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CAMARO Sales: Are the current numbers influenced by the design or the economy?

20K views 269 replies 58 participants last post by  Dr. Show-Me2 
#1 ·
Automotive News
August 22, 2016


Photo: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro. Image Credit: General Motors Corporation

Article Quotes:

After hitting a five-year peak in 2015, combined sales of the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet Camaro and Dodge Challenger have declined 8.4 percent this year.

So is it time to worry about America's fabled muscle-car troika?

Possibly not, because the decline this year nearly matches the 8.5 percent drop in overall car sales as crossovers and SUVs keep rolling up gains. Yet the cool-down of America's muscle-car mania could have deeper meaning.

Customers who buy Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers do so because they want modern evocations of 1960s performance icons, not because they need them, says Karl Brauer, senior director of insights for Kelley Blue Book. And that could be a problem.

"You have the canaries in the coal mine -- cars that are more discretionary rather than functional purchases, and cars that you see starting to decline first" when the market starts to plateau or dip, he says. "We're seeing that in two areas -- luxury brands are struggling more, and so are these performance cars."

In 2015, muscle-car sales shot up 22.6 percent for the first seven months. In 2014 and 2015, the three cars handily outperformed the overall car market.

But sales of all three cars have dropped this year: Mustang down 5.5 percent to 72,530; Camaro down 15.4 percent to 42,354 and Challenger down 5.5 percent to 39,998.
2017 Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet spokesman Jim Cain attributes the Camaro's steeper drop to the fact that last year, Chevrolet was headed into a model change-over. "A year ago we were running out the old model," he said. "We had higher inventories and higher fleet sales."

Cain points to higher Camaro transaction prices -- up $3,584 over last year according to Kelley Blue Book -- as evidence the "car is doing really well."

And the story of a slow decline may not be so simple. Tom Libby, analyst for IHS Markit, says the muscle-car segment still shows signs of strength.

Loyalty within the segment has increased over the past five years. Of those customers who owned a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger and returned to trade it in for a new car this year, 23.8 percent stayed within the segment, up from 17.1 percent in 2012, according to IHS data.

"There's a market out there that's attracted to the whole muscle-car concept and that market is stable," says Libby. "There's a segment of the buying population that likes the attributes of those cars. They like the image, the styling, the sound, the transmissions."

"Whatever their sales are right now, it's not being driven by lack of product capability or effort. If we're seeing a plateau or decline, it's because this is what the market can bear in terms of product quality."

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#2 ·
In my opinion, the Camaro is limited in the current marketplace by the size and useability of the interior (have you seen the trunk?). While (of course) it is not meant to be a family car, why not offer some future sales insurance in the form of a spin-off or two?

I hear a "rumor" that the current Chevy SS is being phased out of production in the next year or so...what would it take to add two more doors to the Camaro, with completely new sheet metal for an American made SS, and while we are at it, perhaps a four door Buick GNX?

Yes, Cadillac sort of has this market covered, but at what price point, and how are sales of Cadillac sport sedans at $60k plus?

As a bonus, GM could probably lower the price of the SS by at least $10,000 with a more efficient and local production source, and also possibly offer a domestic 9C1 PPV.

These suggestions would also offer protection to the next generation Camaro helping to ensure a position in the future Chevy vehicle roster.

------------------------

In the meantime, it's a good time to shop for a new Camaro...

Example:


2016 Camaro SS
MSRP Standard Vehicle Price $48,300.00
White Pearl Center Stripe $470.00
Magnetic Selective Ride Control $1,695.00
Radio With Infotainment and Connectivity and Navigation $495.00
Transmission, Automatic w/ Overdrive $1,495.00
Performance Exhaust System $895.00
LPO: Front and Rear Bowtie, Black $145.00
LPO: SS Center Cap, Black $150.00
LPO: Accessory Floor Mats- Premium $150.00
Wheel, 20" Aluminum, 5 Spoke, Low Gloss Black $200.00
Destination Freight Charge $995.00
Total MSRP $54,990.00
10% of MSRP Cash Back - $5,499.00
Price (After all offers) $49,491.00*






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#4 ·
In my opinion, the Camaro is limited in the current marketplace by the size and useability of the interior (have you seen the trunk?). While (of course) it is not meant to be a family car, why not offer some future sales insurance in the form of a spin-off or two?

