ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

  1. Welcome to GM Inside News Forum – General discussion forum for GM

    Welcome to GM Inside News Forum - a website dedicated to all things GM.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join GM Inside News Forum today!
     
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 56

Thread: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

  1. #1
    GMI Canada Editor Premium Member ne_one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    St. Catharines, Ontario
    Posts
    9,570
    Thanks
    158
    Thanked 76 Times in 47 Posts

    ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough
    Automotive News
    November 6, 2012
    by Douglas A. Bolduc

    The nine-speed transmission might be where the race to add gears ends, ZF Friedrichshafen CEO Stefan Sommer said.

    He referred to nine speeds as the "natural limit" because going beyond that number adds weight and complexity that cannot be offset by gains in fuel efficiency.

    "There is no hard line, but you have to consider the law of diminishing returns. The question is whether adding even more gears makes sense," he told the Automobilwoche Congress here today. Automobilwoche is Automotive News Europe's German sister publication.

    Not long after ZF introduced its eight- and nine-speed transmissions, a press report said that Hyundai Motor Group was developing a 10-speed gearbox. Last month, a separate report said that General Motors and Ford are jointly designing nine- and 10-speed automatic transmissions for broad use across their vehicle lineups in a bid to boost fuel economy.

    Earlier this year, Julio Caspari, president of ZF's North American operations, hinted that a "Can-you-top-this?" race to add gears may be driven by marketing considerations rather than fuel economy.

    That's because there is only an 11 percent gap between the most-efficient transmissions today and a theoretically perfect gearbox, he told Automotive News Europe sister publication Automotive News.

    Full article at link.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    4.6 Liter Northstar V8 roy219's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    1,865
    Thanks
    919
    Thanked 384 Times in 251 Posts
    My Ride
    CTA trains and buses

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    If "there is no hard line" according the ZF CEO, why not 10 forward ratios, like my Trek bicycle?
    My modes of transportation: CTA 'L' & buses, Metra, Pace bus, rental cars (usually GM), taxicabs, bicycling, and walking.
    Member of the "I will never purchase a new car" club.
    Get the facts about ethanol and biofuels in the USA!

  4. #3
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) megeebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    12,568
    Thanks
    898
    Thanked 615 Times in 342 Posts

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    ZF is, I believe, an extention of the original Zeppelin Company, and the Zeppelin Metalworks, that built airships in the early 20th Century.
    Last edited by megeebee; 11-06-2012 at 11:47 AM.

  5. #4
    News Contributor BlackGTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,912
    Thanks
    416
    Thanked 930 Times in 454 Posts
    My Ride
    2013 Cadillac ATS - Black

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    I think one gear for each mph. So if your car can go 100mph, there should be 100 gears. It will take a hour to accelerate to 60 to hit each gear.

  6. #5
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) AMERICA 123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    12,533
    Thanks
    1,672
    Thanked 364 Times in 221 Posts
    My Ride
    The Toyota Rat Catcher

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    In these types of apps...... ie where the 8 /9HP apply, perhaps the next frontier isn't about more gear count...... but rather..... everything else including some 'new' things and configurations.



    Unless.......... you want to start downsizing so you can start 'loading' PV engines like Class Eights..........
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 11-06-2012 at 11:59 AM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

  7. #6
    CJH
    CJH is online now
    5.3 Liter Vortec V8 CJH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Minnesotax
    Posts
    1,329
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 108 Times in 75 Posts
    My Ride
    Audi A6 4.2, Durango LTD 5.7L

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    I would expect a more informed statement from the CEO, because it really depends on what you are trying to do, unless he was referring to a specific class of vehicle. A heavier vehicle like trucks/SUV's will benefit from more gears. EX: Semi trucks. There is always a cost/weight benefit you have to weigh, but who knows what will be developed, as there is still room for improvement in current transmissions.
    Past Rides:
    Audi S4 2.7TT
    Ford Explorer 5.0L
    Pontiac Grand AM 3.4L
    Chevy Corsica 3.0L

  8. #7
    Banned hunchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bridgeport
    Posts
    2,245
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    My Ride
    2012 F150 ecobeast 4x4

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    All vehicles need 13 speed trannies with dual dipsticks and performance floor mats. Don't stop at 9

  9. #8
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one)
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dearborn, MI
    Posts
    14,995
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    My Ride
    FORD

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Quote Originally Posted by AMERICA 123 View Post
    In these types of apps...... ie where the 8 /9HP apply, perhaps the next frontier isn't about more gear count...... but rather..... everything else including some 'new' things and configurations.



    Unless.......... you want to start downsizing so you can start 'loading' PV engines like Class Eights..........
    The briliiance of the ZF 8HP, and 9HP is often hidden within a discussion about total number of gears when there is so much more beneath the surface of these innovative transmissions.

