Saving Detroit: Keep the $50 billion, rewrite CAFE instead

[AMcA]

Originally Posted by MrCritical

Gotta take issue with that one.

The manufacturers have taken advantage of time allowances before CAFE increases to build bigger, heavier, and faster full size trucks and SUV's.

Who really needs a 6000lb. SUV? A 400 hp pickup truck? And I'm not just talking about domestics.

Instead of concentrating on 5 and 6 speed automatic transmissions and multi-displacement engines, manufacturers should be building 2000lb lighter light duty trucks and 1000 lb lighter automobiles.

The Dodge Challenger V-8 weighs well over 4000lbs, more than it did 38 YEARS AGO. What's wrong with this picture?

Don't worry - nobody's going to want a 6000 lbs SUV when gas is $4.

You want 1000 lbs lighter cars? Repeal safety legislation. We build 'em like tanks now, because the gov't requires it.

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

So far CAFE has done NOTHING to limit your/our choices. The past version of CAFE didn't stop the Big 3 from making trucks and SUVs. The new version of CAFE 35 doesn't take effect for twelve years!!! It too will have little or no effect. By that time all vehicle makers will have a fleet averaging > 35 mpg..... or the buying public will have sent them to bankruptcy court.

Just to nitpick a bit, the past version of CAFE was terribly crafted and actually encouraged automakers to push fuel inefficient trucks and SUVs over automobiles. The term "crossover" was even invented to describe vehicles which were designed specifically to game CAFE (for example the PT Cruiser & Toyota Matrix).

Of course this "loophole" had been known about for years, and the automakers lobbied hard to keep it because they wanted to push sales into more profitable (and tariff-protected) segments. But the end result has been disastrous -- the Big Three is way over-invested in trucks and under-invested in cars and has re-assumed the terrible "gas guzzler" perception they worked so hard in the 1980s to get away from.

People talk about 'free choice', but just treating cars and trucks on the same level in the new CAFE will radically reshape the Big Three's marketing efforts. If they start advertising competitive cars, people might just choose to buy them.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by F14CRAZY

CAFE really is stupid. The consumers and buying market should determine what vehicles automakers will produce

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gas prices can change virtually over night (especially if supply from the Middle East is interrupted suddenly) and it takes about 4-5 years to bring out new, and especially radically different, automotive designs to react to such changes.

Does anyone NOT think that oil is potentially a threat to our national security? If it is - then it is the government’s role to move us along in a more secure direction. Being less dependent on foreign oil is widely thought to be a good idea - no? Do you realize the about 94% of the oil we consume goes into our vehicles? 94% of the problem is fuel economy.

Is it really wrong to task some of the brightest engineering minds in the world (U.S. Engineers) to solve this problem? Is it really impossible to give customers what they want and fuel economy? I don't think so. When was the last time a customer asked specifically for a vehicle that weighed over 5000 Lbs or got less than 10 MPG?

Stop whining and make more efficient cars that meet all of the regulations and customer requirements. Almost over night (not literally) the dual mode hybrid SUV's have increased city mileage by nearly 50%. I thought it couldn't be done - I thought CAFE was wildly impossible. We are a year or so away from a car that will allow 78% of us to buy ZERO gasoline (save the occasional long trip). The auto makers have said it was nearly impossible to raise CAFÉ even a few MPG and now we have a car that burns virtually zero gas and requires zero investment in new infrastructure to charge it. How does a large percentage of Americans buying ZERO oil affect our national security? We can wait for gas prices to climb over 4 - 5 - 6 dollars a gallon and then wait another several years for the automakers to react - or we could use a little critical thinking and do the right thing proactively.

Can't be done - oh really? It is time to stop selling short American ingenuity, stop whining and do the right thing for the country. People will buy them if they meet the customer’s needs and desires. Once again - I doubt anyone is asking for 5000 + Lbs and 10 or less MPG.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by MrCritical

Who really needs a 6000lb. SUV? A 400 hp pickup truck? And I'm not just talking about domestics.

Absolute nonsense.

If I, as a single person, decide I want a 6000lb SUV 400hp pickup truck, it is my right, my choice, and my decision. We live in what is known as a 'FREE' society.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by MrCritical

Ever held an air bag? Hold a bumper from the '70 Challenger, a seat frame, and one from a current model vehicle?

You have the added weight of air bags, but the bumpers, ect are way lighter in a current vehicle.

I agree that newer cars are pigs, but look at the structure they have. Yes airbags are light but put 6 in a car and it adds up. Ever held the a/c unit out of a old challenger? Oh yeah most didn't have it but now all the options are standard, its not a matter of a few heavy things, its a matter of lots of lighter things, crumble zones,sound deadening, power windows,power locks, cruise, tlt/telescoping columns, big stereos, lots of speakers computers, airbags, a/c, metal trim, facias are light but the real mass is behind them in steel encased foam filled zones, independent rear suspension, bodies that won't rust in a couple years, bigger wheels, tires and brakes plus parts to support the performance everyone DEMANDS (lest they get creamed in the magazine shootouts) and be as safe as the government LEGISLATES.

