UAW head says that unions aren't to blame for Detroit's problems

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

Wake up! You don't seem to understand at all what is going on right now do you?

Toyota is beyond trying to stay profitable, they are trying to turn to profitability again. The economy went down much faster than they expected it would with their planned changes in August. I've said this back in July that the economy is what will bring down Toyota, evidently this is exactly what is going on right now. The only way Toyota can help this is to either leave the NA market or to find new ways to get around import and export rates. Toyota is in a very serious predicament here to which they barely have any control over and would require some serious changes or hoping that the economy swaps over. If GM or Ford were to declare bankruptcy, chances are Toyota will fall quickly as well.

Really! You honestly think that if GM declares chapter 11 it will be BAD for Toyota... Wow GM management must be mixing in barbiturates in the coolaid today.

Originally Posted by fp115

Hello! Ford does have cash problems. Both GM and Ford aren't expected to last till next year.

Wait a second.. you said these losses are all "paper" and had little to do with cash... you also have said that GM has lots of money to last until 2012... Now you say they can't make it to 2009... Which is it? Was GM management lying to you then or are they lying to you now?

You do know that all of your historic posts make up a record here...
And it is all starting to look like a lot of

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Really! You honestly think that if GM declares chapter 11 it will be BAD for Toyota... Wow GM management must be mixing in barbiturates in the coolaid today.

You have no idea of the markets or the economy do you?

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Wait a second.. you said these losses are all "paper" and had little to do with cash... you also have said that GM has lots of money to last until 2012... Now you say they can't make it to 2009... Which is it? Was GM management lying to you then or are they lying to you now?

You do know that all of your historic posts make up a record here...
And it is all starting to look like a lot of

I'd suggest you keep up your reading skills here bud.

[TorRed]

Originally Posted by zete

Although everyone has some level of blame in this, you can't blame the UAW for assembling the uninspired, bean-countered-to-death, sea of plastic cars of the past. They were told "Build this" and they did. The fault for the crappy cars GM is still living down is courtesy of a bunch of guys in white shirts in GM, not the guys wearing blue collars on the line. Sure, some of them didn't take care in building the cars but there was way more to the problems than someone not tightening down a bolt. It was a problem endemic to GM. Blaming the UAW is silly. The crap product of the late 70s, 80s and most of the 90s (and some of the stuff of the 2000s) is solely the fault of the "geniuses" who designed and cheaped out the cars.

Quality control is not solely a line problem but a problem relating to part durability, fit and finish, etc.

And as many know on this forum I'm no fan of unions, but in this regard they're not the sole problem. Sticking up for themselves and saying we're not to blame is the right attitude. There's plenty of blame to go around and a slew of senior folks -- present and retired -- at GM need to stand up and admit they designed crap, they put in crappy, cheaped out interiors, and figured they could get away with it. Well, they couldn't and didn't.

Ultimately, I take Harry S Truman's view on this: The Buck Stops Here. And that is with the senior management, designers, accountants, etc. in GM in the past 30 years. You get what you sow. Or, to put this another way, the line workers at GM couldn't manufacture silk purses from the sow's ears they were provided.

When I was in design school back in the '80s, one of my instructors was a retired GM Design boss. He used to tell us hair-curling stories about managment's approval of lack-luster designs or recounting cocktail parties thrown for the bigwigs and then their wives would approve or make color choices. Sounds far fetched but I have experienced just those things in my career. I'll never forget when the Baretta and Corsica came out and how us "car-guys" thought they were pretty cool (remember what was out at the time), and my instructor telling me that that same design came through his studio 12 years prior and was passed over for some reason. I remember him also saying that the interior looked like "a burned out tank".

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by fp115

You have no idea of the markets or the economy do you?

Unlike GM management... I predicted that we would be in serious trouble by mid 2009... When I posted that you said I knew nothing about the auto industry...

I also posted that the share price would be in the 4's by August... (I missed that by a couple of weeks)... You said profitability was around the corner. Tons of new product in the pipeline... Cool new Cadillacs, new engines, bla bla bla ... ALL of it

If you want the links to all of this I would be more then happy to do the searches and provide all of the links...

But instead, lets talk about markets, cars and the economy... There is a certain demand for cars in our economy... Demand for GM cars has been in decline since Rich took over the CEO job 10+ years ago and demand for Toyota cars has been increasing... All the talk of GM going broke is only make this worse... Now with the economy down turn the total demand for all cars is in decline.

