U.S. Must Boost Aid for Hybrid Autos, Supplier Says

[steinravnik]

U.S. Must Boost Aid for Hybrid Autos, Supplier Says

Aug. 12 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. automakers and suppliers need more federal financial aid to spur production of gasoline- electric autos and batteries, Johnson Controls Inc.'s top hybrid executive said.

``They're ignorant,'' Mary Ann Wright, a Johnson Controls vice president, said of U.S. regulators and legislators during a presentation today at an industry conference in Traverse City, Michigan. ``They do not understand the technology challenges.''

Federal grants and tax credits should be expanded so hybrid-development work occurs in the U.S., Wright told reporters after her address. Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. builds a hybrid Camry in the U.S. and will add production of its top- selling Prius, while importing pivotal parts such as batteries.

Wright issued her call after Milwaukee-based Johnson Controls, the largest maker of automotive batteries, and French partner Saft Groupe SA won an $8.2 million contract today to develop a lithium-ion battery system for plug-in hybrids.

``There is a sort of strange flaw in the thinking at the federal level that encourages development but not U.S. production of these technologies,'' said K.G. Duleep, managing director of Arlington, Virginia-based Energy and Environmental Analysis, a research group that consults automakers and the government on advanced vehicle technologies. ``The feds haven't paid attention to the manufacturing side.''

The grant to Johnson Controls-Saft is from the U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium, which consists of U.S.-based automakers General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, and includes U.S. Energy Department funding.

The department is seeking $52.9 million to support development and commercialization of plug-in hybrids and advanced lithium-ion batteries in fiscal 2009, up from $41.2 million in fiscal 2008 and just $1.4 million in fiscal 2006, spokeswoman Jennifer Scoggins said today.

``The Department of Energy is currently aggressively researching alternative vehicles and fuels that reduce greenhouse gas emissions and diversify our energy supply and sources to reduce our dependence on oil,'' Scoggins said.

The agency supports plug-in hybrids, hydrogen-fueled cars, biofuels and other advanced vehicle technologies, Scoggins said.

``GM, Ford and Chrysler aren't competing against each other, they're competing against the world,'' Wright said. ``We have to look at it as national survival. Nobody is going to do this on their own.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aNhrS0bvHEPU

[Hunid Racks]

Originally Posted by steinravnik

``There is a sort of strange flaw in the thinking at the federal level that encourages development but not U.S. production of these technologies,'' said K.G. Duleep, managing director of Arlington, Virginia-based Energy and Environmental Analysis, a research group that consults automakers and the government on advanced vehicle technologies. ``The feds haven't paid attention to the manufacturing side.''

Flaw?

We elect these people, we should know better.

[bobojay]

There'a alot of "strange flaws" in Washington right now. This all need to be designed and built in the US.

[HoosierRon]

I can't wait for the America Last crowd to chime in about "free" markets.

[regfootball]

we live in an age where saying common sense stuff like this falls on deaf ears. The politicians cannot immediate profit from it, nor can the fat cat business people.

lack of forward thinking. its a US culture problem.

[ChevroletRevived]

It's just common sense that manufacturing should be aided as well. The more things we can manufacture of our own, right here in the US, the better. These are the technologies of the future: it's downright idiotic to have no concern with producing them in the U.S.

[TruckMan]

It would be nice to have these manufacturing jobs here in America. Too bad nobody is taking the initiative to develope the technology on their own. Everybody wants everything given to them. Nobody wants to do the work without government backing.

[motorman]

i want to know how long will they last and how much will the replacement batteries cost at the end of their life cycle. who is going to spend $4K to replace a battery in a car that is worth less $4K when the car is 8-10 years old ?

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by motorman

i want to know how long will they last and how much will the replacement batteries cost at the end of their life cycle. who is going to spend $4K to replace a battery in a car that is worth less $4K when the car is 8-10 years old ?

A lot right now, but 10 years from now the $2500 battery today could probably be had for under $1000because the technology gets cheaper.

You have to accept that you are buying a more complex vehicle and accept that logically a more complex machine will need more complex repairs, but you have to factor in whether that is worth it.

With a Volt or Prius, the advantage is likely worth it, but say with the pretend hybrids like the Malibu, long term is probably not economic due to the same complexity but much lower return.

[tgagneguam]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

It would be nice to have these manufacturing jobs here in America. Too bad nobody is taking the initiative to develope the technology on their own. Everybody wants everything given to them. Nobody wants to do the work without government backing.

Yes, it's funny how pathetic a large portion of the population has become: waiting for handouts to get the job done.

And there's nothing quite like "America First" people who propose further strengthening our financial dependence on others nations for the sake of energy independence or "helping out" American industry in such typically unhelpful ways. In the mean time, all sorts of red tape is thrown in front of American industry, government doesn't support educating the masses in any meaningful fashion (take a look at dropout rates in major metropolitan areas), and the tax burden continues. Address any one of these three more important issues, and you will much more substantively help American industry.

Of course, we're still stuck with unimaginative, uninspired, typical politicking with tax breaks supported by too many people, both politicians and the electorate alike. I'm waiting for these same people to support another income tax rebate check (a.k.a., wealth redistribution penalty to buy foreign junk) that will do very little to support the economy in the long-term. Ugh, American industry is indeed doomed!

[RamJet502]

For hybrids - no
For fuel cells - yes

Hybrids don't solve the problem, they buy us time.

[rob2299usa]

Originally Posted by logansowner

With a Volt or Prius, the advantage is likely worth it, but say with the pretend hybrids like the Malibu, long term is probably not economic due to the same complexity but much lower return.

I get the point you were trying to make but this is a joke right? Same complexity?!?

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by motorman

i want to know how long will they last and how much will the replacement batteries cost at the end of their life cycle. who is going to spend $4K to replace a battery in a car that is worth less $4K when the car is 8-10 years old ?

This is a good question... luckily there is already a good statistical body of data being created and expanded.

First: The batteries may be the most reliable part of any new vehicle these days. It has the longest warranty of any part and now that they have been on the road for 8+ years owners are finding that there is no reason not to expect them to last 250,000 miles or more.

The Federal Govt under the DOE is testing all the hybrids at INL in Boise. They test them to 160,000 miles. Thus far they have found NO failures and even better performance than when new...better fuel economy.

Toyota has tested it's own batteries to 180,000 miles in house.

In the CARB states the minimum warranty on them is 10 yrs / 150,000 miles.

HybridCars just published and article indicating that the replacement rate for the NiMH batteries from Honda is less than 0.2% ( 2 out of 1000 ). Toyota's number was under 0.003% ( 1 out of 40,000 ).

Simply put they don't wear out in normal usage for any normal lifetime.

Now what is any $20000 auto worth after 10 yrs and 150,000 miles? You can look it up but the number is well under $1000 and closer to $300. At 250,000 miles that vehicle is worthless. We're talking about normal ICE non-hybrids. If anything serious goes out on a vehicle with 225,000 miles it's dumb to fix it in most cases. It's a throw-away. It doesn't matter if it's a tranny or engine or exhaust system or hybrid battery. At 225,000 miles it doesn't make any sense to replace any of them....each one will cost about $3000 into a vehicle that's worth $500 tops.