A shocking number, but not a death knell

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by marinerbc

Incorrect at best, libelous at worst.

No one but NO ONE invested more money in trucks and SUVs over the past 5 years in North America than Toyota did. They had Jim Press build them an overpriced and late plant in Texas for Tundra production, and now they too are forced to shutter the thing for 3 months, because nobody wants a Tundra either.

Sequoias down, all SUVs are down. GM is lucky that they had the GMT-900s introduced when they did, and that they didn't have to spend 2 billion to build a plant to do it.

Nice try though.

Yeah, one thing this does is shut down Toyota's Big SUV/Truck plans. They had the big new Sequoia coming out too. This downturn is hitting everyone, some to more extent then others.

[tollytime]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

It may seem that way to some but I beg to differ. GM has brought me the GTO, a soon to be (2009) purchase of a G8 and hopefully shortly thereafter a G8 ST as well. It has given it's truck fans a plethora of choices and models. It has given it's Corvette fans cool choices. Camaro fans are soon to be rewarded. The new Malibu seems to be a long-awaited reward for mid-size front drive family car fans. Cadillac has rewarded fans with the CTS. There are lots of vehicles rewarding the fans out there. Does it reward all? NO. It's obvious you feel slighted and there must be a vehicle you desire that they don't have. Please don't issue blanket statements that say GM has abandoned their owners. They haven't. Out of curiosity, what do you own and drive?

Guess I'll try to find the time to watch. You'll excuse me if I find it hard to put much creedence though in a news network thinking it can run a car company. Maybe it will make some points though. Thanks for the heads-up.

The G8 is a niche car at best. Most people prefer FWD or AWD in the midwest. Camaro?? brother can you spare $40,000?? Trucks?? The truck market is over as we know it!! Trucks will be for contractors and delivery service. I'm talking about GM being competitive in a $5.00 gallon market!!
I'm talking about the cars people really buy!!! I'm talking about the cars that stole the market from GM!! Like Honda!! Toyota!!! Lexus!!! You think Toyota and Lexus buyers are ever coming back to Buick and Cadillac? Do you really see the Honda Civic buyer considering a Cobalt. Will a person who has owned four Honda Accords in a row even think about a Malibu?
GTO?? I had one!! That car was a complete failure and money loser for GM. You can make fun of the Mustang all you want, but at least Ford makes money on that car and you can still buy it. If the GTO was such a great car, why is it gone? Car companies don't stop building cars people want.

[Orbit Orange]

The G8 is a niche car at best. Most people prefer FWD or AWD in the midwest. Camaro?? brother can you spare $40,000?? Trucks?? The truck market is over as we know it!! Trucks will be for contractors and delivery service. I'm talking about GM being competitive in a $5.00 gallon market!!
I'm talking about the cars people really buy!!! I'm talking about the cars that stole the market from GM!! Like Honda!! Toyota!!! Lexus!!! You think Toyota and Lexus buyers are ever coming back to Buick and Cadillac? Do you really see the Honda Civic buyer considering a Cobalt. Will a person who has owned four Honda Accords in a row even think about a Malibu?
GTO?? I had one!! That car was a complete failure and money loser for GM. You can make fun of the Mustang all you want, but at least Ford makes money on that car and you can still buy it. If the GTO was such a great car, why is it gone? Car companies don't stop building cars people want.

Hmm, where to begin with this rant. My first instinct is to dismiss it as utter tripe but here goes a response anyway.

You said GM abandoned the American driver. I gave you examples of several niche brands that are given to enthusiasts, as well as the bread and butter truck market example. So they don't count? Oh only in your world I guess.

5 dollar a gallon market??? Gas is slipping below 4 bucks as we speak. I filled up on premium today for $3.76 a gallon. That's not to say the price won't rise again soon but at least get your facts straight and say 4 dollars a gallon.

40,000 dollar Camaro??? Lay off the crack. Maybe for the balls out loaded up SS but for the V6's NO FLIPPIN WAY.

