A shocking number, but not a death knell

[tom3]

Let's face it, we're in a declining market in the auto industry. Layoffs, inflation, wage reductions, credit shortages, and energy costs just to name a few current problems. The old bloated companies are the ones that are paying the price for outdated products and practices. Put GM at the top of the heap ($15.5 billion loss in one quarter!) but the whole auto industry is feeling the heat. Going to continue for the next several years I suspect. I don't see the Malibu, with its narrow profit margin, or the Camaro, with its limited customer base, saving the company.

[Orbit Orange]

I don't see the Malibu, with its narrow profit margin, or the Camaro, with its limited customer base, saving the company.

OK then, what do you propose?

Of course 2 vehicles aren't going to save GM. But then again they aren't hurting it either. The Malibu is a very good vehicle and stacks up well to the Camcord cars. Camaro will be a good seller in the niche market as well. Look, if GM puts the attention it did on the Malibu into ALL it's bread and butter models, then puts the attention it did on the Camaro with ALL it's niche models then the company will be in much better shape. You're right, things are tough for all companies. There are just SO many choices out there for American customers now that it is impossible to get that high market share GM used to get. It has to trim back and make the offerings it does have strong. Malibu and Camaro are strong in my opinion as well as others. That can't be said about other models that come to mind like G6, LaCrosse, Aveo, DTS, Impala, G5, Lucerne, Colorado/Canyon to name some. Just because a couple of models aren't SAVING GM doesn't mean they don't help the company.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Care to prove me wrong and actually post up what you'd do to turn around GM? Pointing out what NOT to do doesn't count.

Fixing GM couldn't be simpler, and it couldn't be more complicated:

1) Fix their business model

2) Deliver consistent results

3) Be patient

Three simple things.

First, they need to decide what they will be able to sell in order to be profitable.

Frankly, I don't know if GM is capable of selling luxury cars. Buick needs to be divorced from Pontiac and GMC if it wants to be taken seriously against Lexus. Cadillacs cannot share showroom space with Chevrolets if they want to be taken seriously. Premium product needs to come with a premium customer experience, and this means keeping customers away from people buying Cobalts and Silverados. Is this elitist and snooty? Heck yes, but that's how luxury products work. If GM can't see this, then they have no business selling luxury cars.

GM can do decent sports cars, which is indicative of Lutz's love of them. However, they have absolutely no idea how to manage Pontiac. There is no reason why Chevy has a turbo Cobalt, and Pontiac has a vanilla G5. Pontiac performance should come first, then give Chevy the leftovers and half-baked sporty products for SS. The top trim level of a Pontiac should be the sportiest car in whatever class it lives in.

GM has to deliver consistent products, and be PATIENT. If the Cadillac STS isn't selling, fix it. Don't replace it with a brand new DT7. If the Cobalt isn't selling, fix it, and don't replace it with a brand new Cruze. Every time they switch model names, they're throwing away millions of dollars in marketing effort, and every time they dump platforms, they're throwing away millions in engineering.

Yet, every time they get the chance, they simply refuse to abide by these basic principles.

[Hunid Racks]

Originally Posted by FXjohn

tell me all about the Honda truck investments gone sour.

Honda originally projected sales for the new Pilot to be 180 thousand.

Think they are going to get that?

[PAULSTS1]

This forum was designed for auto enthusiasts; for fun and enjoyment. In the last few years, instead of extolling the value and excitement of new and exciting cars entering the marketplace, it’s been replaced by disappointment from information showing that cars expected have been taken off the fastrack to production, that engines, technologies, and replacement models, have been killed.

IT IS UNFAIR: To ask anyone what “we” (meaning: outsiders, uninformed, any yes the unqualified, without private boardroom facts) would do to turn around GM. I have been self-employed, a Corporate General Manager, and a Board member, each company is different and has its own inherent issues. However, when losses (on paper or cash) continue, it indicates serious and a possibly fatal situation may result, if emergency directives and corrections are not completed immediately.

For contrast consider an accident victim bleeding profusely. It really doesn’t matter, if he were driving a Honda or Cadillac. If something doesn’t curtail the bleeding issue, the victim will die. (I guess die hard GM fans will say: At least his last ride is in a Cadillac!) But, to his family (those on whom depend on his being around), this is a tragedy; it has become a profound loss. So I guess the most important decision is to stop the bleeding, anyone that is incapable of doing that is; inept, incompetent, untrained with the skills or uncaring. This is how many people are beginning to see the GM Board of Directors. They are gambling with the lives of the: shareholders, the dealers, employees, retirees, their lenders, and finally the government (all of us).

