UAW local members strike at GM Lansing plant

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by bow

Ahh Uzzy, always so angry. So instead of staying in school to get a masters just go work for a union. Either way, you make more money. Seems there is a whole new sector the employers have found to exploit. Thanks for pointing that out.

There was no anger in that post.
Me -->
Angry -->
I'll take my chances with this Bachelor's and probably go for a Master's in Business in the coming years. You go ahead and just keep on doing the same thing, every day. Day in day out. Same thing, every day...

[psece]

Originally Posted by bow

In keeping with the spirited debate on this subject, I have to disagree with that statement. Unions are needed more today than most any time in their history. All you have to do is look at the anti-union posts in these threads to see why. Most of you that make the posts will not see it this way, but they are elitest views and views that helped fan the labor movement.

You simply advocate lower wages based on education and the type of work that is being done. Alot of you say that if you don't better yourself through education then you do not deserve to be anything more than on the roles of the working poor. So many people are getting educations today that a simple batchelors degree is loosing its luster and the employers are seeking people with masters and Phd's. A batchelors degree used to be a ticket to a better paying job, now it gets most people there very own cubicle on an open concept floor.

Unions will always fight the elitests views. They will fight upper managements arguments that they are paid too much while they get obscene wages at the expense of the union workers. People shout out about the global economy and market values of a job. If that is the case, then make these claims for across the board. Bring CEO's and white collar jobs salaries into the global economy and market value. Base them on what they make in Japan, India, Pakistan and other nations. After all, you are basing labors prices on those countries pay scales.

Economists and government officials are starting to see the need for a more organized labor force. They are looking at the long term effects that lower wages are going to have on the US economy and it is starting to wake them up. Once again the US is starting to take the lead in this area. Labor unions are once again growing, growing in the retail, service and white collar entry level. In a perfect world there would be no need for a union. But in the never ending drive for more profits, bigger bonuses and a greater divide between rich and poor, the union is needed. Unions are not out to destroy companies, everyone would lose if that were the case. A person on a good union wage is one less person that is considered the working poor and one less person that needs welfare assistance that comes out of my pocket.

So argue your case, a debate is a wonderful right of all Americans. Just try not to be so elitest about it, that is the one thing that surely raises the hackles of any hard working American.

I am in a union now. Did you know that I can't get a promotion without first testing for it? It doesn't matter how hard I work because your reward isn't based on merit, it is based on how well you tested(with open interpretations of the answers by a committee). So sometimes I see people who test well but don't know jack about the job at hand get a promotion. Other times I see someone who gives 120% everyday but test poorly and they get rated poorly. (I am lucky in that I work hard and I test well).

The union also makes it hard to get rid of any dead weight. We have people here that barely do a thing and they get a paycheck just like the person who worked a 60 hour week. Management doesn't even try to document these people because the Union fights so hard for them. It SUCKS.

I know this isn't how most unions operate but my experience is my experience. So I can say that I am biased against the union to a certain extent. They take my money to protect the person playing solitaire on their computer and not making their deadlines. They take my money to support some worthless candidate in politics. I deal with the negative side everyday.

Now the positives are that if I do my job and do an honest days work, I won't be fired. I know in this economic downturn, they may not hire anyone and I might be asked to do a little more work, I will still have a job. I know that politics will play a limited affect on my job. These are all huge!

I just want people to know that there are positives and negatives. Unions are not the perfect solution to the problem and the pendulum can swing too far in one direction (as it did with my union). I think that a private company that has a owner can care for their workers and have a great relationship. I think that is much harder in corporations and government where people are a resource and everything is a cookie cutter decision. You can still have that great relationship with a corporation but they are few and far between.

[bow]

There was no anger in that post.
Me -->
Angry -->

My apologies, I guess I read anger into it, you can never really tell a persons demeanor through reading a post.

I'll take my chances with this Bachelor's and probably go for a Master's in Business in the coming years.

I truly wish you luck with that and if you did it and I knew you personally I would be at your graduation giving you high fives and major props. It is an accomplishment to be proud of.

You go ahead and just keep on doing the same thing, every day. Day in day out. Same thing, every day...

Ok, you pigeon holed me here. I am a union man, but that does not mean my job is repetitious. I am in the elevator business. Rarely do I have a day where I do the same thing more than once. My job is interesting, dangerous, challenging and fun, I love it. Now my wages and benefits package actually dwarfs those of the UAW's, end I gots me a hi skewl edjumacation tew, if you want to debate my worth, I am game. I am behind my UAW brothers %100 and if they need me or my union we will do our best to be there for them. Its a brotherhood thing.