I hear a "rumor" that the current Chevy SS is being phased out of production in the next year or so...what would it take to add two more doors to the Camaro, with completely new sheet metal for an American made SS, and while we are at it, perhaps a four door Buick GNX?

Yes, Cadillac sort of has this market covered, but at what price point, and how are sales of Cadillac sport sedans at $60k plus?

As a bonus, GM could probably lower the price of the SS by at least $10,000 with a more efficient and local production source, while offering protection to the Camaro position in the future Chevy vehicle roster.





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Overall, great thoughts Perian.

The details are where things get tough. First, a new alpha SS would cost about the same as the Zeta model. It's packed to the gills in equipment. If you load up a Camaro 2SS you'll be at the same point. Offering a 4 door with the 3.6 and cloth seats? Maybe. It would need some fresh style for sure. Not an evolution of today's SS, but rather, a Panamerization of the Camaro.

Grand National... loved them since I was a kid... looking for one when I have time. I'd suggest it needs to be a 2 door. I'd further point to the Avista debacle as proof that Buick won't be allowed to do this, they had their pants pulled down on them so they can't run. Sad.
 
#3 ·
Lower sales are the result of several smaller issues, it can't be attributed to one thing. For some it is the price, others it is the design. Some don't even know it is an all new generation since it looks so similar 5th. That isn't something the Camaro has ever had to deal as generation changes have been dramatic styling changes in the past. For others it is daily livability.

Death by a thousand cuts.
 
#63 · (Edited)
While there are various factors - there's is increasing evidence that the basis is the curse of the Alpha platform.

The fact that the new Camaro has pretty much a useless rear (which would make it more of an FR-S competitor than a pony car and FR-S sales have been slumping) and a higher price is reflective of being based on the Alpha platform.

Sure the design is evolutionary (the even more claustrophobic gun-slit windows don't help), but so is the design for the Mustang (except the evolution of the Mustang has made it look more modern, and not cartoonish like a Michael Bay film as seen in the Camaro).

The Challenger is on its 9th year and people don't seem to be tiring of its design.

In fact, the long in the tooth Challenger is on pace to have its best sales year - on track to sell nearly 70k.

Increased performance and handling is great and all, but like for the ATS and CTS - that's not what the majority of buyers are looking for; the Challenger is the still the same big, heavy boat, but it does what a pony car is supposed to do - look good, go fast (R/T and above) and carry passengers in relative comfort in the rear (unlike most sports coupes).
 
#5 · (Edited)
Possibly not, because the decline this year nearly matches the 8.5 percent drop in overall car sales as crossovers and SUVs keep rolling up gains. Yet the cool-down of America's muscle-car mania could have deeper meaning.
But sales of all three cars have dropped this year: Mustang down 5.5 percent to 72,530; Camaro down 15.4 percent to 42,354 and Challenger down 5.5 percent to 39,998.
2017 Chevrolet Camaro
Isn't that "Pony Cars are Bucking the Trend but for the Camaro?"

Who writes this stuff GM? Or they at the least have GM Tinted Glasses on.

I was taught Many Many, years ago when getting into the Business. "Once value (perceived or otherwise) exceeds price paid, the Sale is Done." The Camaro is missing either on Value or Price.
 
#7 · (Edited)
But sales of all three cars have dropped this year: Mustang down 5.5 percent to 72,530; Camaro down 15.4 percent to 42,354 and Challenger down 5.5 percent to 39,998.
2017 Chevrolet Camaro
Isn't that "Pony Cars are Bucking the Trend but for the Camaro?"

Who writes this stuff GM? Or they at the least have GM Tinted Glasses on.

I was taught Many Many, years ago when getting into the Business. "Once value (perceived or otherwise) exceeds price paid, the Sale is Done." The Camaro is missing either on Value or Price.
Noticed that too.

That is the fun you can have with statistics. Make Camaro's lack of sales look less bad by averaging the decline with that of the Mustang and Challenger. Ignore that fact that Mustang and Challenger have slowed less than the rest of the industry average.
 
