Test Driving the Fuel Cell: Chevrolet Equinox

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by E-Flex

You almost wrote it yourself:

Fossil fuel may be available much longer than we are expecting today, but we keep exploiting it much faster than it can ever regenerate, so it definitely will disappear some day. And we should have a substitute ready by then. Another issue are the toxic emissions we cannot get completely rid of as long as we keep burning fossil fuel.

You make good points and thanks for commenting. Of course, the fossil fuel you mention will be used to generate the hydrogen as well as charge the battery on a PHEV until we can develop more solar (wind, PV etc.). The good thing is that there are only 2000 power plants in the country and we know where they are and who owns them so we can control the emissions as much as we want ($$). As for fuel after the battery runs out - you are right. However, I suspect that the length of time that even our domestic oil would last if we were to stop using 78% of it (just throwing that number in - admittedly) would be a very long time. However, eventually, we would need a substitute - unless, as you say, we develop super “super capacitor” and/or batteries that could have a range of several hundred miles and recharge in minutes. Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted by E-Flex

As far as I know, emissions produced by burning E85 are even more toxic (There is not only CO2!), and food prices are already exploding because farmers are producing E85 instead of food. This may be not a big issue in the US or the EU, but third world countries are running into a really severe problem.

It is hard to imagine that E85 makes sense from an energy or food perspective. I agree.

Originally Posted by E-Flex

Hydrogen fuel cells do not produce any toxic emissions, hydrogen does not compete with food for farming ground, and hydrogen is renewable in the sense that it is still contained in the steam emitted by the fuel cell.

The "renewable" part is always mentioned. However, the electrons used to charge a battery are never consumed - only moved back and forth on the AC power line (first in one direction and then in another) so in a weird way they too are 100% renewable. Of course, both battery charging and hydrogen production require energy input - I still believe that charging a battery results is more range than producing hydrogen and then "burning" it in a fuel cell (approx. 50% efficient?). Somehow I think the "hydrogen is renewable" is kind of like "there might be WMD in Iraq" - not really the issue(?).

Originally Posted by E-Flex

This is ok as long as you are not using your car for anything else that getting from home to work. After work, you cannot visit granny in the neighboring town because you first have to recharge your car for several hours. The journey to your holiday resort in Florida will take five times as long because you must recharge several times.

Of course you can use the Volt to travel approximately 375 mile between refueling. Only after 40 miles you would switch to another fuel source. This idea that we have to have a solution that works on battery 100% of the time has seriously slowed the development of PHEV's. Remember that 78% of us do not travel more than 40 miles per day (on average). Any longer trips (to dear old granny's etc.) would simply require that the ICE be used. We obviously can't strand the user.

Originally Posted by E-Flex

This may change as soon as really strong batteries (400 miles per charge in real life) or faster recharging (max. 15 min) are possible, but I do not see them appear at the horizon.

I agree and hope that it arrives sooner than we both think. Thanks again.

Ed

[MisterMe]

Originally Posted by CaptainDan

Hydrogen is as much a "fuel" as gasoline is. And gasoline is as much a "storage mechanism" as gasoline is. ...

It really more of an issue with time scales. This is means that hydrogen stores energy that was recently generated from any number of sources--solar, nuclear, geothermal, petroleum (heaven forbid), whatever. Gasoline is solar energy stored millions of years ago. For the sake of brevity, I won't get into synthetic fuels.

As for the hydrogen leak issue, this is not unique to hydrogen. Gasoline evaporates. Its molecules also change over time. This is not the capacity that I was talking about. A hydrogen tank can always be refilled to its rated capacity. This is to say that a 1000 psi tank will hold as much hydrogen in 2013 as it does in 2008. A rechargeable battery will not hold as much charge in 2013 as it does in 2008. Its ability to store electric charge diminishes over time. Over time, it will also discharge faster. These are why rechargeable batteries have to be replaced periodically.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

It really more of an issue with time scales. This is means that hydrogen stores energy that was recently generated from any number of sources--solar, nuclear, geothermal, petroleum (heaven forbid), whatever. Gasoline is solar energy stored millions of years ago. For the sake of brevity, I won't get into synthetic fuels.

As for the hydrogen leak issue, this is not unique to hydrogen. Gasoline evaporates. Its molecules also change over time. This is not the capacity that I was talking about. A hydrogen tank can always be refilled to its rated capacity. This is to say that a 1000 psi tank will hold as much hydrogen in 2013 as it does in 2008. A rechargeable battery will not hold as much charge in 2013 as it does in 2008. Its ability to store electric charge diminishes over time. Over time, it will also discharge faster. These are why rechargeable batteries have to be replaced periodically.