I am further shocked at how so many take criticism of a publically traded company, so seriously! So many are being personally attacked, with rude disrespectful comments, and condescension, if this were occurring in a workplace, the result would be serious disciplinary action, leading up to termination of the offending individual. Sometimes we may fall into a condition called: Willful Blindness: failure to see what the real results can be: A once incredibly successful over 100 year old company, with a World Class reputation that could be completely out of business within a year’s time!

Forget the hype: That the company has enough funds to last until 2011. Any emergency can change the profit/loss ratio, at any time. Lenders can decline to lend, or increase interest rates to levels so high, that it actually increases the default probability. A close friend of mine sent me a copy of a letter sent to 75,000 of his Banks customers who had Equity Lines of Credit: Lowered, restricted, or revoked because of Credit tightening measures, within days of the company being notified of losses of another Lender.

In closing please consider others (most of whom are completely unknown to us) that have differing points of view and reasons for such.

[Orbit Orange]

3) Be patient

I've disagreed with you on a few issues but here I'm in full agreement. Patience is a key. Now that doesn't mean wait for a decade for changes but changes don't happen overnight so to speak. I've said it before in this instant gratification, one-click away society, you can get something you want in literally seconds. It doesn't happen that way in the car world. Plans are laid out years in advance. If something comes up that requires a change it takes a whole lot more that what we see. Change is happening it just seems to be happening at a snails pace.

GM can do decent sports cars, which is indicative of Lutz's love of them. However, they have absolutely no idea how to manage Pontiac. There is no reason why Chevy has a turbo Cobalt, and Pontiac has a vanilla G5. Pontiac performance should come first, then give Chevy the leftovers and half-baked sporty products for SS. The top trim level of a Pontiac should be the sportiest car in whatever class it lives in.

Again I couldn't be in further agreement. With gas prices now this points to Pontiac becoming a niche brand if it goes in this direction. Fine by me. That makes 2 we're in agreement wes.

IT IS UNFAIR: To ask anyone what “we” (meaning: outsiders, uninformed, any yes the unqualified, without private boardroom facts) would do to turn around GM. I have been self-employed, a Corporate General Manager, and a Board member, each company is different and has its own inherent issues. However, when losses (on paper or cash) continue, it indicates serious and a possibly fatal situation may result, if emergency directives and corrections are not completed immediately.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. It is fair to voice our opinions on what we think would help. Sure 99% of us are blind to the inner machinations of GM corporate goings-on. What we can offer is what we the CUSTOMER or end-user would like to see. That is basically what any company is about, pleasing the customer. Don't please the customer and you will soon find yourself out of business. If GM ignores VALID pleas from it's customers they are setting themselves up to fail. Feedback is critical.

[tollytime]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Funny, I've got 47K miles on it and it's never been in for warrantee work. I have heard from multiple owners as well that have the same story. No problems. It's been a great car for me.

Never owned a Lexus or BMW and I never want to. If entrance into that club is being a "holier than thou" douche then I'm out.

And BFD that you've owned 80 kajillion cars. Just tells me you've never actually got to know one just moved on to the next without even caring.

If you want to stop the blow-hard BS about being a know-it-all big shot billion car model owner and actually say what you think GM should do then great. If not take your infantile chest-thumping caveman antics back to that used car lot. Put up or shut up, but knowing all the hot air that comes out of a used car salemans mouth I've pretty much already figured out all I'll hear is verbal diarrhea. Care to prove me wrong and actually post up what you'd do to turn around GM? Pointing out what NOT to do doesn't count.

I think I made it obvious that GM has to start finding out what the customer wants instead of trying to cram something down the publics throat. Why didn't they build the public a new GTO? They rebadged a Monaro because the Australian plant had excess capacity and it wouldn't cost them squat!! It didn't even have any hood scoops!! Go look in your trunk!! I could of installed a better gas tank from my fishing boat. That's abandoning your customer!! Your car is the perfect example of how cheap and careless GM has become. My GTO was a bag of leftover parts from a failed sports car market GM couldn't compete in. You don't jump into the high end sports car arena with a two door Lumina and think the public won't know any better. It is a Lumina by the way, just not an American Lumina.
I do detect some jealousy in your tone, you really got yourself worked up buddy. settle down Francis.