Saying the truck market is over is retarded. The two dealerships I've been into recently have stated the SUV market is down/dying but people are still buying trucks. There will always be the want/need for a full sized truck for towing weekend toys as well as the worksite. Get real

You never owned a GTO, stop talking out your butt. To say it was a complete failure only proves you were dropped on your head too many times as a child. And where did I make fun of the Mustang? Are you actually reading my posts or just hallucinating in your own little universe.

And by your own convoluted, faulted "reasoning" I guess the Model-T was a complete failure since it's not on the market anymore.

I would suggest you go buy a Honda and leave the real cars to those of us who appreciate them. I don't think I'd like to have someone of your limited and narrow vision driving a GM product anyway. A nice boring silver Honda Civic would be good for you. You probably already drive one anyway. Come up with something real and we'll debate but this garbage you just rebutted with is just that rubbish.

[Buickman]

did I tell you how I got these scars?

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

I would suggest you go buy a Honda and leave the real cars to those of us who appreciate them. I don't think I'd like to have someone of your limited and narrow vision driving a GM product anyway. A nice boring silver Honda Civic would be good for you. You probably already drive one anyway. Come up with something real and we'll debate but this garbage you just rebutted with is just that rubbish.

I needed to read something like this; thank you, Orbit Orange, and hope your Goat shines a little more in the starlight tonight.

[Drive571]

There's no doubt that Toyota (and Honda, and others) invested heavily in trucks at a very bad time, and regarding that specific market, showed no more foresight than GM. That said, you'd also have a very hard time arguing that Toyota didn't do a better job covering its rear end on the fuel-efficient side of the market. Well-rounded product portfolios are the best insurance against unstable economies.

Everyone's hurting this quarter (except MINI and Nissan, IIRC), but things are approaching crisis proportions at GM. It's a disheartening time for car fans.

Regarding the above debate, I too was a fan of the underappreciated GTO. A much better car than the 'Stang in all respects save styling, marketing, and shift action. But let's be realistic; niche cars aren't going to save GM. Given that most people don't care about/can't afford fast or flashy vehicles, the key to survival really is to build a better Honda Civic.

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted by Drive571

There's no doubt that Toyota (and Honda, and others) invested heavily in trucks at a very bad time, .

tell me all about the Honda truck investments gone sour.

[Orbit Orange]

did I tell you how I got these scars?

Huh????

But let's be realistic; niche cars aren't going to save GM. Given that most people don't care about/can't afford fast or flashy vehicles, the key to survival really is to build a better Honda Civic.

Noone ever said they would. I was just using them as a point that GM does make vehicles for GM fans and hasn't abandoned them as T'time would have you believe. Better stuff is coming down the pipeline. It just doesn't seem to be coming fast enough for a lot of the instant gratification 20 somethings on the board. But yes GM does need to have more competitive "bread and butter" vehicles. Malibu is a good start. Looks like the Cruze will hopefully continue the trend. It's coming. I'm just hoping GM can hang on.

I needed to read something like this; thank you, Orbit Orange, and hope your Goat shines a little more in the starlight tonight.

Well if I brightened one person's day it was worth it. And the Goat is in the garage tonight tucked in safe and sound. It gets tired of beating up on Mustangs.

[tollytime]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Hmm, where to begin with this rant. My first instinct is to dismiss it as utter tripe but here goes a response anyway.

You said GM abandoned the American driver. I gave you examples of several niche brands that are given to enthusiasts, as well as the bread and butter truck market example. So they don't count? Oh only in your world I guess.

5 dollar a gallon market??? Gas is slipping below 4 bucks as we speak. I filled up on premium today for $3.76 a gallon. That's not to say the price won't rise again soon but at least get your facts straight and say 4 dollars a gallon.

40,000 dollar Camaro??? Lay off the crack. Maybe for the balls out loaded up SS but for the V6's NO FLIPPIN WAY.