A123 Systems claim the batteries they propose using for PHEV's will still have approx. 87% capacity after 3650 discharge cycles. That would equate to recharging the battery every day for 10 years. The Volt has two 8 KW batteries and will operate using only 8 KW total between charges - that looks like almost a 100% reserve to account for this slight degradation. Ten years seems like long enough. The Li Ion battery can then be recycled.

[EricR42]

Originally Posted by AndrewGS

Have you taken any photos of it yet?

Yeah, a lot actually. I had been meaning to post about my experiences, but a month into my 3 month test drive period (end of March), I severely broke my leg rollerblading with my kids. Leave it to me to mess up GM's carefully laid plans . So basically, I have a 2 month credit on my time. I figure I will wait until the end of summer to get the car back for the balance of the term because GM and Shell Hydrogen will hopefully have additional refueling stations online by then (one in the Bronx and one at JFK airport).

In the meantime, GM has been amazingly great about providing a car to me to do public events. For example, a week ago Sunday, we had a local street fare where I scheduled the car to appear at. I must have spoken to between 500 and 1000 people over the course of the day (my voice is only now recovered from it). A GM rep came down and took a bunch of pictures with his and my camera. I picked up the car today to participate in a local food drive tomorrow. I will be picking up and delivering food from local churches and synagogues to a food bank.

Tomorrow night, I will try and post some of the pictures of the car.

- Eric

[EricR42]

Originally Posted by edsuski

3 minute fill-ups take how long? You drive to a station (if you are lucky it is on the way home) and stop and connect the car to the pump and then process the payment and then fill the tank and then disconnect the filling hose from the car. Is it safe to say we are a little over 3 minutes? Not to mention that there are exactly how may filling stations that you can use? I am guessing that you were selected for the trial because you are close to the only station within many miles. You get my point. PHEV are simply plugged in at home each night (with a little luck you will simply drive it into a docking station similar in some was to what your notebook computer uses). The car will be charged during off-peak time and be full every morning. You may never have to visit a "gas" station again. In fact, GM estimates that 78% of Americans drive less than 40 miles to commute to and from work each day. That is within the range of the upcoming Volt PHEV.

I definetly see your point. By "3 minute fill-up", I am only talking about the actual time to fill the car (i.e. not including the payment processing, etc.). The point I was making is that 3 minutes of fill time is comparable to a conventional fill-up experience. If it is longer, then I don't believe it will be consumer acceptable. One of the dispensers I use can fill up in about 3 minutes.

Originally Posted by edsuski

As for scalability - Busses and even trains use electric motors. In the case of "bullet" trains the power is drawn from a "wire" so there is little or no battery needed but they are in a sense "plugged in". Diesel electric trains have existed for many decades. In this case, the diesel engine runs at it's most efficient speed and drives a generator. The energy is used to drive the electric motor. I'm not sure the scalability argument is valid – but I will give it more thought.

Exactly- they use electric motors. But as you mentioned, the trains require transmission of the power. Vehicles will need to store the electricity onboard. That means either batteries, fuel cells or a combination of both (assuming we are serious about moving past hydrocarbon fuels). My understanding (and I am a lawyer by trade and the science part of my brain atrophied long ago), batteries are very heavy and the larger the car, the bigger the battery pack. And so as you design larger vehicles, there is a point of diminishing returns where it is not feasible to have a batteries power the car (there is no point to a battery powered Hummer if most of the storage space is devoted to batteries). But with a fuel cell coupled with batteries, you can have a much smaller battery pack, and the fuel cell stack itself would be much smaller than an engine block. And, you get all that great torque that only an electric motor can provide My understanding is that is why the first application of pure battery electric is a small car like the Tesla Roadster.