When an economy is in trouble people tend to avoid risky investments for "safe" stuff... buying a car is somewhat of an investment... during a down turn most people are going to cling to manufactures that are making a profit (like Toyota) and flee manufactures who haven't made a profit in about 5 years (like GM).

If GM evaporates... The demand for cars will NOT evaporate... it will go elsewhere... "Elsewhere" IS Toyota or Honda or Nissan or Ford (probably in that order)

Look at what happened when Oldsmobile "evaporated" 100% of the customers went to Japanese makes... The elimination of Oldsmobile was "terrible" for Toyota too

Originally Posted by fp115

I'd suggest you keep up your reading skills here bud.

You have a very short memory don't you.
Or is it all of the GM "double speak" that has you confused...

[BGH]

Originally Posted by fp115

Ford has 7 months of cash remaining.
Go look up Toyota's revenue in the past months.
Look up GM's profit and how it was made in the 80 and 90s.
Look up GM's $22b structural changes and its timeline.

You have just proven that you know NOTHING about the industry and pray that you never get past the janitorial closet.

That's not true. Ford has enough cash to make it for a few years. I have no idea where u are getting your information, but stop using that source.

GM's profits in the 80 and 90s? Those are irrelevent. Look at 2005 to now, GM's car operations have not made money and the company was floated by the finance arm. 2005 was an arbitrary date, i'm sure that's been the situation since 2001.

And no matter what you say, Toyota is expected to make a profit this year, its just that simple. Toyota actually made money in the first half of this year so I have no idea why you would bring up revenues. When we already know Toyota has been making money so far and is expected to finish the year with an extra 5.6 billion in the account.

Tell me how much is GM is expected to lose? LOL, every time GM management opens their mouths they prove they don't deserve the bailout money. They just don't get it.

Toyota has been increasing its profits for the past 18 years, what's GM record for that time?

Well we know its record of the past 18 years has culminated into it asking the feds to bail them out because they might not have enough money past december.

But yeah, your right GM's management are great and its just the economy.

Wake up man.

Operating profits for Toyota for 2007 was 18 billion.
GM automotive operations for 2007: 1.6 billion loss.

GM's management is great huh.

Just put the cool aid down already.

[zete]

Originally Posted by fp115

Its possible, but I have been seeing its global numbers lately. Last time I saw it was in September when its revenue was way down, but not to a point of losses.

Toyota NA lost $353M for the most recent half. So mighty Toyota is not invincible in North America.

Toyota North America Posts Huge Six Month Loss

So, Toyota loses money WITHOUT having all those legacy costs GM has. What was that again about Toyota being so well run?

[zete]

Originally Posted by BGH

Clearly you have no idea what your talking about.

Ford will have cash to last until 2010, GM will have problems making it to the summer time unless uncle sam gets involved.

And Toyota isn't losing money, that's just a flat out lie. They're expected to make over 5 billion this fiscal year while GM will probably lose 10 billion or more. During boom times GM was only making money of its finance arm while its automotive operations never turned a profit. And you want to make the argument GM management is in someway competant? Ford made sure it would have cash reserves months ago before credit markets froze. Ford has been selling of brands and simplifying its process. GM has done nothing.

Toyota's losing money in North America. Go take a look for yourself. This is bad, really bad at the moment. And Toyota, who have nearly no legacy costs, are losing cash in North America.

When you compare Toyota and GM in North America you quickly realize that without the legacy costs GM may have broken even this past half, or posted a small profit. Toyota, on the other hand, actually LOST money with next to no legacy costs. If Toyota had GM's legacy costs they'd be losing the same amount of cash. Goes to show you what running an automaker is like.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by BGH

That's not true. Ford has enough cash to make it for a few years. I have no idea where u are getting your information, but stop using that source.

GM's profits in the 80 and 90s? Those are irrelevent. Look at 2005 to now, GM's car operations have not made money and the company was floated by the finance arm. 2005 was an arbitrary date, i'm sure that's been the situation since 2001.

And no matter what you say, Toyota is expected to make a profit this year, its just that simple. Toyota actually made money in the first half of this year so I have no idea why you would bring up revenues. When we already know Toyota has been making money so far and is expected to finish the year with an extra 5.6 billion in the account.

Tell me how much is GM is expected to lose? LOL, every time GM management opens their mouths they prove they don't deserve the bailout money. They just don't get it.

