Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions - Page 5

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Thread: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Actually capitalism is the best system in existence at distributing wealth.
    Yes, but to whom?

    Enlighten yourself and watch Zeitgeist.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    I think Unions themselves have to find a way to sell themselves to businesses. Unions all used to sell them selves as a highly trained, highly productive workforce. That's no longer always the case. In many ways some unions are now the exact opposite of that. Unions used to be the FIRST choice of places to go to learn a craft or skill set. They used to have unparalleled job training. Now they often struggle to find a competitive edge in some industries. We have also allowed the definition of "skilled" labor to drift quite a bit.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Ahhhhh yes, the Apollo Global Management group. I just so happen to work in a chemical plant that is owned by Apollo. They HATE us with a passion.......because we are union. Nevermind the fact the we are one of the top resin manufacturing plants in the world, including Dow/Dupont.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    I'm reminded of the time, a few years ago, when two neighbor kids who I didn't know from Adam, knocked on the door and asked if they could borrow our snowblower.

    Never mind that I haven't seen a kid come by any house we've lived in in the past 20 years stop by to see if they could cut the grass, rake the leaves/dandelions, or shovel the snow.
    Kid that lives down from where I used to live asked to mow all the time. I even let him do it a few times.
    I had a nice lawnmower. When I moved to a place where I didn't need a one anymore I sold it to him.
    That kid also had a snowcone making machine & cart. He sells them during the summer.

    He's a worker and 16 years old. I told his dad the kid was gonna be rich someday.
    I got tired of waiting for GM to make a FWD convertible.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
    I think Unions themselves have to find a way to sell themselves to businesses. Unions all used to sell them selves as a highly trained, highly productive workforce. That's no longer always the case. In many ways some unions are now the exact opposite of that. Unions used to be the FIRST choice of places to go to learn a craft or skill set. They used to have unparalleled job training. Now they often struggle to find a competitive edge in some industries. We have also allowed the definition of "skilled" labor to drift quite a bit.
    One can dream. I like to believe one day, this will once again be the case.
    "They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple, but man I ain't goin' for that. I know it was her pink Cadillac!"

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by johnstarnes View Post
    I would hope you realize that this goes beyond just numbers, but treating actual fellow warm blooded human beings working hard and trying to support their families with a modicum of respect vs. preying on them in a near-hostage situation. Then again, Wall Street/Goldman Sachs/etc. helped to create the melt down by considering ONLY numbers via bogus derivatives, fraudulent foreclosures, cooked books and more, with treating one's fellow citizens fairly and honestly apparently considered an unacceptably quaint "cost of doing business"....classic heartless "vulture capitalism". How do the Waltons and their exploitive ilk sleep each night? How many hundreds of millions and billions, ill-gotten, in offshore accounts, are enough?
    So we're weighing quantitative analysis against a perceived "respect" factor? You don't know Walmart management, the Waltons, or any of the factors behind deciding their business model and pay rates, so trying to judge them based on touchy-feely factors is a logical dead-end.

    Let's flip it around... for the average Walmart worker, how much in salary is "enough"? How much is "fair"? Is it a percent of revenue? Is it a percent of profit? I can't write "respectful" in the amount section of someone's check.
    "They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple, but man I ain't goin' for that. I know it was her pink Cadillac!"

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by wescoent View Post
    One can dream. I like to believe one day, this will once again be the case.
    I know some of the unions like the pipefitters and boilermakers are actively working with industry to recruit and redesign their training programs. the problem is they are also still demanding wage increases, and quite frankly in the last coupe of years the economy hasn't justified it.

    There is some benefit there for sure, but when you basically get a 2 year path to journeyman now, the skill set isn't as good as it was 10 years ago when there was a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship and then hitting the journeyman level. But that was the sacrifice the unions made to make the program attractive to applicants (they were under assault from trade schools and technical programs). I totally understand that, it was a business move (make no mistakes unions are business's), but they devalued their product (skilled labor) in doing so. Then they were unwilling to take a cut (or even forgo an increase).