Originally Posted by edsuski

A Chevy Volt will travel 40 miles on approximately $1.60 worth of electricity at California's ridiculously high rates ($0.20 per KW/hr). That represents 40 miles for less than $0.80 in most of the rest of the country. Using your low cost of $3.00/kg/54 miles you are getting 1 mile for 5.5 cents (15 cents per mile at $8/kg). The Volt, even in California, will cost only 4 cents per mile. 2 cents per mile in most of the rest of the country (or less). Again - with 100% of the recharging infrastructure in place today - and, conveniently, in peoples homes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the Volt, and if it weren't for the new Camaro and CTS Coupe, I would be definetely on the waiting list. GM is simply making it very hard for me to choose

But, the Volt is only a 4 seater. It is an excellent commuter car (which is why I want it, as I only drive about 30 miles per day in my current car (a 1997 Z-28). I would not want it in place of my family car. The Equinox, on the other hand is much bigger. I think the ideal first implementation of the fuel cell will be as part of the E-Flex platform like the Provoq. It would not necessarily need as big a battery as the fuel cell is more efficient at keeping it charged than the gas generator.

Originally Posted by edsuski

Of course you realize that the torque is a function of the motor used and the current the fuel cell can deliver. As you know, even the simple lead acid battery in your car can deliver 300-600 amps for short periods of time so I suspect that a battery design could ultimately deliver as much or (considerably) more current than a "typical" fuel cell resulting in even more torque (depending on the internal resistance of the battery).

Exactly, that is why the fuel cell is mated to a battery power module. The fuel cell likes to provide a steady stream of current. Batteries are much better at delivering large amounts of power on demand. The beauty of fuel cells are that it provides the perfect compliment to batteries, and you can use a fuel cell stack to provide the electricity to large sized vehicles as well. At the NY auto show several months ago, the gas powered E-Flex (the Volt) and the biodiesel version (the Saturn Flextreme) are pretty small cars. The Provoq (fuel cell variant) was the exception.

Originally Posted by edsuski

I think you are right. It is likely to take a decade or more to get a significant number of the 200K gas stations to offer hydrogen and then at a tremendous cost. This begs the question - why? Especially when 100% of the needed infrastructure exist today to recharge a PHEV.

Personally, I don't think the existing gas stations are the place to start. It is going to take a new company to invest in a piece of strategically located real estate (i.e. next to major highways). I believe that the automanufacturers (not just GM) will have to invest. There is a substantial amount of state and federal money available to match investment, so it might not be that difficult to get the beginnings of infrastructure in place.

Originally Posted by edsuski

I really would like to understand the reasoning behind the huge investment the government and car companies have put into hydrogen fuel cells. If there is any way I could ask this question to your "Project Driveway" team? I would really be interested in understanding their reasoning. I’m not trying to simply argue, but rather understand.

PM me, and I will pass your e-mail along.

- Eric

[ronald mcretard]

Originally Posted by MisterMe

It really more of an issue with time scales. This is means that hydrogen stores energy that was recently generated from any number of sources--solar, nuclear, geothermal, petroleum (heaven forbid), whatever. Gasoline is solar energy stored millions of years ago. For the sake of brevity, I won't get into synthetic fuels.

So would ethanol be a fuel? It is basically solar energy that was stored during the last crop. (medium time scale).

I say anything that you put in your car to make it go, is a fuel. That includes electrons in the case of a PHEV.

[ronald mcretard]

Originally Posted by EricR42

Don't get me wrong. I love the Volt, and if it weren't for the new Camaro and CTS Coupe, I would be definetely on the waiting list. GM is simply making it very hard for me to choose

But, the Volt is only a 4 seater. It is an excellent commuter car (which is why I want it, as I only drive about 30 miles per day in my current car (a 1997 Z-28). I would not want it in place of my family car. The Equinox, on the other hand is much bigger. I think the ideal first implementation of the fuel cell will be as part of the E-Flex platform like the Provoq. It would not necessarily need as big a battery as the fuel cell is more efficient at keeping it charged than the gas generator.

What about the PHEV Saturn VUE, scheduled for next year as a 2010 model?

[EricR42]

Originally Posted by ronald mcretard

What about the PHEV Saturn VUE, scheduled for next year as a 2010 model?

That is a dual mode. It is not a pure electric vehicle with a range extender. The gasoline engine directly powers the car. The plug-in feature will supplement the gas engine (rather than vice versa).

- Eric

[ronald mcretard]

Originally Posted by EricR42

That is a dual mode. It is not a pure electric vehicle with a range extender. The gasoline engine directly powers the car. The plug-in feature will supplement the gas engine (rather than vice versa).

- Eric

yeah I know, but it sounds like you want a larger vehicle, and it will have the best mpg of any vehicle bigger than a Prius.

[AMcA]

I read an interesting piece recently by a Cal Tech professor who argues that if we're really serious about de-carbonizing, hydrogen's the only way to go.