  10. #9
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one)
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Dearborn, MI
    Posts
    14,995
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
    My Ride
    FORD

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Quote Originally Posted by CJH View Post
    I would expect a more informed statement from the CEO, because it really depends on what you are trying to do, unless he was referring to a specific class of vehicle. A heavier vehicle like trucks/SUV's will benefit from more gears. EX: Semi trucks. There is always a cost/weight benefit you have to weigh, but who knows what will be developed, as there is still room for improvement in current transmissions.
    He was specifically speaking about automotive transmissions, and the cost/ benefit ratio of rapidly increasing gear counts.

  11. #10
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Savannah
    Posts
    4,626
    Thanks
    128
    Thanked 214 Times in 166 Posts

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    I want 3 reverse gears!

  12. #11
    Firebird Concept (the turbine one) AMERICA 123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    12,533
    Thanks
    1,672
    Thanked 364 Times in 221 Posts
    My Ride
    The Toyota Rat Catcher

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    He was specifically speaking about automotive transmissions, and the cost/ benefit ratio of rapidly increasing gear counts.

    Also...... and I do mean directly .......... you'll end up or likely will end up trading this for that in terms of mpg so with virtually no net gain - or even worse + all the other you mention.

    Over simplified in a general sense but not in a specific sense for some - you'll actually end up trading city mpg for highway etc etc -


    And then...... if you follow.......... highway for highway and city for city.
    Last edited by AMERICA 123; 11-06-2012 at 12:38 PM.
    "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great Depression — and they're about to do it again."
    "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."
    "If America is circling the drain, Goldman Sachs has found a way to be that drain — " Matt Taibbi

  13. #12
    CJH
    CJH is online now
    5.3 Liter Vortec V8 CJH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Minnesotax
    Posts
    1,329
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 108 Times in 75 Posts
    My Ride
    Audi A6 4.2, Durango LTD 5.7L

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Quote Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
    He was specifically speaking about automotive transmissions, and the cost/ benefit ratio of rapidly increasing gear counts.
    I was referring to light car vs pickup/suv transmissions. I obviously didn't state my point very well. What I meant was that he might be correct for smaller cars, but trucks/SUV's could benefit from more, however how many more I do not know. And as stated, I understand the cost/weight/complexity question.
    Past Rides:
    Audi S4 2.7TT
    Ford Explorer 5.0L
    Pontiac Grand AM 3.4L
    Chevy Corsica 3.0L

  14. #13
    2.4 Liter SIDI ECOTEC kevinahcc20's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
    Posts
    201
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts
    My Ride
    2012 GMC Acadia

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Highway HD diesel trucks need more gears because the ratio between redline and idle speed is much lower than in a LD automotive engine, so the gear ratio steps also need to be proportionally smaller. This topic was about how many gear ratio steps does a LD automotive engine need to reach maximum efficiency. The ZF CEO is suggesting that past 9 forward speeds the additional incremental efficiency gains from adding another forward gear will be offset by mass and frictional loss gains that result from the added gear. His fundamental point is clearly rational although in a "specsmanship" race like this the endpoint may well overshoot the optimum, like cup holders in a minivan!

  15. #14
    b4z
    b4z is offline
    7.0 Liter LS7 V8
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    4,273
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 112 Times in 80 Posts
    My Ride
    2006 Pontiac GTO M6 QSM/ black

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    I agree 9 is enough.
    think about programming the transmission to kick down X amount of gears, seems like it would get confused.

    Added weight complexity, clutch packs---when does it end?

    And if the engine is low in tq. it is going to be hunting all over on hills.

  16. #15
    CJH
    CJH is online now
    5.3 Liter Vortec V8 CJH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Minnesotax
    Posts
    1,329
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 108 Times in 75 Posts
    My Ride
    Audi A6 4.2, Durango LTD 5.7L

    Re: ZF CEO thinks 9 speeds is enough

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinahcc20 View Post
    Highway HD diesel trucks need more gears because the ratio between redline and idle speed is much lower than in a LD automotive engine, so the gear ratio steps also need to be proportionally smaller. This topic was about how many gear ratio steps does a LD automotive engine need to reach maximum efficiency. The ZF CEO is suggesting that past 9 forward speeds the additional incremental efficiency gains from adding another forward gear will be offset by mass and frictional loss gains that result from the added gear. His fundamental point is clearly rational although in a "specsmanship" race like this the endpoint may well overshoot the optimum, like cup holders in a minivan!
    Except that you are discounting weight and aerodynamic drag. That's why often trucks pulling oversize/overweight trucks will be fitted with more gears vs a normal truck. Its not just about rev range.
    Past Rides:
    Audi S4 2.7TT
    Ford Explorer 5.0L
    Pontiac Grand AM 3.4L
    Chevy Corsica 3.0L

  17. Remove Advertisements
    GM Inside News
    Advertisements
     

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2