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
    There is some benefit there for sure, but when you basically get a 2 year path to journeyman now, the skill set isn't as good as it was 10 years ago when there was a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship and then hitting the journeyman level.
    The Department of Labor is involved in setting journeyman standards around +/-7500hrs IIRC for hands on experience.

    The Pipefitters Apprenticeship Program consists of five years of class room and lab training. Apprentices have opportunities to advance in all aspects of the Pipefitting industry. Our training provides the framework for Construction and HVAC Service Apprentices to develop into highly skilled Journeyman. Apprentices will attend class one day per week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday) for 42 weeks for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year of apprenticeship. The final two years of the program the Apprentice will attend one night class per week, for 28 weeks a year. Apprentices will have the opportunity to work when not in class. Class sessions begin in September of each year. Scheduled holiday breaks are included through out the program.


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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by wescoent View Post
    So we're weighing quantitative analysis against a perceived "respect" factor? You don't know Walmart management, the Waltons, or any of the factors behind deciding their business model and pay rates, so trying to judge them based on touchy-feely factors is a logical dead-end.

    Let's flip it around... for the average Walmart worker, how much in salary is "enough"? How much is "fair"? Is it a percent of revenue? Is it a percent of profit? I can't write "respectful" in the amount section of someone's check.
    No offense meant, but I can imagine your crafting a lofty sounding defense of the butcher who puts his finger on the scale when the customer isn't looking.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by wescoent View Post
    So we're weighing quantitative analysis against a perceived "respect" factor? You don't know Walmart management, the Waltons, or any of the factors behind deciding their business model and pay rates, so trying to judge them based on touchy-feely factors is a logical dead-end.

    Let's flip it around... for the average Walmart worker, how much in salary is "enough"? How much is "fair"? Is it a percent of revenue? Is it a percent of profit? I can't write "respectful" in the amount section of someone's check.
    I continue to be amazed at all of the illogical thinking these types of threads bring out, I respect and appreciate your knowledge and understanding, as well as your attempt to "educate" the less informed.


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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by johnstarnes View Post
    No offense meant, but I can imagine your crafting a lofty sounding defense of the butcher who puts his finger on the scale when the customer isn't looking.
    Except in that case, it's outright fraud in not following through on an agreed upon rate for goods or service.

    I presented clean numbers, demonstrating that Walmart employs many more people per dollar of revenue, relative to Costco. I could open a Walmart competitor, and automate the entire store, controlled by one guy at a computer, and pay him $100,000 a year. A Walmart store might employ 250 people, and a Costco store might employ 50 people. So, my average worker pay crushes Walmart and Costco, but the entire town is unemployed, because I only give one person a job. If Costco were the case, only 80% of the town is unemployed, but the 20% with jobs earn a decent living. In Walmart's case, everyone has a job, but it just pays very little.

    So again, which model really is better?
    "They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple, but man I ain't goin' for that. I know it was her pink Cadillac!"

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by V-Car View Post
    Yes, but to whom?

    Enlighten yourself and watch Zeitgeist.
    Historically, far far more than any system that existed previously.

    I searched zeitgeist and didn't find much. Please enlighten me, I hate to miss sunshine and butterflies.

    Quote Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
    I think Unions themselves have to find a way to sell themselves to businesses. Unions all used to sell them selves as a highly trained, highly productive workforce. That's no longer always the case. In many ways some unions are now the exact opposite of that. Unions used to be the FIRST choice of places to go to learn a craft or skill set. They used to have unparalleled job training. Now they often struggle to find a competitive edge in some industries. We have also allowed the definition of "skilled" labor to drift quite a bit.
    Quite a mission, with all those burning bridges in the background.
    Insane work rules, strongarm/thug negotiating tactics (not to mention convictions), looting of pension funds by the Big Cheeses...what could possibly go wrong here?

    I grew up among a mix of blue and white collar kids in suburban Motown. Word was that you had to have family or other connections to get into apprenticeship programs.