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by bow

My apologies, I guess I read anger into it, you can never really tell a persons demeanor through reading a post.

Ya, it's hard to get any kind of emotion or feeling out of simple posts. Few if any of us are real "writers." I know I'm not. I use smilies a lot tho for that very reason.

Originally Posted by bow

I truly wish you luck with that and if you did it and I knew you personally I would be at your graduation giving you high fives and major props. It is an accomplishment to be proud of.

Well thank you. I won't be attending, however. It's too much of a big spectacle and such. They fill the football feild with graduates and family and friends and blah blah blah. I don't need that, I've better things to do with my Saturdays in the beginning of May. I didn't go to my community college one either, there was only 2 or 3 guys out of my class of 15 that went. We started with over 190 students and 15 made it all the way through. We went out drinking instead.

And I think for this one, I'd rather just have some people over on the back patio to hang out than get bustled into a football field and deal with all of that.

Originally Posted by bow

Ok, you pigeon holed me here. I am a union man, but that does not mean my job is repetitious. I am in the elevator business. Rarely do I have a day where I do the same thing more than once. My job is interesting, dangerous, challenging and fun, I love it. Now my wages and benefits package actually dwarfs those of the UAW's, end I gots me a hi skewl edjumacation tew, if you want to debate my worth, I am game. I am behind my UAW brothers %100 and if they need me or my union we will do our best to be there for them. Its a brotherhood thing.

You're right, I did. I just assumed you were a UAW line worker. Your type of unionization, I do not have issue with believe it or not. Mostly for the reason stated "Now my wages and benefits package actually dwarfs those of the UAW's." They are simply overpaid and too much of what they get paid goes to their own bureaucracy. The UAW is at least as bad as the companies they "protect" their workers from IMO. At least as far as "fat cats" go. And when I'm 14 stories up I'm glad you guys are there...I've actually thought about that before. But it's not a safety issue here. Toyota's cars are just as safe, of not more (arguably, though not by me) as the union assembled ones from the Big 3, are they not? But I don't take that meaning I embrace only the low paid unions either. Underwater welders are unionized and get paid a ton..and they should! That job sucks and is dangerous and takes skill. That is not something I would even pretend to be able to do. That's just one example I can think of now. But the jobs that require a certain skill set, or specialized training, or a certian type of person even, should be compensated accordingly. The jobs that anybody with mostly functioning limbs and at least partially functioning neurons can do, should not be getting $30+/hr, unmatched benefits packages and everything else that comes along with handing out gloves at Hamtramck Assembly for example. (Not an actual case, I'm just saying)

I guess I come off as sounding totally anti-union in any form. But really, my issue is with the UAW and CAW more than anyhting else. Unions do spawn a strong brotherhood and a great commaradarie between it's workers, or at least it should. I really don't see that too much in the auto industry anymore it seems. Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it. The bond unions forge is important to morale and morale is extremely important to production. I don't think anybody would disagree with me there. But I just don't see the UAW helping it much. If anything they've gotten way too big help it. It should be more of a community and smaller scale thing. But it's not just for union memebrs. My company has all sorts of it's own activites it does, some with union backing, but salary employees join in. We put the union/salary rift aside and all have fun. Some are purely company functions, but the same thing applies. Sometimes we just go out on our own "not official company sanctioned events" and have fun too. The only thing the union (at least CAW local 195) does is have the rare union rally or march. I think there's been one or maybe 2 that I've known about in the 4 years I've been there. And it's not like they're secret and they happen without me knowing. I was even invited to one...I respectfully declined.

I won't force you to stop rooting on your brothers, but the only thing that you have in the union label. It wasn't like that a long time ago, but in my eyes, that's all it is now.

Originally Posted by bow

end I gots me a hi skewl edjumacation tew

c00l. Me toos. I iz edumacated, I haz pruf.

[bow]

That's a good post Uzzy. I can see now that you are not the anti-union zealot that some of your posts made you out to be and I understand alot of what you are saying. I am a strong union man. I raised a family, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood and I need nothing from anyone. I am a productive member of society and I have my union to thank for that.

Now let's go a step further. Let's research the facts about this strike. We leave the rhetoric out, whose overpaid, whose lazy, and so on, and just research what is really going on. Things to look for.

1. Why was the strike called?

2. What is the sticking point?

3. Who is holding things up?

Let's look at it from both sides with open minds and then compare notes. I will be honest with you, when I first read about the strike I probably reacted much like you did with disbelief and disgust. I just love a good debate where all the facts are laid out.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by bow

That's a good post Uzzy. I can see now that you are not the anti-union zealot that some of your posts made you out to be and I understand alot of what you are saying. I am a strong union man. I raised a family, live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood and I need nothing from anyone. I am a productive member of society and I have my union to thank for that.

