V8 Engine Is Far From Dead at GM

[nadepalma]

SOURCE: Inside Line

V8 Engine Is Far From Dead at GM
1-22-2008



DETROIT — Afficionados of the grand ol' American V8 moaned when news came last month that General Motors killed an ambitious program that was well on its way to developing a sophisticated, all-new DOHC V8 architecture. The so-called "Ultra" V8, or UV8 in GM parlance, was to replace the aging Northstar in a variety of GM premium cars, but was mainly earmarked for Cadillac.

Yeah, the UV8 program is shelved, Tom Stephens, GM's group vice president for global powertrain and quality, told Inside Line at the recent Detroit auto show — but he says don't be in a hurry to write any obituaries for the V8 at GM.

First, the ubiquitous small-block V8 architecture remains for any number of applications, including the Corvette, obviously, and Cadillac's high-power V-Series models. GM will go out of business — or be taken over by Greenpeace — before it ever kills its historic small-block V8 architecture.

Second, although in the decision to shelve the UV8, Stephens says, "I think we did the right thing for this moment in time," the UV8 development is "wrapped up with a bow," and the program could be revisited in the future, if market conditions warrant.

In fact, Stephens teased us by saying the UV8 is "as refined as anything in the history of internal-combustion engines. It was the quietest engine we've ever tested."

He also says that while it has been assumed the long-in-the-tooth Northstar V8 would be discontinued by around 2010-'11, "you'll have to wait and see," regarding the ultimate fate of the V8 that has been in production since being introduced in the '93 Allante roadster. The insinuation is clear: Keeping the old Northstar around longer than planned now may be an option for premium-car customers who still insist on seeing a V8 when they lift the hood.

MORE HERE

[nadepalma]

I'm glad, for one, that the Northstar may be around for a few years longer, even if it's not as widely used.

However, it also makes me wonder if we may see some kind of further "update/development" of the NorthStar even if they've put a "bow" on the Ultra V8.

This wouldn't be too far of a stretch considering GM's recent past. The 3800 V6 got a bit of an update a few years ago even has the new High Value/OHV engines were coming online.

The High Value engines (or the 3500 VVT at least) got a nice bump in HP and refinement not long ago, even as rumors leak that the V6/OHV family at GM may be in it's twilight as the newer, well received High Feature family is being used in almost everything at GM.

So perhaps there is a bit of life left in the ol'NorthStar for future applications.

I'd be interested if we'd see a bump in displacement or perhaps the addition on DI to further distance the V8 from the excellent HF 3.6 V6.

[Ach]

Is there any reason why the Northstar cannot be further improved with DI and other technology (maybe a milder, more volume-friendly supercharger setup than the current 4.4L)? Can it handle any larger displacement than 4.6L?

The Northstar was quite competitive up until the latest round of luxury V8 updates, but got left in the dust a bit with the 4.8L BMW, 5.5L MB and 4.6 L Lexus motors.

[emh]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

In fact, Stephens teased us by saying the UV8 is "as refined as anything in the history of internal-combustion engines. It was the quietest engine we've ever tested."

Who cares if it isn't being built?

He also says that while it has been assumed the long-in-the-tooth Northstar V8 would be discontinued by around 2010-'11, "you'll have to wait and see," regarding the ultimate fate of the V8 that has been in production since being introduced in the '93 Allante roadster. The insinuation is clear: Keeping the old Northstar around longer than planned now may be an option for premium-car customers who still insist on seeing a V8 when they lift the hood.

N* is already uncompetitive. Unless they plan on heavy upgrades or on using only the supercharged version, N* will be a joke in a year or two.

This is the worst of all worlds... if the naturally aspirated N* hangs around, that likely means no supercharged V6es -- why have a 320hp V8 if you have a 400hp V6?

[emh]

From the rest of the article:

But Stephens says GM already has observed a change in consumers' engine preferences: At the Cadillac division, 85 percent of buyers for the SRX crossover and STS luxury sedan are opting for the 3.6-liter DOHC V6 instead of the Northstar 4.6-liter V8.

That's cause the N* is outdated compared to the competition and GM's own V6. This is exactly why it shouldn't hang around any longer in its current form.

[asrapid]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

SOURCE: Inside Line





In fact, Stephens teased us by saying the UV8 is "as refined as anything in the history of internal-combustion engines. It was the quietest engine we've ever tested."

Isn't that nice..well, buyers will never have opportunity to find out if that is true.

Originally Posted by nadepalma

He also says that while it has been assumed the long-in-the-tooth Northstar V8 would be discontinued by around 2010-'11, "you'll have to wait and see," regarding the ultimate fate of the V8 that has been in production since being introduced in the '93 Allante roadster. The insinuation is clear: Keeping the old Northstar around longer than planned now may be an option for premium-car customers who still insist on seeing a V8 when they lift the hood.