Saying the truck market is over is retarded. The two dealerships I've been into recently have stated the SUV market is down/dying but people are still buying trucks. There will always be the want/need for a full sized truck for towing weekend toys as well as the worksite. Get real

You never owned a GTO, stop talking out your butt. To say it was a complete failure only proves you were dropped on your head too many times as a child. And where did I make fun of the Mustang? Are you actually reading my posts or just hallucinating in your own little universe.

And by your own convoluted, faulted "reasoning" I guess the Model-T was a complete failure since it's not on the market anymore.

I would suggest you go buy a Honda and leave the real cars to those of us who appreciate them. I don't think I'd like to have someone of your limited and narrow vision driving a GM product anyway. A nice boring silver Honda Civic would be good for you. You probably already drive one anyway. Come up with something real and we'll debate but this garbage you just rebutted with is just that rubbish.

Ok, I don't want to start a pissing contest on what you own, but my license plate has a small "D" in the middle of it. I've owned more GM cars than you will ever have in a lifetime, unless your a used car dealer like me. I owned a new GTO, get over it, really not a big deal. I purchased it new from the dealer. Your not the only guy who got suckered. I've got a stack of warranty work orders to prove it. I drove mine to the auction and sold it to a GM dealer. I drive all types of vehicles everyday. Some are old and some are almost new. You may own a GTO, but have you owned a Lexus or a BMW. Let me tell you son, I can't write and I may be an old fool, but GM stock is at 10 bucks. Something is very wrong at GM. They went wrong somewhere. A lot of buyers took their business somewhere else. I don't even want to talk resale values with you, it's to hard for people to understand.

I just assumed you would make fun of the Mustang since I owned around 70 of them. The first Camaro's will be going over $40,000, I'm sure of that. I'm just saying that the force behind General Motors has become ignorant to needs of the general public.
I like the Corvette, it's hard to sell them in the fall, that's why I usually buy one in the Spring.

[Orbit Orange]

Your not the only guy who got suckered. I've got a stack of warranty work orders to prove it.

Funny, I've got 47K miles on it and it's never been in for warrantee work. I have heard from multiple owners as well that have the same story. No problems. It's been a great car for me.

Never owned a Lexus or BMW and I never want to. If entrance into that club is being a "holier than thou" douche then I'm out.

And BFD that you've owned 80 kajillion cars. Just tells me you've never actually got to know one just moved on to the next without even caring.

If you want to stop the blow-hard BS about being a know-it-all big shot billion car model owner and actually say what you think GM should do then great. If not take your infantile chest-thumping caveman antics back to that used car lot. Put up or shut up, but knowing all the hot air that comes out of a used car salemans mouth I've pretty much already figured out all I'll hear is verbal diarrhea. Care to prove me wrong and actually post up what you'd do to turn around GM? Pointing out what NOT to do doesn't count.

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Funny, I've got 47K miles on it and it's never been in for warrantee work. I have heard from multiple owners as well that have the same story. No problems. It's been a great car for me.

Never owned a Lexus or BMW and I never want to. If entrance into that club is being a "holier than thou" douche then I'm out.

And BFD that you've owned 80 kajillion cars. Just tells me you've never actually got to know one just moved on to the next without even caring.

If you want to stop the blow-hard BS about being a know-it-all big shot billion car model owner and actually say what you think GM should do then great. If not take your infantile chest-thumping caveman antics back to that used car lot. Put up or shut up, but knowing all the hot air that comes out of a used car salemans mouth I've pretty much already figured out all I'll hear is verbal diarrhea. Care to prove me wrong and actually post up what you'd do to turn around GM? Pointing out what NOT to do doesn't count.

Nominated for "post of the quarter". Brilliant.

[markform]

Originally Posted by tollytime

Let me tell you son, I can't write and I may be an old fool, but GM stock is at 10 bucks. Something is very wrong at GM. They went wrong somewhere. A lot of buyers took their business somewhere else. I don't even want to talk resale values with you, it's to hard for people to understand.

Maybe I can explain resale values to them.