[Orbit Orange]

I think I made it obvious that GM has to start finding out what the customer wants instead of trying to cram something down the publics throat. Why didn't they build the public a new GTO? They rebadged a Monaro because the Australian plant had excess capacity and it wouldn't cost them squat!! It didn't even have any hood scoops!! Go look in your trunk!! I could of installed a better gas tank from my fishing boat. That's abandoning your customer!! Your car is the perfect example of how cheap and careless GM has become. My GTO was a bag of leftover parts from a failed sports car market GM couldn't compete in. You don't jump into the high end sports car arena with a two door Lumina and think the public won't know any better. It is a Lumina by the way, just not an American Lumina.
I do detect some jealousy in your tone, you really got yourself worked up buddy. settle down Francis.

You say you are an "old guy" but you act like you're a teenager. I'm done with the ignorance spewing from your keyboard. Nothing you babble on about detracts from my owning experience, in fact it only solidifies my resolve. So in closing have fun selling those used cars. I'll make sure to smoke a few Junkstangs in the near future in your memory. Settle your ownself down Nancy.

Now back to anyone that wants to offer up some real insight. I like a few of the suggestions that have been offered, any others?

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Frankly, I don't know if GM is capable of selling luxury cars. Buick needs to be divorced from Pontiac and GMC if it wants to be taken seriously against Lexus. Cadillacs cannot share showroom space with Chevrolets if they want to be taken seriously. Premium product needs to come with a premium customer experience, and this means keeping customers away from people buying Cobalts and Silverados. Is this elitist and snooty? Heck yes, but that's how luxury products work. If GM can't see this, then they have no business selling luxury cars.

The B-P-G setup is working in California and if GM can build on the vehicles that sell out here like the Solstice and GMC Denali line with a Buick lineup more like the Enclave it would be even better. Buick needs a RX350 competitor and I think the new Invicta will do well against the ES350. Pontiac needs a small-mid size RWD Coupe/Sedan to really get SoCal buyers interests. GMC needs to move more upmarket with a focus on Land Rover and BMW SUV's (good SoCal sellers) and expand its line on the lower end with off-road focused SUV's like the FJ40 and Xterra (both sell well here).

It is not the B-P-G concept that is bad, it is the product.

[Orbit Orange]

Pontiac needs a small-mid size RWD Coupe/Sedan to really get SoCal buyers interests.

I've thought the same as it has interest to others outside the SoCal area (albeit not as much) as well. It could really be a nice niche product for Pontiac.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Again I couldn't be in further agreement. With gas prices now this points to Pontiac becoming a niche brand if it goes in this direction. Fine by me. That makes 2 we're in agreement wes.

There is absolutely no reason why Pontiac needs to become a niche brand if they keep their eye on performance. Many cars are incredibly frugal yet also fun to drive, which ought to be Pontiac's primary focus.

When we think of Pontiac performance, the Trans Am and GTO come to mind. Cars like the Lotus Elise and Subaru WRX both get good fuel mileage, but are also very fun to drive.

Pontiac can have plenty of vehicles, but they all need to feel sporty, look sporty, and deliver best in class sportiness. If they have deliver that, then the brand can begin to recover some credibility.

If I go into a Subaru showroom, I can be guaranteed that no matter which product I choose, I'm going to get all-wheel drive, decent fuel mileage, safety, and sound handling.

If I go into a BMW showroom, I can be guaranteed that no matter what product I choose, it will be the sportiest entry in whatever class it competes in.

If I go into a Pontiac showroom, what the heck is sporty about a G6 GT? It looks decent, but it's hardly fun to drive.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

The B-P-G setup is working in California and if GM can build on the vehicles that sell out here like the Solstice and GMC Denali line with a Buick lineup more like the Enclave it would be even better. Buick needs a RX350 competitor and I think the new Invicta will do well against the ES350. Pontiac needs a small-mid size RWD Coupe/Sedan to really get SoCal buyers interests. GMC needs to move more upmarket with a focus on Land Rover and BMW SUV's (good SoCal sellers) and expand its line on the lower end with off-road focused SUV's like the FJ40 and Xterra (both sell well here).

It is not the B-P-G concept that is bad, it is the product.