MORE HERE

I hope they don't planing going against competition in 2011 with northstar. By then even GM v6 will probably have more HP than present Northstar. And competition will pack something over 400 hp with their V8 engines. Better to put TT V6 instead northstar v8 ..or even some version of LS engine. Or put northstar V8 supercharged (but not as a v model). But if i understand this engine is very expensive.

[stevecmh]

great news long live the Small Block

[asrapid]

Originally Posted by Ach

Is there any reason why the Northstar cannot be further improved with DI and other technology (maybe a milder, more volume-friendly supercharger setup than the current 4.4L)? Can it handle any larger displacement than 4.6L?

The Northstar was quite competitive up until the latest round of luxury V8 updates, but got left in the dust a bit with the 4.8L BMW, 5.5L MB and 4.6 L Lexus motors.

As i remember someone said it can go up to 5.3 l or something like that. Northstar with DI, turbocharger could probably develop over 400 hp in mild form. But i doubt GM will do something like that.

[AndrewGS]

Yeah, let's shelve the smoothest, quietest engine ever so we can continue to offer the out of date, underpowered Northstar for another 15 years. I mean, nobody seems to want a V8 now and why be on the cutting edge of engine refinement?

What GM needs to understand is that even if most luxury cars these days are bought with a V6, the V8 models are the flagship and carry the prestige that drips down to the lesser models. Cadillac needs an actual large luxury sedan that offers smooth, quiet V8 power more than anything else right now to carry the prestige of the brand, not a sub-$30K compact or small FWD crossover.

The SBC will never completely dissapear, but it is the workhorse of GM, built to last forever and/or develop great power, not to be the cutting-edge, refined masterpice showcased in your most luxurious models.

[MrMax]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

I'm glad, for one, that the Northstar may be around for a few years longer, even if it's not as widely used.

However, it also makes me wonder if we may see some kind of further "update/development" of the NorthStar even if they've put a "bow" on the Ultra V8.

This wouldn't be too far of a stretch considering GM's recent past. The 3800 V6 got a bit of an update a few years ago even has the new High Value/OHV engines were coming online.

The High Value engines (or the 3500 VVT at least) got a nice bump in HP and refinement not long ago, even as rumors leak that the V6/OHV family at GM may be in it's twilight as the newer, well received High Feature family is being used in almost everything at GM.

So perhaps there is a bit of life left in the ol'NorthStar for future applications.

I'd be interested if we'd see a bump in displacement or perhaps the addition on DI to further distance the V8 from the excellent HF 3.6 V6.

I for one am glad to hear this news, but as far as the updates to the Northstar are concerned, don't hold your breath for DI. The cost to modify the Northstar's architecture to handle it would be prohibitive. Of course, increasing displacement is another story altogether, and I'd hope that would be a quick and cheap modification.

[megeebee]

What seems to be lost in all this Northstar talk is the fact that there are 2 engines currently bearing that name. The FWD/ Transverse version has indeed been with us, more or less unchanged, since the fall of 1992.

The RWD longitudinal version is for all intents and purposes a completely different beast. It has been in available siince the fall of 2003. NOT so old.



I like to hope that the one Mr. Stephens was referring to is the RWD version. Especially since all upper case luxury sedans known to be under development at GM are on a RWD platform.

[New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66]

With that said, I think GM should stay on track and produce the Zeta Impala as planned since it was well on it's way through development. I am confident they have invested allot in Oshawa to get that plant ready for the Zetas. Why waste that money? Make some money from that investment. From all appearances it sounds like a stunning product, and just the stunning product we need to continue to take big chunks out of the already crumbling negative perception. We need more stunning products to chip away at that nagging negative perception. The Zeta Impala sounds like another product which will help to improve the perception.

I see the Zetas as a second car for most folks. maybe not a primary car, but a second car to have fun in. Even in these higher fuel prices, there is a market.

And the new CAFE don't go into affect until 2013. So still plenty of time to continue some existing products, with an eye for the future.

[skylark68]

Looks like the Ultra may go down in history as another missed opportunity for GM due to "market conditions." The 1973 fuel crisis put the final nail in the coffin for the Pontiac Ram Air V, the Buick 455 Stage 3, and the Oldsmobile 455 DOHC. Imagine...

[ponchoman49]

Great so the 275 HP and 291 HP outdated Northstar motors will end up just like the 3800 with far lower power numbers relative to displacement for another 4-5 years. They had better plan on using the VVT 320HP engine as the baseline for the next couple of years in cars like the DTS and Lucerne and come up with an HO version for the others with around 350-375 realistic HP if they want to even be remotely competitive. If GM can continue to develop the smallblock and extract more and more power out of it then the same should be true for the Northstar.

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by emh

From the rest of the article:

That's cause the N* is outdated compared to the competition and GM's own V6. This is exactly why it shouldn't hang around any longer in its current form.

I also think it ridiculous to site the 2 slowest selling models in the Cadillac stable to extrapolate a "trend".

If the new CTS was offered with a V8, the "take-rate" would be very high.