    Many of these kids were real pricks, BTW, and many of their fathers worked at Ford.

    I got a job at a Ford factory as a teen, and shortly thereafter a good friend hired in there. He lasted a couple of months IIRC, before his old man (career Ford worker) through his connections got him into an apprenticeship program at a model shop. Busting ass on the line vs. an apprenticeship, easy choise.

    He is where I first heard the term "government job." He made various stuff for me and other people, on Uncle Henry's dime and with his materials.

    As I heard more and more stories from him, I gained more admiration/amazement for how Ford could stay in business, given the vast number of screw-offs that they carried on their backs. These are people who contribute little overall to the corporation, while subtracting considerably.

    He eventually retired early, I believe. Not before making implied threats about how he might go bananas as a result of his Vietnam experiences. Major manipulator and gamer.

    I ran across plenty of dead weight at the union factory. I worked and later ran some feeder lines to the final line.

    When one excellent helper departed for some reason, it took weeks and many, many non-compos-mentis as well as physically highly unmotivated trial helpers before my foreman finally found someone who could/would actually put in eight hours of hard work.

    Dragging someone around as he "helps" you is exhausting, and a waste of time. But all those deadweights went somewhere, and Ford paid them well to be useless oxygen-consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by eaton53 View Post
    Kid that lives down from where I used to live asked to mow all the time. I even let him do it a few times.
    I had a nice lawnmower. When I moved to a place where I didn't need a one anymore I sold it to him.
    That kid also had a snowcone making machine & cart. He sells them during the summer.

    He's a worker and 16 years old. I told his dad the kid was gonna be rich someday.
    Lucky you.

    One of my childhood buds had a profitable lawn mowing business as a teen. He eventually became a very successful contractor. Made big bucks.
    I googled his name one day and saw he'd been convicted of two felonies for dumping hazmat out in the woods somewhere. He plea-bargained out of any hard time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed753 View Post
    I continue to be amazed at all of the illogical thinking these types of threads bring out, I respect and appreciate your knowledge and understanding, as well as your attempt to "educate" the less informed.
    Tin fo that transmission.

    Quote Originally Posted by wescoent View Post
    Except in that case, it's outright fraud in not following through on an agreed upon rate for goods or service.

    I presented clean numbers, demonstrating that Walmart employs many more people per dollar of revenue, relative to Costco. I could open a Walmart competitor, and automate the entire store, controlled by one guy at a computer, and pay him $100,000 a year. A Walmart store might employ 250 people, and a Costco store might employ 50 people. So, my average worker pay crushes Walmart and Costco, but the entire town is unemployed, because I only give one person a job. If Costco were the case, only 80% of the town is unemployed, but the 20% with jobs earn a decent living. In Walmart's case, everyone has a job, but it just pays very little.

    So again, which model really is better?
    Last edited by Neanderthal; 04-29-2013 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    I got a job at a Ford factory as a teen, and shortly thereafter a good friend hired in there. He lasted a couple of months IIRC, before his old man (career Ford worker) through his connections got him into an apprenticeship program at a model shop. Busting ass on the line vs. an apprenticeship, easy choise.

    He is where I first heard the term "government job." He made various stuff for me and other people, on Uncle Henry's dime and with his materials.

    As I heard more and more stories from him, I gained more admiration/amazement for how Ford could stay in business, given the vast number of screw-offs that they carried on their backs. These are people who contribute little overall to the corporation, while subtracting considerably.

    He eventually retired early, I believe. Not before making implied threats about how he might go bananas as a result of his Vietnam experiences. Major manipulator and gamer.

    I ran across plenty of dead weight at the union factory. I worked and later ran some feeder lines to the final line.

    When one excellent helper departed for some reason, it took weeks and many, many non-compos-mentis as well as physically highly unmotivated trial helpers before my foreman finally found someone who could/would actually put in eight hours of hard work.