#6 ·
Is ATP just something for GM executives to hide behind? Yeah, higher ATP is great. But when volume of Camaros (and Cadillacs) is dropping off a cliff, it doesn't really matter. $3500 per car more sounds great. Doesn't make up for 15% fewer sales.
 
#33 ·
Sure seems like it.............

Regarding the ATP, is the +$3,500 really that meaningful? Isn't most of that accounted for by lower rental sales and a higher mix of V8's, both things GM is on the record saying.

Another thing the author overlooks; last year Mustang was UP 48%, where the Camaro was DOWN 10%, so Mustangs YOY, is a much higher hurdle than that of GM's, yet Camaro is the one that is off the most.




No, they didn't.

MT did an article that the Camaro SS at 44k (IIRC, loaded 2ss) Outperformed the M4 which cost almost 2x as much. It did it while having more options too, the M4 had cloth seats.

There is not 1 car that will match or beat the Camaro's performance at its price point. The closest thing is the 20k more C7.

It is 3k more than a Mustang. But the Camaro far outperforms a GT PP, it really isn't even close.
From this point forward, I'm going to call this the "Nürburgring Trap"........... "who cares?" 5-10% at best.


Nobody else is playing in the Challengers sandbox. Everyone is competing in Camaro's, not just the Mustang. 370z, G37, that Hyundai thing, etc etc.

Dodge took the Apple route. They couldn't compete with PC/Microsoft so they did something different and its working.
The Challenger is completely different, it is a car added into a segment as an "add-on" The LX's bread & butter is the 300 and Charger, the Camaro is the exact opposite.


It will be interesting to see if Chevrolet does anything in the second half of the year
or just lets Camaro settle at these new lower levels. The current goals should be to
move as many of the superseded 2016s as possible without applying massive incentives.
But how do you do that? and in a few months, you won't be able to lease a 2016 Camaro, so the sales challenge only gets steeper.


As I've noted before, its not that cut and dry.

5th gen Camaro was battling a 6 year old Mustang when it first came it. If it didn't outsell it, that would be a very large fail. Now, we've got a brand new Mustang vs a brand new Camaro.

It's the way it's been in the past. Mustang has an immensely loyal and huge following. It's really hard to beat that and GM would love to have half of that. For every Charlie out there five Mustang fans match his enthusiasm.
That's illogical reasoning, if Mustang has said "immensely loyal and huge following" why were they buying Camaro's before, but not now?

3 years ago, both were selling +/- 80K/year. This year Mustang is tracking to exceed 124,000, yet Camaro will be lucky to hit 72,000.

With the number of Camaro's GM has sold in the last 7 1/2 years couldn't, one argue Camaro has a "immensely loyal and huge following" where did they go? And if not, then at the least a significant customer base from which repeat business can be derived from.
 
#11 ·
I think it's always been true that a fully loaded Camaro would be in that price territory. Not everyone wants a BMW. I'd take the Camaro SS over a 4 Series any day.

They may have overpriced the Camaro somewhat (not much). But just saying "It's a Chevy" doesn't determine price. The car and its content determine the price. They can't sell them at a loss because, "It's a Chevy." Compare a 4 Series and a Camaro SS if you must. To my eyes it isn't the Chevy that's overpriced.
 
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#9 ·
When they made the RS package standard on the 1SS I knew it would be a difficult to swallow price wise. Then, throw in ALL the content on the 2SS and it makes it an even more expensive.

As far as someone who actual has one...daily livability is pretty good. I can stop at Sams, get 4 cases of the 40 packs of water and put them in the trunk easy enough. Cant throw them in there like the Flex but they fit.

A lot of the problem is the price. I got a pretty great deal on mine IMHO with regards to the MSRP but others are easily undercutting the price and Camaro is still doing "ok" on its own. GM can afford to eat some of that ATP and move some of the cars but they just don't want to.
 
#10 ·
I think it's a combination of factors.

1. Steep price increase.
2. Design is too close to previous generation.
3. Consumers are looking for cars with more "utility".

The Camaro needs a major MCE ASAP:

Total restyle of the car. Maybe even a hatch for greater versatility. The Camaro needs to have stellar looks to justify the price. And Chevrolet really missed the mark on this one.
 