Toyota has been increasing its profits for the past 18 years, what's GM record for that time?

Well we know its record of the past 18 years has culminated into it asking the feds to bail them out because they might not have enough money past december.

But yeah, your right GM's management are great and its just the economy.

Wake up man.

Operating profits for Toyota for 2007 was 18 billion.
GM automotive operations for 2007: 1.6 billion loss.

GM's management is great huh.

Just put the cool aid down already.

Ford enough cash for years? Try and have a look at their balance sheet or is that asking too much?

GM makes profit on cars. Has and always will have. Cars simply don't make as much as their trucks.

This year Toyota is intended to have its lowest profits since 1999. Last month it lost money in North America and Europe.

Ah gotta love all the GMiers who think they actually know what they are talking about.

Unlike you here are some articles:

7 months for Ford:
http://www.freep.com/article/2008110...0/0/BUSINESS07
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...aspx?AR=235929

Toyota profits:
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/11/...-a-decade.html
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...n_id=rss_daily
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toy...op-40-percent/

[fp115]

Originally Posted by zete

Toyota NA lost $353M for the most recent half. So mighty Toyota is not invincible in North America.

Toyota North America Posts Huge Six Month Loss

So, Toyota loses money WITHOUT having all those legacy costs GM has. What was that again about Toyota being so well run?

Thanks for that. Its really a pity to see what the Yen and USD together are doing to Toyota. However it is somewhat baffling to see how such a thing can happen when they have no legacy costs comparable to that of the big 3.

[BGH]

Originally Posted by fp115

Ford enough cash for years? Try and have a look at their balance sheet or is that asking too much?

GM makes profit on cars. Has and always will have. Cars simply don't make as much as their trucks.

This year Toyota is intended to have its lowest profits since 1999. Last month it lost money in North America and Europe.

Ah gotta love all the GMiers who think they actually know what they are talking about.

Unlike you here are some articles:

7 months for Ford:
http://www.freep.com/article/2008110...0/0/BUSINESS07
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...aspx?AR=235929

Toyota profits:
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/11/...-a-decade.html
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...n_id=rss_daily
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toy...op-40-percent/

Did you even read your own links?

And even though Ford outlined a series of actions to provide $14 billion to $17 billion in cash through 2010, such as reducing costs and further culling its workforce, Patrick Archambault of Goldman, Sachs & Co., still said Ford’s “cash burn is troubling.

And Toyota may have lost money in North America, but its overall operations operations remain profitable and according to your own links are expected to remain profitable.

"Toyota Executive Vice-President Mitsuo Kino****a said Toyota would make operating profits of $6.1 billion in the fiscal year ending in March 2009, a decrease of 73.6% from a year ago. "


Ah poor toyota, only 6 billion. I guess they're almost finished. If you consider that a bad case why do you think GM is in such good shape?

"During the first half of the fiscal year, Toyota's operating income came to $5.9 billion. That means, given its $6.1 billon earnings forecast for the full year, it's expecting to make only $200 million between October and the end of March."

Irrationality at its best.

[BGH]

"That leaves Ford with cash reserves of just $18.9bn (£12.1bn) – enough to last for just seven months if it continues to spend money at the same rate. The plight of the 'big three' was further emphasised by GM's announcement it was suspending merger talks with Chrysler in the face of its own third-quarter losses."

Everyone expects the cash burn to slow, as stated in your other article. And Ford also has unused line of credits.

Ford's international operations are still making money
"Despite the gloomy news in America, Ford of Europe made a profit (albeit down by $224m), and it’s south American operations posted an increased profit, up from $94m (£59.7m)to $480m (£304.9m)."

Ford also has the F150 (their best seller) is coming out and the Fusion is out next year, off the Mazda6 platform. Your own links prove you wrong, especially with some extra tid bits of info thrown in.

Read them again.

[zete]

Originally Posted by BGH

Did you even read your own links?

And even though Ford outlined a series of actions to provide $14 billion to $17 billion in cash through 2010, such as reducing costs and further culling its workforce, Patrick Archambault of Goldman, Sachs & Co., still said Ford’s “cash burn is troubling.

And Toyota may have lost money in North America, but its overall operations operations remain profitable and according to your own links are expected to remain profitable.

"Toyota Executive Vice-President Mitsuo Kino****a said Toyota would make operating profits of $6.1 billion in the fiscal year ending in March 2009, a decrease of 73.6% from a year ago. "


Ah poor toyota, only 6 billion. I guess they're almost finished. If you consider that a bad case why do you think GM is in such good shape?