My cousin just unloaded his 2005 STS. Over $50k new, he got under $13k for it. Back in '05, had he bought a $25k Honda Accord, that would have drawn about the same. He now drives a loaded 2009 Camry. He's never going back to GM.

GM billed the STS as some kind of BMW killer. But the only thing it's killing is GM.

[rsinsel]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Could you elaborate on these wholesale changes please? I'm curious as to what will bring GM back to health.

The stupid statement the other day about 4 cylinders would be a start.

[Orbit Orange]

Maybe I can explain resale values to them.

We already know. I don't buy cars as an "investment" anyway. I buy what I find useful AND what I love to drive. A car isn't a toaster to me. There is more to life than worrying about what the resale value of a car is. People hung up on resale values are missing out on the car owning experience.

The stupid statement the other day about 4 cylinders would be a start.

I must have missed it. Who's statement and what about 4 cylinders? Fill me in.

Nominated for "post of the quarter". Brilliant.

Great, and they can make the check out to .......

Really what I'm trying to get at here is to see if someone has some concrete steps GM could take to return to health. When I got to looking through this thread I started to see, "GM SUCKS, GM HAS ABANDONED IT'S CUSTOMERS, WAGONER IS AN IDIOT, Etc. Etc." That's fine but noone who posted up that stuff posted any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism with it. Should I be shocked? No, it's easy to complain about something and not offer any answers. What takes real intelligence is to realize the problem then offer a well-thought prescription that could change what that sickness is.

I'll admit I don't have the whole cure. I have a few thoughts that I think would continue the health at GM. Just little things like improving interiors on all models. Offering customers a choice of colors on models other than the usual black, white, 8 shades of gray and an extra cost red color. Making niche vehicles to keep the fans contented. Trying to limit rebates on models as much as possible. Contacting actual owners of GM vehicles (many not just a few) to see what they like and dislike and what they might to change things. Increasing fuel economy by dropping weight of vehicles. These are all things GM and others know, that's why I say I don't have the whole cure. If people have ideas to answers I'd like to hear them expressed. What gets old is this whole GM is bad, I hate GM, blah blah blah. Complaints aren't going to revive GM, ANSWERS are.

[hotrod1949]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

We already know. I don't buy cars as an "investment" anyway. I buy what I find useful AND what I love to drive. A car isn't a toaster to me. There is more to life than worrying about what the resale value of a car is. People hung up on resale values are missing out on the car owning experience.

No, but many people do buy cars as appliances, and they want decent trade in value 3,4 or 5 years down the road. At the moment, the only Detroit3 models with decent resale are the niche vehicles.

Really what I'm trying to get at here is to see if someone has some concrete steps GM could take to return to health. When I got to looking through this thread I started to see, "GM SUCKS, GM HAS ABANDONED IT'S CUSTOMERS, WAGONER IS AN IDIOT, Etc. Etc." That's fine but noone who posted up that stuff posted any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism with it. Should I be shocked? No, it's easy to complain about something and not offer any answers. What takes real intelligence is to realize the problem then offer a well-thought prescription that could change what that sickness is.

I'll admit I don't have the whole cure. I have a few thoughts that I think would continue the health at GM. Just little things like improving interiors on all models. Offering customers a choice of colors on models other than the usual black, white, 8 shades of gray and an extra cost red color. Making niche vehicles to keep the fans contented. Trying to limit rebates on models as much as possible. Contacting actual owners of GM vehicles (many not just a few) to see what they like and dislike and what they might to change things. Increasing fuel economy by dropping weight of vehicles. These are all things GM and others know, that's why I say I don't have the whole cure. If people have ideas to answers I'd like to hear them expressed. What gets old is this whole GM is bad, I hate GM, blah blah blah. Complaints aren't going to revive GM, ANSWERS are.

GM needs to hold MANY consumer clinics, the exec and engineering staff needs to live with the competitions product,day in and day out, to find out why people want them, and then start to blend those attributes into GM product.