If Buick wants to be taken seriously as a luxury brand, it cannot be in the same showroom as any product under $28,000. If I buy a Buick Invicta (such a great name), I don't want to be drinking stale coffee next to some punk with a G5, or some blue-collar nobody in a Sierra.

I want a customer service experience on par with what I can expect at a Lexus dealership. Polished marble floors, espresso machine, sales and service staff falling all over themselves to make you happy.

Does this make me a snotty elitist? It surely does, but people who are dropping coin on a luxury product want the WHOLE experience. If Buick seriously believes it can continue selling bench-seated tape-deck equipped Century-successor Lacrosse and Lucerne models and survive, then they are dead wrong.

This will eat the ES350's lunch all day long (ESPECIALLY with AWD), but nobody is going to want to trade in the Lexus customer service experience. Either BPG steps up, Buick gets divorced, or everyone loses.

[Orbit Orange]

There is absolutely no reason why Pontiac needs to become a niche brand if they keep their eye on performance. Many cars are incredibly frugal yet also fun to drive, which ought to be Pontiac's primary focus.

True but Pontiac cannot also abandon it's RWD V8 loving crowd as well and this is the niche crowd I'm talking about. Sure have the smaller, lighter, good handling, good performing 4's and 6's in the lineup but keep the big boys there as well. Funny you mention this but when I see Mazda and what they offer it seems they are actually out-"Pontiac ing" what Pontiac puts out on the small end. The Mazdaspeed stuff is really what Pontiac should be trying to do with it's smaller cars. Pontiac will never sell like it sold in the 60's and 70's. It has to find a new spot somewhere between a niche brand and those old numbers. Product again is key, and you are correct I've been one of the biggest detractors of the lame G6. The fugly GXP edition of the G6 with the buck teeth and whale tail spoiler is what is wrong with Pontiac right now. Pontiac needs better product.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

True but Pontiac cannot also abandon it's RWD V8 loving crowd as well and this is the niche crowd I'm talking about. Sure have the smaller, lighter, good handling, good performing 4's and 6's in the lineup but keep the big boys there as well. Funny you mention this but when I see Mazda and what they offer it seems they are actually out-"Pontiac ing" what Pontiac puts out on the small end. The Mazdaspeed stuff is really what Pontiac should be trying to do with it's smaller cars. Pontiac will never sell like it sold in the 60's and 70's. It has to find a new spot somewhere between a niche brand and those old numbers. Product again is key, and you are correct I've been one of the biggest detractors of the lame G6. The fugly GXP edition of the G6 with the buck teeth and whale tail spoiler is what is wrong with Pontiac right now. Pontiac needs better product.

Exactly. Mazda appears to be out-Pontiac-ing Pontiac. Another interesting thing to consider... although Ford runs Mazda, they have them set up as a separate entity with its own product development managers. They use all Ford hardware and engines, but since they operate semi-separately, they can deliver outstanding sporty products, all while enjoying the economies of scale from their larger corporate parent.

Sounds a lot like the GM Divisions until the early 1980's...

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by wescoent

If Buick wants to be taken seriously as a luxury brand, it cannot be in the same showroom as any product under $28,000. If I buy a Buick Invicta (such a great name), I don't want to be drinking stale coffee next to some punk with a G5, or some blue-collar nobody in a Sierra.

I want a customer service experience on par with what I can expect at a Lexus dealership. Polished marble floors, espresso machine, sales and service staff falling all over themselves to make you happy.

Does this make me a snotty elitist? It surely does, but people who are dropping coin on a luxury product want the WHOLE experience. If Buick seriously believes it can continue selling bench-seated tape-deck equipped Century-successor Lacrosse and Lucerne models and survive, then they are dead wrong.

This will eat the ES350's lunch all day long (ESPECIALLY with AWD), but nobody is going to want to trade in the Lexus customer service experience. Either BPG steps up, Buick gets divorced, or everyone loses.

There won't be a G5 in a proper Pontiac lineup, it starts with the Solstice moves up to Firebird and Torana (Alpha), then GTO/Grand Prix (Sigma).

Buick starts with Skyhawk/Skylark (Delta), Regal Coupe (Ep SWB), Invicta (Ep LWB), Gran Sport (Zeta SWB) then Electra (Zeta LWB)

GMC Sierra buyers lean more to SLT trim levels than WT and Denali buyers are looking for an upscale buying experience and are familiar with the Lexus, BMW and MB experience as that is the car they drive.

Again, it is the product that needs updating - not the sales channel.