to 30 mph or so, thanks to the instant-go electric motor. • Quiet and noisy. None of the normal fuel-cell air-compressor whine, but disturbing roar from the battery-cooling fan. • Regular. Goes, stops, turns in normal fashion. If that roar were gone, you'd think you were driving a conventional gasoline vehicle. • Present. It's here, now, on urban streets, a hint at a petroleum-free future. More here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...-equinox_N.htm __________________ 2007 Yukon XL Denali 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Last edited by Hurricane : 11-09-2007 at 10:20 AM.

11-09-2007, 10:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
MechEng 2.8 Liter Turbocharged V6 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Drives: 2007 Chevrolet Cobalt LT 2.2L I4 Posts: 896	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Great! GM just needs to add the Gen 5 fuel cell and Li-Ion batteries and the range would more than double. This article just makes me giddy with excitement __________________

11-09-2007, 10:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
newclasshero 2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 174	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks It is going to be good to see the public thought on the Project. I imagine that they echo many of the smae things as this review. Of the hurdles/drawbacks it seems that all are monor except the cost. Oh yeah, and the availability of hydrogen fuel stations. I am sure that will change with time though.

11-09-2007, 11:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
LONGHORN 2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 216	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Good to see GM moving forward with this,of course they could start selling this in SoCal where the infrastructure is small but emerging for this........subsidize the price and get some good PR..................By the way, Honda will be debuting their Fuel Cell car for the public next week at the LA Auto show.

11-09-2007, 11:15 AM	#6 (permalink)
boynton6spd 1.8 Liter ECOTEC Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 45	So...For the consumer, how much will hydrogen cost per gallon/equavalent?

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11-09-2007, 11:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
jkennedy293 6.0 Liter L76 V8 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Holly Springs, NC Drives: '03 Cavalier Posts: 2,371	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Does anyone know the cost of a kg of hydrogen?

11-09-2007, 11:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
lonestarnox 1.8 Liter ECOTEC Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Antonio TX Drives: 2007 Chevy Equinox 2LT Posts: 50	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks Many of the comments posted to the USA Today article alluded to the flammibility of hydrogen. Is this a concern on fuel cell vehicles? Has this Equinox been crash tested in the same manner as a gasoline fueled vehicle? __________________ 2007 Chevrolet Equinox LT 1974 Olds Cutlass Supreme coupe 1978 Olds Delta 88 403 (project car)

11-09-2007, 12:27 PM	#13 (permalink)
pinyon 2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Utah Drives: 2007 Aura XR Posts: 440	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks If the infrastructure for refueling is in place it would be nice to see a limited release of a fuel cell volt soon after the ice version. I should go research but in the interest of laziness does a fuel cell ecoflex use the same idea of just charging the battery or would the fuel cell drive the wheels and the center battery area be used for hydrogen storage? __________________ 2009 Avalanche LTZ 2007 Aura XR One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man. - Elbert Hubbard

11-09-2007, 12:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
megeebee 6.2 Liter LS9 Supercharged V8 Join Date: Feb 2005 Drives: 2005 Cadillac STS 3.6L Posts: 5,294	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks " Hoo- effing- ray!' __________________ *Protect The Sanctity Of Marraige Once And For All.......Ban Divorce!*

11-09-2007, 12:30 PM	#15 (permalink)
Dgrocho 2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 117	Re: Get the cost down, and fuel-cell Equinox rocks I've seen videos of both gasoline and hydrogen vehicles in crashes that "target" the fuel tank, and I'll be the first to say that I'd rather have hydrogen in that tank. That 150 mile capacity will hold back most buyers, hopefully others are right and the next gen fuel cell will double the capacity. This is very disconcerting for me though, this technology leap-frogs the Volt's technology. I love the Volt, but if this is to be marketed in 2011, the Volt will only last as long as it takes to build a hydrogen infrastructure, and GM could definately support such an infrastructure at their dealerships alone (and reinforce the "stealership" concept). It's unfortunate really... __________________ Nationalism is dead in the Western world...but in the east, it is strong, and look who is thriving, and enveloping the west....

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