#13 ·
I probably would have bought a Camaro this summer but the new design and high price killed the deal.

I almost cried the first time I sat in the new Camaro - I hated the sight lines from all angles, almost a claustrophobic moment. I don't doubt it's a great car but sitting in the Mustang is a much more palatable experience. At this point I would go Mustang but I'm also thinking of getting classic car instead.
 
#15 ·
You would have bought a Camaro, except that you apparently like nothing about it.
 
#34 ·
It all comes down to sticker shock......
Sorry but no.

From this point forward, I'm going to call this the "Nürburgring Trap"........... "who cares?" 5-10% at best.


The Challenger is completely different, it is a car added into a segment as an "add-on"
Exactly!
The Challenger has more track potential than probably 95% of its owners will ever use!
If I HAD to buy a car, in this class, tomorrow, for a daily driver it'd most likely be a Challenger. Providing it didn't have a hideous test drive, which I doubt.

This conversation should be interesting in another 2 years.
How many people said just wait, ATS/Regal sales will improve---it's only temporary and not a trend?
 
#18 ·
To the point of the article, I don't know that these 3 are good examples of the "canary in the coal mine", luxury cars are probably a better indicator.

Each of the 3 has a reason for the sales decline.

The Challenger is just plain long in the tooth at this point, beyond the low volume Hellcat.

The Mustang is in year 2 of a complete redesign, much like a blockbuster movie in week 2 of ticket sales, there's going to be a leveling off.

The Camaro OTOH is a bit more disturbing since it's a completely new model and the clear cut performance leader of the 3. One has to believe the ATP is certainly an issue.
 
#20 ·
The Challenger is just plain long in the tooth at this point, beyond the low volume Hellcat.
Yet it has continued a slow, steady sales increase over its' life and has outsold the brand new, uber performing Camaro the last two months.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Sigh, everytime GM uses too small a wheelbase on a vehicle it languishes in sales. Admittedly that is not the Camaro's only problem. While being a superbly engineered car with undoubtedly top of the class performance, its cost and too familiar design makes it a hard sell out there. As soon as I saw the derived from 4th gen design I was a bit miffed as I am very aware of GM's prodigious and formidable design team. It didnt help that the new Mustang is a attractive design with good performance and more practical.

That said, I want a 2017 Camaro SS with 1LE package.
 
#23 ·
It will be interesting to see if Chevrolet does anything in the second half of the year
or just lets Camaro settle at these new lower levels. The current goals should be to
move as many of the superseded 2016s as possible without applying massive incentives.
 
#25 ·
IMHO the Camaro is an IMAGE car
and that IMAGE includes a V8 and the PRICE of the V8 is to HIGH IMHO MOST people are NOT buying this type of car for TRACK #s OR 1/4 mile ET's so the FACT it is the BEST does LITTLE to offset the 7K price increase over the 'STANG

I BELIEVE the 5.3L truck V8 replacing the V6 as the SS AND styling that was not MCE grade
I would have liked to see the MUSCLE CAR / FASTBACK look over the NOTCHBACK used and LESS an exact model copy and MORE "themed" after the Camaro/Muscle GM line up like the FORD/MOPAR are cribbing "features" but are NOT an exact model
 
#28 ·
As I've noted before, its not that cut and dry.

5th gen Camaro was battling a 6 year old Mustang when it first came it. If it didn't outsell it, that would be a very large fail. Now, we've got a brand new Mustang vs a brand new Camaro.

It's the way it's been in the past. Mustang has an immensely loyal and huge following. It's really hard to beat that and GM would love to have half of that. For every Charlie out there five Mustang fans match his enthusiasm.
 
#36 ·
We're going to have a Camaro 2SS (I believe) Automatic in the garage next week. I'm eager to see what living with her will be like downtown Toronto. Also have a 1000km road trip planned for the long weekend. I wanted a six-shooter but GM Canada inexplicably doesn't have one in the media fleet...

Like bballer says, living with it doesn't seem terrible if you come into it expecting certain things, like sightline, rear seat etc.

I really can't wait to road trip the thing, I genuinely feel it will be an extremely comfortable cruiser.
 