    Dragging someone around as he "helps" you is exhausting, and a waste of time. But all those deadweights went somewhere, and Ford paid them well to be useless oxygen-consumers.
    While I do appreciate you sharing your experiences it is anecdotal evidence just as my experiences with current day business owners and foremans who ignore OSHA and EPA rules. We currently have an issue with well off business owners directing their employees(non-union) to dispose of contaminated fracking by products into the water ways. There are many pro-executive people on this site that don't think we need oversight of business because modern executives are all on the up and up now.

    Since I called Michigan home at one point as well I can match your stories with those of management at the big three using union labor on company time to complete projects at their homes/cabins. Corruption was/is on both sides but the media only likes reporting one way.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowboy View Post
    The Department of Labor is involved in setting journeyman standards around +/-7500hrs IIRC for hands on experience.

    I guess I should have been more clear. They have all dropped their requirements significantly in recent years. The 2 year program is through the IBEW and is generally only on the industrial side of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderthal View Post
    Historically, far far more than any system that existed previously.

    I searched zeitgeist and didn't find much. Please enlighten me, I hate to miss sunshine and butterflies.



    Quite a mission, with all those burning bridges in the background.
    Insane work rules, strongarm/thug negotiating tactics (not to mention convictions), looting of pension funds by the Big Cheeses...what could possibly go wrong here?

    I grew up among a mix of blue and white collar kids in suburban Motown. Word was that you had to have family or other connections to get into apprenticeship programs.

    Many of these kids were real pricks, BTW, and many of their fathers worked at Ford.

    I got a job at a Ford factory as a teen, and shortly thereafter a good friend hired in there. He lasted a couple of months IIRC, before his old man (career Ford worker) through his connections got him into an apprenticeship program at a model shop. Busting ass on the line vs. an apprenticeship, easy choise.

    He is where I first heard the term "government job." He made various stuff for me and other people, on Uncle Henry's dime and with his materials.

    As I heard more and more stories from him, I gained more admiration/amazement for how Ford could stay in business, given the vast number of screw-offs that they carried on their backs. These are people who contribute little overall to the corporation, while subtracting considerably.

    He eventually retired early, I believe. Not before making implied threats about how he might go bananas as a result of his Vietnam experiences. Major manipulator and gamer.

    I ran across plenty of dead weight at the union factory. I worked and later ran some feeder lines to the final line.

    When one excellent helper departed for some reason, it took weeks and many, many non-compos-mentis as well as physically highly unmotivated trial helpers before my foreman finally found someone who could/would actually put in eight hours of hard work.

    Dragging someone around as he "helps" you is exhausting, and a waste of time. But all those deadweights went somewhere, and Ford paid them well to be useless oxygen-consumers.



    Lucky you.

    One of my childhood buds had a profitable lawn mowing business as a teen. He eventually became a very successful contractor. Made big bucks.
    I googled his name one day and saw he'd been convicted of two felonies for dumping hazmat out in the woods somewhere. He plea-bargained out of any hard time.



    Tin fo that transmission.
    I agree that it's a major battle. Your totally right about the union in many instances. You basically have to be born into leadership position in a union. Most of them are run by families or groups of them. In leadership they have the same issues our politics do, it's more about the leadership staying elected than about truly representing and caring for their people.

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    Re: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, HoHos, Ultimate Fighting, Autos & Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowboy View Post
    While I do appreciate you sharing your experiences it is anecdotal evidence just as my experiences with current day business owners and foremans who ignore OSHA and EPA rules. We currently have an issue with well off business owners directing their employees(non-union) to dispose of contaminated fracking by products into the water ways. There are many pro-executive people on this site that don't think we need oversight of business because modern executives are all on the up and up now.
    Business oversight is extremely important. However, the agencies tasked with doing so are often incompetent and unable to perform their duties effectively. For example, why is the EPA failing to adequately follow their prescribed duty of keeping contaminants out of waterways, while they have plenty of time and money to combat imagined man-made climate change?
    "They say Eve tempted Adam with an apple, but man I ain't goin' for that. I know it was her pink Cadillac!"

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