Now let's go a step further. Let's research the facts about this strike. We leave the rhetoric out, whose overpaid, whose lazy, and so on, and just research what is really going on. Things to look for.

1. Why was the strike called?

2. What is the sticking point?

3. Who is holding things up?

Let's look at it from both sides with open minds and then compare notes. I will be honest with you, when I first read about the strike I probably reacted much like you did with disbelief and disgust. I just love a good debate where all the facts are laid out.

With regards to 1 & 2......my best guess would be because GM didn't hammer out a new local agreement with that specific plant......

As to to 3, it's anyone's guess. Probably GM....since they have to take the initiative with this....

[BPGTim]

anyone hear the latest on the strike??

[Cortana]

lol, you guys got this strike all long. If anything the UAW helped GM save money while their supplier was down. Let me distill the sequence of events down for you:

Late Summer 2007
The union holds strike authorization vote prior to national and local contract negotiations adn the membership votes yes. This is a standard tactic, no one wants to strike, but walking up to the bargaining table with a no-vote is like going to a gunfight without ammo.

Fall 2007-April 2008:
Local bargaining is ongoing.

Early April:
Union enters 5 before 5 letter, effectively giving management a 5 day ultimatum to settle.

2 days before deadline:
Carpet supplier Alliance Interiors goes on strike, crippling GM-LDT production. Alliance attempts to continue production utilizing management on the floor and non-union truck drivers, but runs into quality problems and can only run at 40-50% capacity. Meanwhile, GM-LDT is obligated to continue paying their workers for 8 hours despite only being able to build cars for 4 hours a day.


Strike deadline:
GM calls the UAW's bluff, seizes on the strike as a way to cut costs while Alliance management builds up their parts inventory and sends the union packing.


My contacts in the union have said that GM didn't seem to want to settle and were basically dragging their feet. With Alliance now settled, I suspect GM will settle within days and production will resume. They will need to refill their elpo/phosphate systems and replace their clearcoat in paint before they can begin running, so it may not be until sometime next week.

[Cortana]

Originally Posted by EldoFan

With regards to 1 & 2......my best guess would be because GM didn't hammer out a new local agreement with that specific plant......

As to to 3, it's anyone's guess. Probably GM....since they have to take the initiative with this....

We had been operating under what was called the Platinum Agreement, which was an extremely open-ended local agreement that was so vague it was routinely interpreted differently to suit each situation. However, ratifying it is probably what landed us the plant. Initially, the skilled trades shot it down, but after another local area union, the one that now builds the CTS and SRX, told the company that they'd be happy to pass it if it meant them getting the new plant, our union convinced the trades to vote yes. It passed and we got the plant.

Fast forward 8 years ahead and it was time for a definitive contract. Contrary to all the forum theorists here, there was no one galvanizing issue holding up the proceedings. It was not about core/non-core stuff. It was more about manpower replacement, skilled trades working production, grievances and other far more boring stuff. However, as I posted above, the Alliance strike came at a bad time and the company used it to their advantage. Do I blame them, no, because I would have done it that way too.

[03xtreme]

Originally Posted by Cortana

My contacts in the union have said that GM didn't seem to want to settle and were basically dragging their feet. With Alliance now settled, I suspect GM will settle within days and production will resume. They will need to refill their elpo/phosphate systems and replace their clearcoat in paint before they can begin running, so it may not be until sometime next week.

If it was a compilation of minor issues than the union really screwed up trying to bluff GM, they should know by now the GM has the upper hand, politically, and in outsourcing labor. Every union job could be replaced in a very short period of time, go ask Toyota and even worse, honda, they have waiting lists for the low hourly jobs.

Why would Lansing strike over trivial grievances and think GM would blink.

Here's corporate, like you say.... go ahead strike, see ya when you're broke.

[johnd59]

I'm a union member and I believe in collective bargaining but this is getting out of control. GM lost 30 billion the year before and 3 billion last year, give them a break. You are shooting yourself in the foot. Times are tough and your making it easier for Toyota and Honda! Wake up.

[lineworker]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm a union member and I believe in collective bargaining but this is getting out of control. GM lost 30 billion the year before and 3 billion last year, give them a break. You are shooting yourself in the foot. Times are tough and your making it easier for Toyota and Honda! Wake up.
GM lost 30 billion on paper only,it was a tax correction.They more than likely made a profit on that 30 billion.

[lineworker]

This post can now be closed!!!We are back to work and will be making great quality vehicles once again.