#37 ·
Also of note, Chevy claims the reduction in Camaro volume was planned all along in favor of increasing ATPs. Good, great and wonderful if it was actually true.

If GM was expecting demand to be lower as they chase ATP, then WHY are they cranking out so many cars?

Chevy is building Camaros at the same clip Ford is building Mustangs--but we all know Ford is doing that nasty fleet thing--so why GM, if you're telling us you reduced fleet volumes and expect to sell fewer cars than Ford, are you still producing as many cars as Ford?
 
#39 ·
Also of note, Chevy claims the reduction in Camaro volume was planned all along in favor of increasing ATPs. Good, great and wonderful if it was actually true.

If GM was expecting demand to be lower as they chase ATP, then WHY are they cranking out so many cars?

Chevy is building Camaros at the same clip Ford is building Mustangs--but we all know Ford is doing that nasty fleet thing--so why GM, if you're telling us you reduced fleet volumes and expect to sell fewer cars than Ford, are you still producing as many cars as Ford?
And that is the $60K question.
 
#54 ·
As someone who is in the market in next 12 months, Camaro is #3 on our list because of price, looks, visibility. yes price matters. A couple grand more I can swallow if I really want it. Once you get to 3, 4, 5 or more grand then I have to stop and think. the looks well, Mustang looks more sophisticated challenger more old school, Camaro like a GMC truck meets a cartoon car. finally the visibility is just a problem. I think Mustang is the best compromise between challenger and Camaro thus it number 1 position. Camaro being the best car on paper does not help. What tiny percentage of these cars ever see the track on regular basis?

So. Price must be same or less as comparable stang (V8 in my case). Probably less unless the sheet metal is changed and the green house.

Hatch back for gen 7 sounds like great idea. Also if the AWD version of Challenger is real and affordable it could be a great differentiator.

These cars are not practical but cost as much as a Jeep or Ford Edge so there has to be some changes like hatch / awd to keep up with the CUV craze. I drive it as a four season car most buyers at least three. The base model up the entry level V8s are almost never bought as weekend toys because who has $40K for that? Not many.

Just my two cents.
 
#55 ·
http://www.gminsidenews.com/article...total-66000-units-in-2016-lowest-in-20-years/

Chevy is adamant they are enjoying ridiculous levels of scale by bundling Camaro with the Caddys.

Seemingly Chevrolet NEEDS to produce Camaros at the current clip in order to enjoy the benefits of scale, what would happen to pricing with say 1,000 fewer cars per month?

It's also said Chevy has baked in enough margin to support heavy incentive spending, but then were back to square 1 in terms of ATP.

So my question is, how long can Chevy continue to enjoy the benefits of scale if the sales simply aren’t there?
 
#56 ·
By December, if GM has a 130-150 day inventory of '16 and '17 Camaros, they won't be able to hide behind the "we did it on purpose for the $3K higher ATP" story anymore. Heavy incentive will certainly come, perhaps even a production slowdown.
 
#64 ·
Sharing Alpha with two Caddys can certainly help with economies of scale...but don't forget that the Camaro is 70% unique from the other Alpha cars.

Although, wasn't it Cadillac's David Leone that stated "Alpha is premium, not expensive."

So now we have a Camaro that is being produced at a high level to achieve economies of scale, pricing set to allow heavy incentives and inventory stacking up on lots because perceived value isn't meeting price.

Wouldn't it have been easier to price it closer to your competition to begin with? Didn't anyone at GM question the strategy?
 
#65 ·
My "seat of the pants assessment" is this:

Reasons for not purchasing a 6th gen Camaro:

15% - Price too high (either "base price too rich for my blood," or "The competition was cheaper")

40% - "There's a new Camaro? Looks the same to me."

30% - Inconvenience of package (hard to see out of, unusable back seat, tiny trunk)

15% - I'm not interested in another retro take on the 1st gen Camaro. Give me something that looks new and sexy, like the Corvette.

I count myself in the last category (last 2 really), and still would like to see a bit more weight loss, especially without functional rear seats. A car like this needs to appeal to people's emotions. The same look that was a drastic change and statement for the 5th gen, it just blends in anonymously today. GM built a car for existing owners, and that is a market with very little demand.
 
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