"During the first half of the fiscal year, Toyota's operating income came to $5.9 billion. That means, given its $6.1 billon earnings forecast for the full year, it's expecting to make only $200 million between October and the end of March."

Irrationality at its best.

What's been talked about -- Toyota's losses of $353M these past 6 months -- is a North American issue. Toyota, with NONE of GM's legacy costs, lost $353M! If Toyota had GM's legacy costs they may have lost MORE in North America than GM did these past 6 months. Think about that.

Toyota is NOT profitable at the moment in North America. That's a fact. It would also explain their 0% financing last month. They can afford to do the 0%, but then so could GM in 2001.

This auto malaise will strike the rest of the world and it's going to hurt.

[zete]

Originally Posted by BGH

"That leaves Ford with cash reserves of just $18.9bn (£12.1bn) – enough to last for just seven months if it continues to spend money at the same rate. The plight of the 'big three' was further emphasised by GM's announcement it was suspending merger talks with Chrysler in the face of its own third-quarter losses."

Everyone expects the cash burn to slow, as stated in your other article. And Ford also has unused line of credits.

Ford's international operations are still making money
"Despite the gloomy news in America, Ford of Europe made a profit (albeit down by $224m), and it’s south American operations posted an increased profit, up from $94m (£59.7m)to $480m (£304.9m)."

Ford also has the F150 (their best seller) is coming out and the Fusion is out next year, off the Mazda6 platform. Your own links prove you wrong, especially with some extra tid bits of info thrown in.

Read them again.

The whole point is they're basing how long the cash will last based on the past quarter's burn. If it slows, they all last longer. If it speeds up, the exit is much closer.

[BGH]

Originally Posted by zete

What's been talked about -- Toyota's losses of $353M these past 6 months -- is a North American issue. Toyota, with NONE of GM's legacy costs, lost $353M! If Toyota had GM's legacy costs they may have lost MORE in North America than GM did these past 6 months. Think about that.

Toyota is NOT profitable at the moment in North America. That's a fact. It would also explain their 0% financing last month. They can afford to do the 0%, but then so could GM in 2001.

This auto malaise will strike the rest of the world and it's going to hurt.

1) That's not the issue.
2) Not completely accurate.

First point i was discussing over the past several years toyota has been making money while GM has been struggling and its operations have not made money.

And Toyota is about 75 years old and his highly unionized in Japan. All those legacy costs you keep talking about could not have come before Toyota started as those people would be dead by now. So that's not much of an excuse.

2) The loss does not include interest rate swaps and vehicles shipped from Japan, so that means all those high margin lexus are not included in the number. Include those and i'm sure Toyota would have at least broke even.

And last I checked GM was still an International company. And all its divisions lost money, and those include areas without legacy costs.

And another note on Ford. Those numbers do not include Ford's line of credits, and the fact it will be spending less.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by BGH

"That leaves Ford with cash reserves of just $18.9bn (£12.1bn) – enough to last for just seven months if it continues to spend money at the same rate. The plight of the 'big three' was further emphasised by GM's announcement it was suspending merger talks with Chrysler in the face of its own third-quarter losses."

Everyone expects the cash burn to slow, as stated in your other article. And Ford also has unused line of credits.

Ford's international operations are still making money
"Despite the gloomy news in America, Ford of Europe made a profit (albeit down by $224m), and it’s south American operations posted an increased profit, up from $94m (£59.7m)to $480m (£304.9m)."

Ford also has the F150 (their best seller) is coming out and the Fusion is out next year, off the Mazda6 platform. Your own links prove you wrong, especially with some extra tid bits of info thrown in.

Read them again.

Ford's credit lines are used to ensure that Ford has enough cash to continue its operations. Ford requires close to $10.7b per month to operate. You specifically said that Ford has years of cash, which is clearly not the case. With the cuts Ford attempts to pay, chances are there will be a lot of one time costs that can possibly have the losses. Yes Alan has said that losses will be less, but there is no guarantee and with the plans you can certainly not be sure. The cuts that will be made will benefit however in the Q1/Q2 2009. If Ford does spend less than their current rate, they can extend it from the 7 months.

GM has also made profit in 14 out of the 16 regions to which they are selling in. North America is the largest auto market, with most companies having trouble being profitable.

But hey if you want to twist and turn the facts around in your favour, keep doing so.