The problem is it keeps spiraling up as everyone has to keep outdoing everybody else to get the sale and the more quiet, safer and luxurious it is, the more it weighs. Same with trucks...I'd be up for a lower tow rating, slightly smaller, more aero truck as long as I can still haul stuff around but when was the last time somebody actually REDUCED a rating or REMOVED a feature package?? And if they do everyone screams about the missing >insert item here< so that is the way it goes, unless you want to buy $100,000 lightweight material pickup trucks to save 5.00 every refill.

[mjd1001]

Originally Posted by roteague

Absolute nonsense.

If I, as a single person, decide I want a 6000lb SUV 400hp pickup truck, it is my right, my choice, and my decision. We live in what is known as a 'FREE' society.

Your response is almost nonsense in itself, as there is nothing that is a pure 'free' society, except for total anarchy. By putting 'FREE' in quotations, I expect you are saying that the word 'free' is what you decide it is. The most popular definition of 'Free' I know of would be to descrive a society where one can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect anyone else in a negative manner. Driving a 6000lb SUV with 400hp, with the current market conditions, DOES have a large effect on others. Unless that person is willing to obey the traffic laws 100% of the time, it will effect other people. Unless oil and gasoline were unlimited, it does effect other people. If you have another definition of what a "free" society is, I'd like to hear it.

[edsuski]

Originally Posted by AMcA

Don't worry - nobody's going to want a 6000 lbs SUV when gas is $4.

You want 1000 lbs lighter cars? Repeal safety legislation. We build 'em like tanks now, because the gov't requires it.

Completely untrue. The regulations require crash protection - they do not specify mass at all. We need to be creative and solve the problem. Stop using regulation as an excuse for the lack of creativity.

[Caleb02]

Originally Posted by roteague

Absolute nonsense.

If I, as a single person, decide I want a 6000lb SUV 400hp pickup truck, it is my right, my choice, and my decision. We live in what is known as a 'FREE' society.

i think a nice 20hp ford f-series or chevy silverado wil do nicely with a 1 cycldener engine on each wheel.

[Buickman]

the cities I visit across America are full of Honda and Toyota. Wagoner is a crook who has intentionally driven GM down. no one could possibly be as stupid as to lose so much market share and see our once great company suffer so greatly at the hands of once simply annoying companies.

wake up America and realize what has happened while you have been sound asleep!

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by roteague

Absolute nonsense.

If I, as a single person, decide I want a 6000lb SUV 400hp pickup truck, it is my right, my choice, and my decision. We live in what is known as a 'FREE' society.

Yes that is absolutely true that you can buya 6000# pickup.
However it is also absolutely true that the various governments, Federal, state and local can limit your use of the roads with that vehicle. Each can set up laws describing what kind of vehicles may use the public roads.
You do have the freedom to drive this truck however and whereever you want...on your own property.

In this case the better good of society supercedes your persosnal choice. That specifically was written into the Constitution at its origin.

The President and his advisors have decided that unlimited access to gas guzzling vehicles puts this country at risk. It's his duty and responsibility then to propose a law to limit that access. He gave Congress its marching orders and the Congress passed the law he wanted. It really is that simple. In fact he does have more data and info than any of us individually. This finanancial crisis is no different.

[Buickman]

give the companies whatever they want as long as Wagoner gets the boot.

[roteague]

Originally Posted by mjd1001

Your response is almost nonsense in itself, as there is nothing that is a pure 'free' society,

I don't go for the "chicken-little" mentality that some of you have; it is like you are afraid of your own shadow - what a sad way to live. Freedom doesn't mean that YOU decide what is right and what is wrong for me or anyone else - short of my decision harming others, and I have yet to find any proof that driving a 6000lb, 400hp pickup truck hurts others.

[jaywestfall]

CAFE should be repealed or determined unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

The market should decide what vehicles companies produce for their customers not the federal government.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by mjd1001

Your response is almost nonsense in itself, as there is nothing that is a pure 'free' society, except for total anarchy. Unless oil and gasoline were unlimited, it does effect other people. If you have another definition of what a "free" society is, I'd like to hear it.

Your response as well is nonsense, do you have kids?? Do you know how much raw material and pollution they will cause over their lifetimes just from diapers and using water and flushing the toilet? I think everybody should stop having kids as they affect other people. doh.

The guy who decides to buy his 6000 pound suv pays for his choice at the pump. He might have a larger volume of emissions per mile travelled but maybe he doesn't drive as much as you so the net result is the same. Cars today are incredibly clean, so your father would have polluted more in his older car, he should have been banned!!

Its goes around and around, can't you guys see that?? Such a simple view. There is no correct answer because everyone has different needs and wants, and hey guess what its not your opinion that matters when somebody else is making their choice. Get over it already.

[TimR]

Originally Posted by edsuski

Completely untrue. The regulations require crash protection - they do not specify mass at all. We need to be creative and solve the problem. Stop using regulation as an excuse for the lack of creativity.

How do you propose we meet the crash standards exactly? Crumple zones, soft tissue protection (interiors), rollover protection, airbags, smart seatbelts, impact protection most of that needs padding, support and collapsing structure to absorb the energy...so lets see some creativity, how do you propose we replace all that?

Talk is cheap.