His argument in a nutshell: the only non-carbon source of energy that's capable of meeting the wrold's needs is solar. There's simply not enough uranium, wave, wind, geotherman, biomass, etc., to do the job. Solar is the only non-carbon energy source that we have enough of.

Its flaw, however, is that solar power ends for the day when the sun sets, so it needs a storage medium. And hydrogen's the best storage medium by his reckoning - better than batteries, better than flywheels - because it's transportable and storable.

I wish I could give you all a link to this article, but I read it on paper (!).

P.S. May I say this is about the most elevated, thoughtful thread I've ever seen on GMI? Hats off to all participants.

[EricR42]

Originally Posted by ronald mcretard

yeah I know, but it sounds like you want a larger vehicle, and it will have the best mpg of any vehicle bigger than a Prius.

Actually, I am bugging the fuel cell guys to make a hydrogen fuel cell sports coupe. What better way to show the world that the ICE's days may be numbered (I don't say sports car because I personally need some back seats for emergency kid hauling )

- Eric

[E-Flex]

Originally Posted by Z16monte

The majority of electricity in the US is generated by fossil fuels,either oil or coal.Mostly coal.Neither battery/electric or hydrogen powere car are going to help in that situation.
Ed

You are right. Cars are only one part of the energy problem, electricity is another (bigger) one. However, considerable improvements are underway also in this section: solar power, wind energy, a new generation of nuclear plants (which are said to produce hydrogen as an "exhaust"), etc.

[E-Flex]

Originally Posted by edsuski

Somehow I think the "hydrogen is renewable" is kind of like "there might be WMD in Iraq" - not really the issue(?).

The point about renewability is simply that we can avoid running into an out-of-hydrogen problem similar to the out-of-oil problem we are facing nowadays. Of course, this does not mean there cannot appear any other problems. Some of them we surely do not foresee now. Therefore, renewability is good to have, but in fact we need more than that.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by E-Flex

You are right. Cars are only one part of the energy problem, electricity is another (bigger) one. However, considerable improvements are underway also in this section: solar power, wind energy, a new generation of nuclear plants (which are said to produce hydrogen as an "exhaust"), etc.

What I think most people are worried about is this countries dependency on Middle East oil. Keep in mind that roughly 94% of the oil in America goes directly to gasoline. If we could significantly reduce our consumption of gasoline - we should be able to end our dependence on Middle East oil (stop financing terror, no go to war over oil etc,). At some point, we should be able to supply all of our oil needed to power PHEV's on long trips (beyond battery range) with domestic oil only. This would eventually work its way into flex fuels (E85, Biofuels etc.) and after say 15 - 20 years, we may be ready to support hydrogen - unless we are able to develop higher capacity and quick charging "battery" systems.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by E-Flex

The point about renewability is simply that we can avoid running into an out-of-hydrogen problem similar to the out-of-oil problem we are facing nowadays. Of course, this does not mean there cannot appear any other problems. Some of them we surely do not foresee now. Therefore, renewability is good to have, but in fact we need more than that.

This is the typical argument, but you don't actually consume the electrons needed to charge your batteries either. You do have to generate an electromotive force to make them move, but this is also required to make hydrogen. As you know H+ is not something you can pump from the ground or capture in the air. You have to put energy into something to strip off the H+ atom. That energy has to come from somewhere. The real issue is that it requires more energy to drive a mile on H+ than it does to drive a mile on a battery.

Someday we will get more and more energy from "real-time" solar sources (PV, wind etc.) and reduce our dependency on fossil fuels. Until then - we could reduce our need for oil (94% of which is burned in cars) using PHEV's by as much as 78% and use carbon based fuels (gasoline, E85, biofuels etc.) for the occasional "long" trips.

If we are lucky, we will improve existing "super capacitors" and reduce battery charge times so that you will be able to fill up the capacitors in the time it takes to refuel today and drive away using the power in the capacitor while at the same time, additional power from the capacitor is fast charging the batteries. Theoretically, you could drive for the next several hours on the future "super super" capacitors while they are fast charging the batteries. Once the capacitors are exhausted - you can draw from the batteries and "hopefully" this will get you to “bladder range” on a plug-in vehicle and eliminate the need to develop the multi billion dollar infrastructure to deploy Hydrogen refueling stations.

Remember - the infrastructure for plug-in electric vehicles is 100% deployed TODAY. Done!